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Post by jadison on Dec 28, 2011 16:30:29 GMT -5
I get the feeling that Eve could be a more effective heel. Her face character seems to be a lot like her as it comes off naturally, maybe if she was "acting" more she could break some different ground and get a reaction.
Her cheating on Zack with someone could set up a Mania feud...
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Post by FUNK_US/BRODUS on Dec 28, 2011 16:49:27 GMT -5
Its now obvious that Eve is the Miz of the Diva's division. They will attach her to or put her over ANYONE in an attempt to get her over. I'd say Eve is more like the Kyle Boller of the diva's division, if you're familiar with that NFL Quarterback, and his failed years starting for the Baltimore Ravens. The Ravens thought they had the QB of the future but bought into their own hype about a guy who, when really tested, was no better than any given backup but who got paid quite well during his starting years. Even when he clearly wasn't working like they wanted, they just refused to stop with it until things got so bad they had no choice but to put in someone else, and drafted a young guy who has led the Ravens to repeated winning seasons. Every time she fails to pan out like management wants to, there's always some rationalization, like how they're not committing enough to pushing her, or workrate, how athletic she is, or her look, or something like that, all to support continuing to push her. And on paper, she's fantastic, but just like Boller, she just doesn't deliver the way they hope, and she never will, so why keep using opportunities to build someone else for her? She'd be fine as a mid-tier diva, just based on her abilities alone, but the star spot should be used for someone who shows a much bigger upside or already is worth more. Please don't EVER use Kyle Boller in an analogy again. I spent a LOT of time getting over how bad Kyle Boller was for us. I do not need to hear that name again.
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 28, 2011 16:52:25 GMT -5
No. These "romance" angles seldom work. Ryder doesn't need to be bogged down with Eve. If he did have a female sidekick/manager/valet etc....it needs to be someone who has a character who is compatible with his character.
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Post by FUNK_US/BRODUS on Dec 28, 2011 17:29:35 GMT -5
Its now obvious that Eve is the Miz of the Diva's division. They will attach her to or put her over ANYONE in an attempt to get her over. Except with Miz' last two partners it was the other way round. Riley and R-Truth were paired with him to get THEM over. And really it's no coincidence that Riley stopped getting those big face pops after he stopped feuding with The Miz. It was fine with Riley because that was a great way to bring a rookie through, and it understandably collapsed when Riley was taken away from Miz. And as for Truth/Miz? Truth didnt need Miz at all. Truth talked himself into a PPV main event against Cena for the belt long before Awesome Truth was ever talked about. 2011 has been a much better year for The Truth than it has been for Miz.
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Big L
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Post by Big L on Dec 28, 2011 17:30:34 GMT -5
She's gonna suck out his charisma. Woah
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greeby
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Post by greeby on Dec 28, 2011 17:31:48 GMT -5
I'd almost feel sorry for Eve's inability to get over at this point.....until I remember that she occupies that spot and Naomi hasn't been on TV in a year
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Post by crimsonwolf on Dec 28, 2011 18:33:22 GMT -5
Wow. We consider male/female storylines as punishment now? Really shows the divas' position on the totem pole... >_> If it makes sense and isn't forced, it can be quite good. Edge and Vickie? Two hateable heels, eventually twisted to turn one face. Perfect use of both of them. Santino and Beth? Hilarious and well-done. Perfect odd-couple relationship and the fans ate it up. Zack and Rosa? Funny, plus it's two vacuous neer-do-wells. Perfect match. Morrison and Melina redux? Could've worked if followed through. Dolph and Vickie? Two charismatic heels, rebounding off of one another. Not a bad fit at all. AJ and Daniel Bryan? Could've been something good if actually used. Zack and Eve? Another attempt to randomly shoehorn a woman with a dude to get her some cred. Of those you listed, how often did the romance angle actually get both participants over? Edge benefited from both of his angles with Lita and Vickie, and Dolph is kinda benefiting from Vickie (as much as people don't like to admit it, majority of his heat still belongs to Vickie.) But this thing with Eve just screams throwaway storyline. You go from hanging with Cena, to being one of the "new generation champs" with Daniel Bryan and CM Punk, to trying to get in Eve's pants? One of those things are not like the other.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2011 18:43:17 GMT -5
If it makes sense and isn't forced, it can be quite good. Edge and Vickie? Two hateable heels, eventually twisted to turn one face. Perfect use of both of them. Santino and Beth? Hilarious and well-done. Perfect odd-couple relationship and the fans ate it up. Zack and Rosa? Funny, plus it's two vacuous neer-do-wells. Perfect match. Morrison and Melina redux? Could've worked if followed through. Dolph and Vickie? Two charismatic heels, rebounding off of one another. Not a bad fit at all. AJ and Daniel Bryan? Could've been something good if actually used. Zack and Eve? Another attempt to randomly shoehorn a woman with a dude to get her some cred. Of those you listed, how often did the romance angle actually get both participants over? Edge benefited from both of his angles with Lita and Vickie, and Dolph is kinda benefiting from Vickie (as much as people don't like to admit it, majority of his heat still belongs to Vickie.) But this thing with Eve just screams throwaway storyline. You go from hanging with Cena, to being one of the "new generation champs" with Daniel Bryan and CM Punk, to trying to get in Eve's pants? One of those things are not like the other. Of the ones you didn't list: Santino and Beth was a gigantic success for Santino and a moderate success for Beth during her heel run. It turned her from an overpushed heel who nobody cared about to a fleshed-out character who could do comedy stuff and do serious stuff. I was originally a harsh critic of Beth because of exactly that status she had, but when she worked around it via the pairing, I warmed up to her. Zack and Rosa gave Rosa something to do and helped raise awareness on Zack. Hard to say because it was short-lived. Morrison and Melina in its first iteration was proven because it covered a lot of Morrison's problems with speaking and showed that Melina was competent at acting and speaking to holding her own as a standalone character, and definitely contributed to her later successes in booking. Going back to it wouldn't have hurt. AJ and Daniel Bryan? Again, something that is hard to say either way because it went absolutely nowhere and there's no way to say what good or bad it did or could do. I don't know why they didn't commit to this one--it would add depth to both characters.
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Post by crimsonwolf on Dec 28, 2011 18:52:34 GMT -5
Of those you listed, how often did the romance angle actually get both participants over? Edge benefited from both of his angles with Lita and Vickie, and Dolph is kinda benefiting from Vickie (as much as people don't like to admit it, majority of his heat still belongs to Vickie.) But this thing with Eve just screams throwaway storyline. You go from hanging with Cena, to being one of the "new generation champs" with Daniel Bryan and CM Punk, to trying to get in Eve's pants? One of those things are not like the other. Of the ones you didn't list: Santino and Beth was a gigantic success for Santino and a moderate success for Beth during her heel run. It turned her from an overpushed heel who nobody cared about to a fleshed-out character who could do comedy stuff and do serious stuff. I was originally a harsh critic of Beth because of exactly that status she had, but when she worked around it via the pairing, I warmed up to her. Zack and Rosa gave Rosa something to do and helped raise awareness on Zack. Hard to say because it was short-lived. Morrison and Melina in its first iteration was proven because it covered a lot of Morrison's problems with speaking and showed that Melina was competent at acting and speaking to holding her own as a standalone character, and definitely contributed to her later successes in booking. Going back to it wouldn't have hurt. AJ and Daniel Bryan? Again, something that is hard to say either way because it went absolutely nowhere and there's no way to say what good or bad it did or could do. I don't know why they didn't commit to this one--it would add depth to both characters. I specifically listed the Lita/Edge/Vickie/Dolph pairings because those were the only cases of both parties getting elevated by having such a story. Melina broke out while Morrison was demoted to ECW. Zack got over by doing his youtube shows, not because of Rosa. AJ and Daniel are up in the air (but if it's anything like Daniel Bryan and Gail Kim/Bella twins, I'm not expecting much there either.) And Santino/Beth was admittedly comedy gold so i'll give you that. It's just that, from my perspective, these romance angles are typically only done when it seems like creative has no more ideas what to do with a superstar. For every Edge/Vickie and Santino/Beth, you have more Daniel Bryan/Gail Kim, Drew McIntyre/Kelly Kelly, R-Truth/Eve's.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2011 18:57:36 GMT -5
Of the ones you didn't list: Santino and Beth was a gigantic success for Santino and a moderate success for Beth during her heel run. It turned her from an overpushed heel who nobody cared about to a fleshed-out character who could do comedy stuff and do serious stuff. I was originally a harsh critic of Beth because of exactly that status she had, but when she worked around it via the pairing, I warmed up to her. Zack and Rosa gave Rosa something to do and helped raise awareness on Zack. Hard to say because it was short-lived. Morrison and Melina in its first iteration was proven because it covered a lot of Morrison's problems with speaking and showed that Melina was competent at acting and speaking to holding her own as a standalone character, and definitely contributed to her later successes in booking. Going back to it wouldn't have hurt. AJ and Daniel Bryan? Again, something that is hard to say either way because it went absolutely nowhere and there's no way to say what good or bad it did or could do. I don't know why they didn't commit to this one--it would add depth to both characters. I specifically listed the Lita/Edge/Vickie/Dolph pairings because those were the only cases of both parties getting elevated by having such a story. Melina broke out while Morrison was demoted to ECW. Zack got over by doing his youtube shows, not because of Rosa. AJ and Daniel are up in the air (but if it's anything like Daniel Bryan and Gail Kim/Bella twins, I'm not expecting much there either.) And Santino/Beth was admittedly comedy gold so i'll give you that. It's just that, from my perspective, these romance angles are typically only done when it seems like creative has no more ideas what to do with a superstar. For every Edge/Vickie and Santino/Beth, you have more Daniel Bryan/Gail Kim, Drew McIntyre/Kelly Kelly, R-Truth/Eve's. Zack and Rosa didn't hurt though--it gave Rosa something to do and was very pivotal in helping some fans to notice Zack for his comedic stylings as a foil for someone else. For Melina and John, for the former, it's about how it was a proving ground for her later success, and it's less about what we saw on TV than what we didn't see in the latter's case: without his mouthpiece, he needed a repackaging and a tag partner to not fall through the floor as a talker, going from a charismatic celeb to a guy who isn't supposed to make sense. I guess you're making a good point on AJ/Bryan, though--with Daniel Bryan they seem kind of afraid to commit--but I guess why not give that one a shot? Did either "lady" storyline for Danielson exactly hurt him, either?
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Post by crimsonwolf on Dec 28, 2011 19:42:07 GMT -5
I guess you're making a good point on AJ/Bryan, though--with Daniel Bryan they seem kind of afraid to commit--but I guess why not give that one a shot? Did either "lady" storyline for Danielson exactly hurt him, either? Gail considered it a red flag for her to leave the company. But yeah, I don't see it hurting either.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2011 19:55:45 GMT -5
I guess you're making a good point on AJ/Bryan, though--with Daniel Bryan they seem kind of afraid to commit--but I guess why not give that one a shot? Did either "lady" storyline for Danielson exactly hurt him, either? Gail considered it a red flag for her to leave the company. But yeah, I don't see it hurting either. Well, consider the context. Gail wasn't doing anything. Getting picked up for a random romance angle when you're not doing anything else is usually a sign that you're on your way out.
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Post by AztecaDragon on Dec 28, 2011 20:07:25 GMT -5
AJ and Daniel Bryan? Again, something that is hard to say either way because it went absolutely nowhere and there's no way to say what good or bad it did or could do. I don't know why they didn't commit to this one--it would add depth to both characters. No, it wouldn't. It'd just add depth to Bryan's story when some random heel stuffs her in a refrigerator attacks AJ. If I even went by the suggestions here, that seemed to be the only reason people thought Bryan/AJ would work; it'd provide more emotion for him and that WM match when Mark Henry flattens her.
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Post by crimsonwolf on Dec 28, 2011 22:06:43 GMT -5
^ That's if Bryan actually holds the title that long. If the newz/rumors of Zack Ryder/Eve angle is a demotion is true, then you can expect Bryan to be the next person Creative Targets.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Dec 28, 2011 22:13:51 GMT -5
But this thing with Eve just screams throwaway storyline. You go from hanging with Cena, to being one of the "new generation champs" with Daniel Bryan and CM Punk, to trying to get in Eve's pants? One of those things are not like the other. Zack Ryder had to go down sometime. He's the U.S. Champion. He can't just constantly hang around the main eventers while the rest of the midcard gets ignored. That's what was wrong with Ziggler's title reign, and what's wrong with Cody's IC Title reign. Ryder's reign should change that.
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Post by CH Punk on Dec 28, 2011 22:18:04 GMT -5
^ That's if Bryan actually holds the title that long. If the newz/rumors of Zack Ryder/Eve angle is a demotion is true, then you can expect Bryan to be the next person Creative Targets. I'm still of the opinion that a mid-card angle for a mid-carder isn't a demotion and that Eve turning on Ryder could be a chance to experiment with a heel Eve and, if she still can't get over in any way, shape or form, then they could try a MMA/BJJ gimmick or turn her into cannon fodder for the babyfaces. Also, for the AJ/Bryan, thing it could seriously add interest for the casual fan if it was more about avenging loss but it still supposes that he won't drop the title to Show/Orton/Sheamus/Henry/etc. soon. On a side note, does anyone know when Henry will be cleared to compete again?
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Post by Perpetual Nirvana on Dec 28, 2011 23:37:15 GMT -5
Except with Miz' last two partners it was the other way round. Riley and R-Truth were paired with him to get THEM over. And really it's no coincidence that Riley stopped getting those big face pops after he stopped feuding with The Miz. It was fine with Riley because that was a great way to bring a rookie through, and it understandably collapsed when Riley was taken away from Miz. And as for Truth/Miz? Truth didnt need Miz at all. Truth talked himself into a PPV main event against Cena for the belt long before Awesome Truth was ever talked about. 2011 has been a much better year for The Truth than it has been for Miz. Yeah, a PPV main event that exposed how out of his depth R-Truth was at the top of the card and nowhere near ready for a consistant main event run. It's no coincidence he got paired with Miz after that. And yeah, I know you can make the same "out of his depth, nowhere near ready for the main event" argument about The Miz but fact is WWE trusts him to fill that spot of #2 or #3 heel.
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Post by corndog on Dec 29, 2011 3:54:59 GMT -5
Gail considered it a red flag for her to leave the company. But yeah, I don't see it hurting either. Well, consider the context. Gail wasn't doing anything. Getting picked up for a random romance angle when you're not doing anything else is usually a sign that you're on your way out. Eve really hasn't been doing anything either, in this case you should be pretty happy about this. Back on topic, I really don't see this as a de-push or "punishment" for Ryder. Ryder got himself over and proved he has the work ethic to do it without the company's help. He got the US title because he is over, but because of his ability I think they are constantly going to throw stuff at him to see if he can make it work. As people have said this isn't the first time they have paired Eve up with a very over partner, but it has never translated to her getting over. With as hot as Ryder is, and his uncanny ability to get himself over with so little, they are probably hoping he can find a way to help her get over. If it fails I doubt it even really hurts Ryder and I wouldn't be surprised if this is Eve's last chance.
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Post by Shaun2k5 on Dec 29, 2011 4:02:33 GMT -5
I'm shocked that they've decided to risk de-railing Ryder's push just to get Eve over.
The fans didn't care for her when she was hanging round with Truth so why they'll care now she's moved onto Ryder I have no idea. In fact, this probably would have been an ideal position to put Maryse back on TV. She could have been the anti-Eve, trying to ride Ryders coat-tails and taking advantage of his nieve nature and creating a storyline for the divas that doesn't involve the title.
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Post by joey joe joe junior shabadoo on Dec 29, 2011 4:03:16 GMT -5
Snookie will get jealous, this is building to snookie vs eve at wm!
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