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Post by foreveryoung on Oct 14, 2011 13:27:55 GMT -5
Two reasons:
1. Piss POOR boooking
2. Triple H
Punk has nothing to do with it.
Sometimes I wish Russo and Ferrera were back.. Yea they smurfed some things up but at least they could book that anti hero properly and they were a good team with Vince. To be honest, I would take Vince and Ed over any of these yahoos they got back there now.
What HAVEN'T they screwed up?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2011 13:33:02 GMT -5
This thread is about as off as the Warrior. Punk has only gotten more popular over time.
As far as this angle goes, E's unclear about EVERYTHING they do. This story's had so many elements thrown in that it's gotten confusing and stupid. Over the past 3 months alone we've had:
-Punk leading some kind of crusade against HHH.
-Miz and Truth getting fired, threatening lawsuits then getting reinstated like THAT.
-Johnny Ace and Kevin Nash coming back to TV after God knows how long, only to undermine HHH from behind the scenes. Nash suddenly vanishes, leaving a dangling plot thread.
-The WWE roster suddenly becoming whiny bitches and collectively walking out on the company.
-And somewhere in all this, John Cena and Alberto Del Rio are involved.
But through all that, humanoids both smark and mark have stayed glued to the screen and their seats, hoping some sense will be made out of all this. Everyone's heat has stayed very consistent.
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Oct 14, 2011 13:54:14 GMT -5
There's the key word. "WWE Universe". People wanted to convince themselves that while he was under his first contract, even after he'd been there for 5 years, that was was still somehow an "outsider", not actually part of WWE, but the "guy from the indies" "taking down" WWE. Him re-upping, plus the face turn, now he's a "system" guy. He's not "indie" anymore. He's fully integrated into WWE, and it's become impossible to argue that he's not. His face turn has nothing to do with it to me, the fact his promos became cringeworthy and his aims as a character became very flawed and frustrating, that's what made me and quite a few others go "wait, this is crap? How does this make sense?" His face turn was in the works, we knew that, but the way the storyline has progressed since August has made him look like a joke, him losing the title? Okay, got Del Rio over for being a bastard, him ignoring the title in favour of facing Triple H in a losing contest only to prove he knew his whole antics were for nothing and saying "Okay, I blamed you for everything, I was an arsehole with no reason to do it," makes him look like an absolute idiot as a character. It's frustrating, going from a character sort of shooting with true stuff to becoming a mindless conspiracy theorist with no fact behind what he says? He's not R-Truth so obviously that doesn't work. Basically him as a wrestler = fine, his character/this storyline just died on its arse in regards to him 6 weeks back. I'm not saying that the smarks are turning against him because he's a face, I'm saying that his character has had to change because of the face turn. He can't quasi-shoot on everyone anymore. And the more important part is that him re-upping his contract has pretty much made it official that he's a "WWE" guy, and no longer the "indie outsider" (though I'd posit that from the moment he was moved off of WWECW, the last vestiges of that illusion were shattered, myself.), he's probably lost some of his appeal to those who held him up as such. Personally, I think he's better off with that weight off of his shoulders. |
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Post by crimsonwolf on Oct 14, 2011 15:03:08 GMT -5
Sounds about right. I would also add "Motives becoming unclear as the storyline progressed". This is the biggest reason, to me. He had an objective, and fans were behind it like crazy. There was a story being built there, and people were into it. They were behind HIM because he's a phenomenal in-ring talent and on the mic as well. However, they lost the plot as far as fans wanting to see him succeed in his quest for "change" and to "make this fun again". What is his motive now? Much like the Nexus' "bigger picture", the story's fallen apart. And I'll say this - and I don't care who yells "HHHater" over it - but they shoved Punk's whole motivation aside so they could essentially make the story about Triple H. Round of applause for the WWE, everyone. |
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Post by Nikki Heyman on Oct 14, 2011 15:08:08 GMT -5
This thread is about as off as the Warrior. Punk has only gotten more popular over time. As far as this angle goes, E's unclear about EVERYTHING they do. This story's had so many elements thrown in that it's gotten confusing and stupid. Over the past 3 months alone we've had: -Punk leading some kind of crusade against HHH. Punk's original rant was against the entire company, and when things start gettting screwy under HHH he believes (and is mistaken) that it's HHH's fault. This is resolved with their match (which Punk kicks out of THREE PEDIGREES but loses because of the schmozz) and the issue is resolved- HHH and Punk have a grudging respect for each other, and Punk can get back to his crusade for "Change". It wasn't because of the lawsuits that they got re-hired - it was because they were on Johnny Ace's side (as in "Against HHH") so they kissed Ace's ass into coming back and dropping their lawsuit altogether. Kevin Nash was on Johnny Ace's side too but was apparently physically incapable of doing anything that WWE might have planned. Plus, Nash needed to be written off to go work on a movie. You've oversimplified this. With the exception of Chioda and Lawler, those who spoke of the "situations" and "Danger" in the company were HEELS. Beth's statements were hypocritical at best, Christian has been railing against any and all regimes since he turned heel, and Barrett may still be stinging a bit from his failed attempts at the main event. Chioda and the referees (with the exception of robinson and Doan) felt that they were not being protected (but they've been through worse - sadly, continuity doesn't go back that far). Lawler's excuse is the hardest to understand, since he's been a wrestler and a commentator for so long that he's probably seen all this before. Add to it "Ace Attorney" David Otunga convincing people that they're in just as much danger as Miz and Truth (who HHH not only fined, but then fired, then went into a "Street justice" mode and beat the crap out of them after they had surrended to arena officials/police for crashing the ring), you have a roster that worries that Hunter's temper may end up ending their careers a lot faster than when Vince was in charge. At least with Vince they knew (more or less) what they could and could not get away with. HHH, they could go on only what he did when he was a wrestler, so using the "smark definition" (ZOMG he BERRIES EVERY1 lolollool) they decide to "make a statement" and step away. I agree that the walkout is unrealistice only in that they are NOT a union and by rights, Hunter could go find himself 50-60 wrestlers who would have been more than happy to take those spots from those that had walked out of the building. Cena is a non-factor in the HHH/Punk/Etc storyline because we have long since defined that he is a company man. There was no doubt that he would have walked on the company even if he HAD attended the vote. Del Rio is part of the "Conspiracy club" by virtue of being a heel in this case. And in many cases, increased. |
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Post by SenorCrest on Oct 14, 2011 15:20:18 GMT -5
Well of course his heat has decreased by a fan. That's what fans do.
I love punk he is awesome but he has been kind of floating around. I just want to give him more time as a face.
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Post by joshhtx on Oct 14, 2011 15:21:47 GMT -5
2) His character becoming an annoying whiner who panders to the "tumblr meme community" with his antics. 3) He was going against Triple H and he will never be more popular than Triple H no matter how he is booked. I agree with 2) since inside jokes innately leave a big portion of the audience on the "outside," though things like saying 'piiiiiipe bomb' and dropping the mic just completely loses my interest. Imagine if SCSA or HBK said "piiiiiipe bomb" after saying something meaningful. /ugghhhhhh 3) is never going to change. ever. barring tragedy. |
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Post by diegorivera on Oct 14, 2011 17:35:45 GMT -5
Punk's heat hasn't decreased; his uniqueness has tapered off. The average fan no longer sees him as anything unique.
He's gone from the guy who wasn't afraid to speak his mind, wasn't afraid to be fired, wasn't afraid to tear down the big star, wasn't afraid to question the leadership and wasn't afraid to say he was the guy who would take the company to the next level; to the guy who makes way too inside references, sticks the belt in a fridge and calls it edgy, jokes about having sex with another mans wife despite having little to no interaction with said wife, whines about his friends getting fired and seems more out for himself and his own personal glory than the "voiceless," he supposedly speaks for, (btw, has Punk dropped the whole, "voice of the voiceless bit?)
More than anything though, Punks initial statements and actions were incredibly shocking and were so unlike anything anyone was doing at the time. Problem was those things could only really be done once. Punk's contract isn't going to expire every month. He can't keep walking out and threatening to take the WWE title to another company every time. The truth is, the man ran out of "pipebombs," and that's when the uniqueness started to wear. At this point, the average fan only really has some mild residual love from the "Summer of Punk," that's allowed the man to basically end up in the same relative position as Cena or Orton. CM Punk no longer has the ammunition to shock the wrestling world that he had during the summer, and really, that's his fault and not the WWE's. As much as the WWE has produced some horrible storylines in the last couple of months and really hurt the potential of Punk's rise it was hardly squandered like with the walkout. Honestly, Punk teaming with HHH against Awesome Truth is hardly a worse position to be in than Cena and Del Rio's spinning of the wheels where the overexposed poster boy will probably win another unnecessary title against the unready, uninteresting faux aristocrat.
Punk has been much like that first Monday Impact more than a year ago; lots of surprises and shocking moments out the gate, but nothing that sustained his momentum, and considering that all that was supposedly his own idea, it's his own fault he's just back in the same rut now. Not that the E is blameless, but the Punk ball being dropped is hardly their biggest offense or their largest problem...
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Oct 14, 2011 18:23:43 GMT -5
He was too popular to be a heel but too anti-WWE to be a face. They had to change one of the two so now he's not insulting Stephanie McMahon an random fans every week. Now he appeals to more than the internet crowd.
Funny though because that's what Russo liked to go for, but people want to see that out of Punk.
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Post by AztecaDragon on Oct 14, 2011 19:55:57 GMT -5
*eyes the topic creator suspiciously* That...fan...has got some interesting opinions if the summaries are correct, but it's hard for me to discuss anything without some logic straight from the Un-Fan so it's whatever to me. But there are a few things that bother me... Punk's original rant was against the entire company, and when things start gettting screwy under HHH he believes (and is mistaken) that it's HHH's fault. This is resolved with their match (which Punk kicks out of THREE PEDIGREES but loses because of the schmozz) and the issue is resolved- HHH and Punk have a grudging respect for each other, and Punk can get back to his crusade for "Change". My ultimate problem with that part had to do with CM Punk being mistaken. For that entire thing with Hunter to work CM Punk had to be right, especially when you had Triple H constantly trying to poke holes in CM Punk's character every week. Him being wrong flushed a lot of that momentum down the toilet and for what? To get Triple H over as the COO so the hero, Hard-Luck Hunter and The Boy Punkster can unite to take on the conspiracy? I guess, WWE.  And that's not even something I'd mind seeing, but then Punk went from being a focal point in the storyline to...just another guy to sit back while Hunter plays hero...I'm just over seeing Hunter be the hero at this point. I'm at the point where I'm seriously wondering if all this Hunter worship was kicked into high gear so he could save some face strictly because of The Rock coming back and increasing interest. It just goes back to where watching how this entire thing just smacked of wretched writing. Most of the people speaking up during the main event of Raw Is Not Confidence were heels being booked like whining goobers anyway. When you have their arguments not only sound unconvincing on its face (I've got no idea why they made Beth say what she did) but with Hunter pointing their arguments out as such...it just made all the faces who walked out with the heels look like gullible idiots. And what's funny is the WWE had to have known this, since the Cabal and its junior members were conveniently absent. What really slays me is in ANY OTHER INSTANCE, the workers walking out on their boss due to working conditions is a FACE tactic. Considering they're the ones with the most to lose if things go pear-shaped, Hunter isn't in the position to have to worry about ex-employees running around injuring him during his matches, putting him out long enough to be replaced. COO Hunter's employment isn't tied up with how he performs in the ring. But whatever Punk is now one of those toadies who, while he can make every excuse for it in the world, he's ultimately too cowardly to show any type of solidarity with his co-workers and had to cross the picket line to have the privilege to commentate on a wrestling show with no champions. What he did is not generally seen as a "face" thing in anywhere but the small bubble of the WWE Universe where nobody outside of it cares for any extended period... But eh, whatever. If this series of events was to make sure Punk was just a maybe-main event guy who isn't Cena, Orton or Triple H...they did a good job with it. WOW..that post was a lot shorter in my head..  |
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Post by Starshine on Oct 14, 2011 20:35:52 GMT -5
If I could make a comparison to what they've done with him recently, I'd say it was similar to if shortly after giving McMahon the stunner, Stone Cold turned around and apologised to him for being so out of hand. In short, kill the whole character.
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Post by Nikki Heyman on Oct 15, 2011 0:26:00 GMT -5
Punk's original rant was against the entire company, and when things start gettting screwy under HHH he believes (and is mistaken) that it's HHH's fault. This is resolved with their match (which Punk kicks out of THREE PEDIGREES but loses because of the schmozz) and the issue is resolved- HHH and Punk have a grudging respect for each other, and Punk can get back to his crusade for "Change". My ultimate problem with that part had to do with CM Punk being mistaken. For that entire thing with Hunter to work CM Punk had to be right, especially when you had Triple H constantly trying to poke holes in CM Punk's character every week. Why did Punk "Have" to be right? The change in power happened after his original rant so maybe HHH was trying to fix it? And Punk taking all those pot-shots at Hunter and Steph weren't going to help his case in the long run. Hunter and Punk facing off in the ring was a match of mutual respect (Punk already in the midst of a face turn). Seeing how much they had t do to each other (despite the schmozz), it planted the seeds for them to be working together down the line: Hunter respects Punk for manning up and facing him in the ring, Punk respects Hunter for showing that he is NOT the orchestrator of what Punk is bemoaning. They were on the same side. They weren't friends but they were on the same side. Why not? Hunter was a wrestler before he was COO. Hunter has fought the system in storyline before. Punk hasn't faced a machine this big and is only going to get so far. When Hunter saw that Punk's tune didn't change in the sense that he WANTS change in the company, while Johnny Ace seems to be out for himself (and hunter's not stupid), then Hunter is going to put his foot down. Unfortunately, Hunter isn't good at fighting an Office with Office tactics. His expertise is the ring and that's why he lost a round to Johnny Ace. But Punk is still a major player in what is turning into the biggest storyline for the WWE at the moment. It's bigger than the titles - and doesn't require Punk chasing belts or pipebombing every single week. He's still in a great position and I don't see where HHH is overshadowing that. Has Hunter had a lot of tv time lately? Sure. But Punk's not relegated to Superstars or showing up in random backstage segments. He's still out there as part of this storyline and people are choosing not to see it solely because HHH happens to also be a part of said storyline. As COO, ring performance SHOULDN'T be part of it - but as played here, he's still a wrestler at heart and that's part of what got him in trouble in the first place - attacking Miz and Truth after they had surrendered, were handcuffed and being led away by the police. If I saw my boss beating the piss out of two employees I'd be worried too. Where is Punk a "Toady" in all this? I don't see him carrying anyone's bags or serving coffee. In the opening segment of the show he said that he did the walkout thing on HIS terms before everyone else thought it was cool and has stated more than once that he cannot affect change sitting on his couch (or in the case of this week, waving signs in a parking lot). He's sticking with a company that has re-signed him (with some sweet perks, legit) and in the case of Monday night, simply did what his boss requested him to do, which was to commentate for that particular match since in continuity he doesn't mind actually commentating. He probably wanted to ref (checking his trunks for "stripes") but if it was just gonna be him, HHH, Cena and Shaemus he'd get a turn at other duties, just like what would happen in an indy promotion. Punk IS a main-event guy if you're paying attention. and if not from the show, check his merch figures. |
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Post by mattperiolat on Oct 15, 2011 1:37:01 GMT -5
Sounds about right. I would also add "Motives becoming unclear as the storyline progressed". This is the biggest reason, to me. He had an objective, and fans were behind it like crazy. There was a story being built there, and people were into it. They were behind HIM because he's a phenomenal in-ring talent and on the mic as well. However, they lost the plot as far as fans wanting to see him succeed in his quest for "change" and to "make this fun again". What is his motive now? Much like the Nexus' "bigger picture", the story's fallen apart. And I'll say this - and I don't care who yells "HHHater" over it - but they shoved Punk's whole motivation aside so they could essentially make the story about Triple H. Round of applause for the WWE, everyone. Well, did the storyline fall apart because Punk could not make it more interesting beyond his primary motivations or because they were rushing to give Ego Aytch a bj despite him wrestling one match in the last six months. Bitter, me? Now what would make you say that? |
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Post by AztecaDragon on Oct 15, 2011 2:49:22 GMT -5
Why did Punk "Have" to be right? The change in power happened after his original rant so maybe HHH was trying to fix it? And Punk taking all those pot-shots at Hunter and Steph weren't going to help his case in the long run. Which is EXACTLY why Punk had to be right about Triple H's affiliations with Nash and his personal issues clouding his judgement. As the storyline was all you had was Punk constantly taking shots at Hunter and his family while Hunter tried to be professional about it. At the end, it was basically Hunter being right while he poked holes all through CM Punk who acted like a jerk throughout the whole thing and sounded like R-Truth. If this was to get Hunter over, despite the fact he hasn't needed it in YEARS...it was great. If this was to really ride the wave CM Punk started, then it was wretched. To me, Hunter and Punk facing off in the ring was just the logical conclusion considering all Punk saw when he looked at Hunter was another McMahon who had no problem screwing everyone over to get his way. The predictable line, considering this was CM Punk was the catalyst to this storyline was Hunter actually conspiring against Punk. But okay, they took the third option of having them both get played, that's fine. If they were both being played by Laryngitis, who didn't want Hunter in the COO position anyway why not just end the match with Punk and Hunter destroying each other but Laryngitis and friends screwing Triple H out of the job? There you'd have Triple H not only out of the COO position, you'd have him be completely unemployed as in, he's not a wrestler and he'd be barred from entering the building. Here at least the focus would've had to be on CM PUNK to redeem himself with all of his peers since he played his part in costing a man his job. So now he has to find a way to oust Laryngitis and hope he can fix things and help Triple H get his COO job back. Which is why in the next sentence I said I didn't mind Punk and Hunter teaming up to take them down, if this was something that was painted more as something PUNK HAD TO DO HIMSELF with Hunter being the one playing second banana. Again, explain it however you want. I get nothing out of Hunter being THE "sympathetic" Hero considering he can't even be bothered to put over the position as something he even wanted. At least that would make him sympathetic. I didn't say anything about Punk being on Superstars. I said this storyline took Punk from a person a lot of people wanted to see to being a guy that while he'll get some main-events, he's still Hunter's second banana. At this point in Hunter's career there should be no reason why full-time wrestlers should be playing second string to him. But it's not being played like this. It's being played as a whole bunch of heels whining about how out of control things are and what makes it worse is you have the goober faces taking them at face value and walking out on the show, not because their arguments are convincing or they're actually worried BECAUSE Hunter dived into the fray. If it were played in a way that wasn't so damned focused on making Triple H be the One Conquering Hard Luck Hero, you wouldn't have Triple H being booked to poke holes in people's arguments and cut them down every chance he got. You'd have faces presenting legitimate arguments and you'd have Triple H shutting the hell up a lot more often than he was and maybe EVEN ADMITTING he's doing a crappy job and that they actually have a points. He's a "toady" because when the chips were down, for all he did with puffing out his chest and walking out he still sided with THE BOSS over his co-workers which would make him a social pariah when everything is said and done. What makes a walk-out work is solidarity. Everybody's got to be in on it or it won't work, like I said, in nearly any other instance that actually happens in the real world, the people in Punk's position are seen as complete corporate stooges that were bought off no matter what their justifications. If anything Punk was one of the people who had the most to lose considering he just walked out and had all the perks he wanted anyway. But when the chips were down, he chickened out and sided with the boss who would just as soon replace all his friends and co-workers and/or run them down about how much THEY AREN'T EVEN NEEDED. Why would Punk do that? Does he honestly believe he's tight enough with Hunter that Hunter wouldn't have said the same thing about him had HE joined them in the walk-out? No, I don't buy "mutual respect" going that damn far and none of those damn H's stand for "humility." Punk was a toadie because not only did he come back on the show anyway, but nearly squealed in delight at his new commentary position right after Hunter's display of humility. He even went and shook Triple H's hand at the end of the show. The horrible thing is I can't even say that his acceptance of Aitch is an in-character thing about Punk I don't like, it just looks like something that was blatantly written he then had to jump through mental hoops to justify best he could, just so Hunter can continue playing Jerk Sue against any type of logic and people can cheer. What I'm saying is more nuanced than "either he's not main event." You could say the problem is I'm paying TOO MUCH attention, which is a problem I've rectified as far as watching WWE programming is concerned... Punk's merchandise being the top-selling in the company doesn't make this storyline or any of the characters in it make any damn sense, nor does it make me enjoy the show more. |
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Post by Hit Girl on Oct 15, 2011 2:58:44 GMT -5
The storyline is incomprehensible now. It's so convoluted and based around Ace/Roster vs HHH that Punk and even Cena have been marginalised, with Alberto hanging around too, for some reason. The "voice of the voiceless/I want change" CM Punk who was openly and honestly critical of WWE is long gone. I liked that character. I was interested when he appeared. Now, I don't care about him. The "I support HHH's management against the strikers" Punk is of no interest to me.
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