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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Dec 28, 2011 1:06:13 GMT -5
It's kind of sad that a midcard champion actually competing in the midcard is considered a demotion. This is Eve Torres... This is Zack Ryder... This is Eve Torres....er... um.... well.... giving the....rub....to Zack Ryder. Any questions?
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Post by Vice honcho room temperature on Dec 28, 2011 1:15:33 GMT -5
I really don't think it will help or hurt anything
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Post by dashingdro on Dec 28, 2011 1:22:16 GMT -5
The (Un)Great Khali hate on Eve is mind boggling lol.
I've always liked Eve to be honest she is a great person and I really feel that if given the chance she can really become a great diva. You all talk about WWE giving her so many pushes and she "fails" but you all don't talk about how little time she gets to interact with the crowd. To actually talk to the crowd.
I mean really, Kelly didn't get over with the crowd by doing nothing. She had a lot of exposure in ECW with the whole exhibitionist angle along with the bad boyfriend angle to make people feel sorry for her. She even got to main event a match and was fired the next day by Vickie Guerrero (the most hated heel Diva) if I remember correctly. She had all this time to connect with the crowd.
Eve on the other hand no matter how much WWE has tried to push her, they never have done this. They only give her the belt. Make her defend it like 2 times and then make it her drop to someone. How is that even considered a push when no actual effort was even put into this.
Anyways that's just my opinion. I'd love to be proven wrong by WWE if this meant they actually give Eve a proper chance and not some half-assed pushed like all the ones she has been getting.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2011 1:30:29 GMT -5
Poor Zack. Just when I started to like him, this happens.
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Post by #RUDO Coco Del Rio on Dec 28, 2011 7:38:34 GMT -5
The (Un)Great Khali hate on Eve is mind boggling lol. I've always liked Eve to be honest she is a great person and I really feel that if given the chance she can really become a great diva. You all talk about WWE giving her so many pushes and she "fails" but you all don't talk about how little time she gets to interact with the crowd. To actually talk to the crowd. I mean really, Kelly didn't get over with the crowd by doing nothing. She had a lot of exposure in ECW with the whole exhibitionist angle along with the bad boyfriend angle to make people feel sorry for her. She even got to main event a match and was fired the next day by Vickie Guerrero (the most hated heel Diva) if I remember correctly. She had all this time to connect with the crowd. Eve on the other hand no matter how much WWE has tried to push her, they never have done this. They only give her the belt. Make her defend it like 2 times and then make it her drop to someone. How is that even considered a push when no actual effort was even put into this. Anyways that's just my opinion. I'd love to be proven wrong by WWE if this meant they actually give Eve a proper chance and not some half-assed pushed like all the ones she has been getting. This. I'm not the biggest Eve fan myself but I'd rather push her over most of the girls they have right now. She's articulate, level-headed, attractive... She's actually pretty decent in the ring and breaks out new moves here and there. She has her weaknesses like getting tired easily during matches but they're not as bad compared to the others.
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Post by Metalheadbanger Man on Dec 28, 2011 7:42:54 GMT -5
Not really.
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Post by Jedi-El of Tomorrow on Dec 28, 2011 8:59:36 GMT -5
With the teasing on Twitter, I wouldn't be surprised if Ryder and Eve pitched this to creative. Actually I'm guessing they pitched the pairing to creative.
For all the talk about the WWE constantly pushing Eve, the WWE screwed the pooch with Eve's involvement in the Cole vs Lawler storyline. She should have popped up at Mania, and gotten some retribution on Cole. Instead they wait till Over the Limit, long after Eve's involvement in the angle had ended, to have her get revenge. That would have been huge for Eve, but they waited too damn long.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2011 9:10:38 GMT -5
The (Un)Great Khali hate on Eve is mind boggling lol. I don't hate her. I hate the booking that they give her, which as someone already said, has become McCool-esque. And I wasn't exactly the biggest fan of Michelle's booking either. People need to stop acting like I have a vendetta against her. But the way they book Eve is such a sharp example of what's wrong with their company model. How many chances to mold a female megastar have they passed up, only to keep shoehorning her into stuff to try to get her over? Sure, Kelly Kelly wasn't instantly over, but she became over VERY quickly. They threw her in a few prominent segments and the fans ate it right up--they really did like her, although for reasons which I am unaware of. For the record I think that Kelly is a horrid wrestler when compared to Eve, but the almighty ability to get fans to care trumps workrate in a corporate environment (this is why many talented indy stars are rubbish at this level if they can't talk). How many chances to get over has Eve gotten? Very many, and none of them ever show signs of panning out, no matter how hard they try, or who they put her with. Maybe they don't commit to her as fully as they have some other women, but they keep half-assing opportunities they could be giving to other people and give to her. Remember when Nattie got way over against LayCool and then they had her lose the belt to Eve for no particular reason? Things like that get frustrating to me really fast. And I hate, hate hate, when a company ruins a good thing to attempt to get me to like something or someone else that THEY dictate forcefully. It's not about Eve, though her intermittent pushing is very indicative of strategical holes in WWE's booking policies.
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Post by FUNK_US/BRODUS on Dec 28, 2011 9:22:54 GMT -5
Its now obvious that Eve is the Miz of the Diva's division. They will attach her to or put her over ANYONE in an attempt to get her over.
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Post by Perpetual Nirvana on Dec 28, 2011 9:31:04 GMT -5
Its now obvious that Eve is the Miz of the Diva's division. They will attach her to or put her over ANYONE in an attempt to get her over. Except with Miz' last two partners it was the other way round. Riley and R-Truth were paired with him to get THEM over. And really it's no coincidence that Riley stopped getting those big face pops after he stopped feuding with The Miz.
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Arrow
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Post by Arrow on Dec 28, 2011 9:32:41 GMT -5
Riley, yeah, but it definitely could be argued that R-Truth was able to get over without Miz.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2011 9:42:12 GMT -5
Its now obvious that Eve is the Miz of the Diva's division. They will attach her to or put her over ANYONE in an attempt to get her over. I'd say Eve is more like the Kyle Boller of the diva's division, if you're familiar with that NFL Quarterback, and his failed years starting for the Baltimore Ravens. The Ravens thought they had the QB of the future but bought into their own hype about a guy who, when really tested, was no better than any given backup but who got paid quite well during his starting years. Even when he clearly wasn't working like they wanted, they just refused to stop with it until things got so bad they had no choice but to put in someone else, and drafted a young guy who has led the Ravens to repeated winning seasons. Every time she fails to pan out like management wants to, there's always some rationalization, like how they're not committing enough to pushing her, or workrate, how athletic she is, or her look, or something like that, all to support continuing to push her. And on paper, she's fantastic, but just like Boller, she just doesn't deliver the way they hope, and she never will, so why keep using opportunities to build someone else for her? She'd be fine as a mid-tier diva, just based on her abilities alone, but the star spot should be used for someone who shows a much bigger upside or already is worth more.
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Post by Perpetual Nirvana on Dec 28, 2011 9:42:54 GMT -5
Problem with R-Truth was that his gimmick was that entertaining he was starting to get face pops.
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PKO
King Koopa
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Post by PKO on Dec 28, 2011 10:30:05 GMT -5
The problem with Eve's "pushes" is they haven't given fans a reason to care. There is no substance behind her pushes, nothing for fans to get their teeth into. I always compare her push to Kellys (because everyone compares the two women). Fans have always been given a reason to care about Kelly. She has been put in storylines and matches that make you care about her. Eve hasn't.
So she hung around with R-Truth and Cryme Tyme. So what? You don't get over just by hanging around someone popular, you have to DO something. Kelly managed Mike Knox and promised to strip for fans, only for Knox to stop her each time and mistreat her. Thats a reason for fans to get behind her, to cheer for her. Eve danced. That's not a reason for fans to get behind her and cheer her.
Kelly was a damsel in distress jobber. She then moved into a more underdog role (getting a few fluke wins over Womens champ Beth Phoenix) before eventually becoming a "legitimate" wrestler. This took a good few years. Over this time she got storylines: a beauty and the beast love angle with Balls, Miz owning her contract, Kane stalking her and Orton using and dumping her, LayCool bullying her, her standing up to Vickie (the most over heel in the company).
Eve was a backstage announcer, suddenly became a wrestler, and randomly won the title...twice. During this time she didn't really get any storylines, but occasionally was a part-time manager with no effort put behind it.
Kelly has received consistent pushing; not always the main focus, but consistent reasons for fans to care.
Eve has had very, very inconsistent pushing with no reasons behind it. No reasons for fans to care.
Swap the treatment of the two women around and the reactions from the fans would be different. Have Eve go out there and promise to get naked for fans. Have Eve stand up to Vickie Guerrero. Have Eve get mistreated by hated heels. She would be over.
Have Kelly...dance with a midcarder. She wouldn't be over.
If this little storyline gets some effort put into it, it may finally be a reason for fans to care about Eve.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2011 11:00:34 GMT -5
Eve has been given some committed opportunities, though. When she was with Cryme Tyme, they were constantly attempting to show that she was superior in every way imaginable to Layla, i.e. that whole competition thing that they were doing. From 2009 to 2011, she got "bullied" by heels too, and stood up to them. She stood up to Miz on live TV. She's been alongside popular wrestler after popular wrestler.
I disagree about proxy popularity. Bret Hart shows up out of nowhere and says "The Hart Dynasty are good guys now!" and they're all suddenly over until Tyson turns heel. Then after that dissipates. I also disagree about sudden popularity. Again, use Nattie as an example: she wrestles with LayCool for a few months and does very little besides making the same face over and over and wrestling with them; lo and behold, she is popular. Eve gets put against Maryse and the DoD but nobody starts rallying around her.
Eve gets pal'd around with numerous popular stars and confronts the heels du jour for years and...nothing. She's been given plenty and there's never a return on the investment. Why does she need a billion chances to prove herself? Just try someone else in the same role and see if they work. What's the worst that could possibly happen? Them not being over? Well that's already the case so no big deal.
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Post by jadison on Dec 28, 2011 13:29:36 GMT -5
Its now obvious that Eve is the Miz of the Diva's division. They will attach her to or put her over ANYONE in an attempt to get her over. I'd say Eve is more like the Kyle Boller of the diva's division, if you're familiar with that NFL Quarterback, and his failed years starting for the Baltimore Ravens. The Ravens thought they had the QB of the future but bought into their own hype about a guy who, when really tested, was no better than any given backup but who got paid quite well during his starting years. Even when he clearly wasn't working like they wanted, they just refused to stop with it until things got so bad they had no choice but to put in someone else, and drafted a young guy who has led the Ravens to repeated winning seasons. Every time she fails to pan out like management wants to, there's always some rationalization, like how they're not committing enough to pushing her, or workrate, how athletic she is, or her look, or something like that, all to support continuing to push her. And on paper, she's fantastic, but just like Boller, she just doesn't deliver the way they hope, and she never will, so why keep using opportunities to build someone else for her? She'd be fine as a mid-tier diva, just based on her abilities alone, but the star spot should be used for someone who shows a much bigger upside or already is worth more. WOW. As a Cleveland Browns fan, and an Eve fan, I salute that post.
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PKO
King Koopa
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Post by PKO on Dec 28, 2011 13:52:33 GMT -5
From 2009 to 2011, she got "bullied" by heels too, and stood up to them. She stood up to Miz on live TV. She's been alongside popular wrestler after popular wrestler. Again a matter of quality and consistency. I dont know what you're referring to in terms of standing up to bullies, but the feuds she had with Maryse and the Bellas were awful. No storyline, next to no time, no reason for fans to care. She confronted Miz and got a great response. So how did they follow that up? They didn't. They also didn't build up to it; it came out of the blue (a recurring theme with Eve) and was treated like it never happened afterwards. Little quality + no consistency = not good results. I disagree about proxy popularity. Bret Hart shows up out of nowhere and says "The Hart Dynasty are good guys now!" and they're all suddenly over until Tyson turns heel. Then after that dissipates. I also disagree about sudden popularity. Again, use Nattie as an example: she wrestles with LayCool for a few months and does very little besides making the same face over and over and wrestling with them; lo and behold, she is popular. Eve gets put against Maryse and the DoD but nobody starts rallying around her. The Hart Dynasty had Bret Hart in their corner for weeks, and during that time attacked Vince McMahon at Wrestlemania, got to impress people with their wresting skill, had backstage segments and feuded with The Miz (a great person for faces to feud with). They were pushed well and consistently. Compare that to Eve who hung out with R-Truth and Chris Masters (neither of who are Bret Hart) and got to...erm...booty pop a bit? There is a good way and a bad way to pair people up to increase their popularity. Hart Dynasty got the good way. Eve got the bad way...every time. Everyone that feuded with LayCool benefitted from increased fan reaction. Mickie, Kelly, Nattie all got better reactions after working with them. Laycool got screentime and mictime to mock their opponents and their opponents got to embarrass them and get their own back. That's textbook good guy vs bad guy booking and it works. Eve's feud with Maryse? Nothing to invest in, hardly any screentime. The feud with DOD? Even less screentime, not much to invest in (especially for Eve who's a supporting character in the feud). Eve gets pal'd around with numerous popular stars and confronts the heels du jour for years and...nothing. She's been given plenty and there's never a return on the investment. Why does she need a billion chances to prove herself? Just try someone else in the same role and see if they work. What's the worst that could possibly happen? Them not being over? Well that's already the case so no big deal. She needs consistency and quality, something she has never gotten. Hell, consistency would probably be good enough. I'm not even a fan of Eve's, but I think she has so much potential if they just pushed her adequately. They've given her bad push after bad push and I think it's silly to blame her for not getting over when anyone put in the same boat would get the same results.
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Post by kyromax on Dec 28, 2011 14:08:16 GMT -5
I think Eve is hot, and I am a Zack Ryder fan.
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Post by Wolf Hurricane on Dec 28, 2011 16:13:14 GMT -5
Eve has been given some committed opportunities, though. When she was with Cryme Tyme, they were constantly attempting to show that she was superior in every way imaginable to Layla, i.e. that whole competition thing that they were doing. From 2009 to 2011, she got "bullied" by heels too, and stood up to them. She stood up to Miz on live TV. She's been alongside popular wrestler after popular wrestler. She faced Layla in a dance-off. Let's not pretend that's even a parody of adding depth to someone. I can't help but call BS on saying "she dances out to homeboy's theme, but she can't get over 'cause she sucks!" or "she has the title thrown on her out of the blue, but she can't get over 'cause she sucks!" It's just not fair to my intelligence. I honestly can't think of a consistent storyline she's been involved in that's either given her depth or allowed her to connect with the fans. I can think of about three, just off the top of my head, for Barbie; about two or three for Beth; three easy for Layla; and a good one or two for Nattie. With Eve, I can think of a teased angle, a single one, that didn't even take off, and absolutely zero actually fleshed out ones.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2011 16:27:30 GMT -5
From 2009 to 2011, she got "bullied" by heels too, and stood up to them. She stood up to Miz on live TV. She's been alongside popular wrestler after popular wrestler. Again a matter of quality and consistency. I dont know what you're referring to in terms of standing up to bullies, but the feuds she had with Maryse and the Bellas were awful. No storyline, next to no time, no reason for fans to care. She confronted Miz and got a great response. So how did they follow that up? They didn't. They also didn't build up to it; it came out of the blue (a recurring theme with Eve) and was treated like it never happened afterwards. Little quality + no consistency = not good results. The Hart Dynasty had Bret Hart in their corner for weeks, and during that time attacked Vince McMahon at Wrestlemania, got to impress people with their wresting skill, had backstage segments and feuded with The Miz (a great person for faces to feud with). They were pushed well and consistently. Compare that to Eve who hung out with R-Truth and Chris Masters (neither of who are Bret Hart) and got to...erm...booty pop a bit? There is a good way and a bad way to pair people up to increase their popularity. Hart Dynasty got the good way. Eve got the bad way...every time. Everyone that feuded with LayCool benefitted from increased fan reaction. Mickie, Kelly, Nattie all got better reactions after working with them. Laycool got screentime and mictime to mock their opponents and their opponents got to embarrass them and get their own back. That's textbook good guy vs bad guy booking and it works. Eve's feud with Maryse? Nothing to invest in, hardly any screentime. The feud with DOD? Even less screentime, not much to invest in (especially for Eve who's a supporting character in the feud). Eve gets pal'd around with numerous popular stars and confronts the heels du jour for years and...nothing. She's been given plenty and there's never a return on the investment. Why does she need a billion chances to prove herself? Just try someone else in the same role and see if they work. What's the worst that could possibly happen? Them not being over? Well that's already the case so no big deal. She needs consistency and quality, something she has never gotten. Hell, consistency would probably be good enough. I'm not even a fan of Eve's, but I think she has so much potential if they just pushed her adequately. They've given her bad push after bad push and I think it's silly to blame her for not getting over when anyone put in the same boat would get the same results. I don't think we can agree on this one, just because our disagreement is on whether or not she's been given enough to work with. I think that she has, and that it's not fair to other wrestlers who get less and return more, and that someone else should get a chance instead of her getting chance after chance. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it seems like you think they haven't given her enough, or spaced it out too much without commitment. Now I won't say she got as much as Kelly Kelly has, but just because a wrestler gets a bunch of stuff is no guarantee that they can return on the investment. Drew McIntyre, Eric Escobar and Michelle McCool all got a ton of pushing and it never panned out. Eve owning Miz on the mic isn't telling because Miz has been used for Alex Riley to get rather over by doing relatively little. Riley turns on him and suddenly gets insane face pops for a spell, which leads to the question, was it really Riley, or was it Miz? Did Eve get a pop for her own activity, or because it was Miz? How about the Bellas when they were faces? They sure never did anything, but fans liked them. So why is it that Random Bellas can get over with nothing, if this push condition, as you say, is so important? I don't know the answer to either question. I have not seen any signs that fans are interested in Eve--her chances are brief, but whenever she gets them, they're intense, and the fans adamantly refuse to buy into them. And that's why I think someone else should get a shot, and if they get popular, more power to them.
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