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Post by MichaelMartini on Dec 23, 2011 7:55:25 GMT -5
Shouldn't be wrestling if you're worried about getting potatoed. Maybe I'm just old-school but pro-wrestling is supposed to be about believable illusions. One of those is that you're hurting your opponent with whatever offensive moves you're using. This should included kicks and punches. I seriously doubt that Vader could even throw a worked punch. \ If you were old school, wouldn't you be ok with guys who work stiff? There's any number of moves that could break a neck if delivered wrong. A punch is the least of a wrestlers worries I would imagine.
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Post by bitteroldman on Dec 23, 2011 8:09:00 GMT -5
Maybe I'm just old-school but pro-wrestling is supposed to be about believable illusions. One of those is that you're hurting your opponent with whatever offensive moves you're using. This should included kicks and punches. I seriously doubt that Vader could even throw a worked punch. \ If you were old school, wouldn't you be ok with guys who work stiff? There's any number of moves that could break a neck if delivered wrong. A punch is the least of a wrestlers worries I would imagine. No, I'm not ok with guys working "stiff". I think it's a myth that the wrestling that I watched in my youth (late 1960's thru the 1970's) was about two guys just beating the crap out of each other for real. It was a work, from top to bottom and that includes making it look like you're injuring your opponent.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 23, 2011 8:20:22 GMT -5
A multitide of factors, but I'd lay most of the blame at the feet of Kuwait-Gate, sadly.
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Post by Piccolo on Dec 23, 2011 8:57:12 GMT -5
So Shawn Michaels was a whiny bitch for not appreciating being punched in the face? I'm sure everyone who says so would be thrilled to wrestle every night with a guy twice their weight who refuses to learn how to work safely. I've said this before regarding this argument, and I'll say it again: PRO WRESTLING IS NOT REAL. They worked shows almost every night. You do not have the luxury of legitimately beating the crap out of each other and taking time to recover. The nature of the craft is making it look real, and yet being able to go out the next night and do it all over again, making it look like as fresh and just as good. You cannot do that if your opponent won't work safely, and that puts YOUR job in jeopardy. Shawn was a twit about a lot of things. But when people bring this particular one up, it always sounds like scapegoating. There is nothing at all wrong about insisting that your opponent learn to do his job safely before you step in the ring with him.
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Post by Urfarkendarf on Dec 23, 2011 9:31:40 GMT -5
Eh. It's Vince's fault.
From wanting to change Vader to The Mastodon, to the fact that he was not made in the WWF, all of these things played into it. Undoubtedly things like Kuwait may have been the nail in the coffin, but Vince did not use Vader very well at all. The blame goes to him for the majority of the run.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Dec 23, 2011 9:39:23 GMT -5
Why would you stop washing your singlet? thats just weird. It's a thing from Japan
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Post by Citizen Snips Has Left on Dec 23, 2011 9:49:24 GMT -5
I think I may have actually seen one of Vader's last matches at a house show in October 1998. Even despite being buried all year, he was still in the main event against The Rock.
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Post by mauled on Dec 23, 2011 9:51:23 GMT -5
So Shawn Michaels was a whiny bitch for not appreciating being punched in the face? I'm sure everyone who says so would be thrilled to wrestle every night with a guy twice their weight who refuses to learn how to work safely. I've said this before regarding this argument, and I'll say it again: PRO WRESTLING IS NOT REAL. They worked shows almost every night. You do not have the luxury of legitimately beating the crap out of each other and taking time to recover. The nature of the craft is making it look real, and yet being able to go out the next night and do it all over again, making it look like as fresh and just as good. You cannot do that if your opponent won't work safely, and that puts YOUR job in jeopardy. Shawn was a twit about a lot of things. But when people bring this particular one up, it always sounds like scapegoating. There is nothing at all wrong about insisting that your opponent learn to do his job safely before you step in the ring with him. Im gonna agree on this. I can understand Shawn being a bit leery of working with a guy like this. All Shawn had to do was take one look at Mick Foley during that time and thought you know what I like both my ears. Still dont know why Cornette or one of Vaders mates at the time couldve said to him to tone it down a bit when it came to working stiff.
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Johnny Danger (Godz)
Wade Wilson
loves him some cavity searches
Lord Xeen's going to kill you.
Posts: 27,736
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Post by Johnny Danger (Godz) on Dec 23, 2011 10:06:22 GMT -5
Shouldn't be wrestling if you're worried about getting potatoed. Maybe I'm just old-school but pro-wrestling is supposed to be about believable illusions. One of those is that you're hurting your opponent with whatever offensive moves you're using. This should included kicks and punches. I seriously doubt that Vader could even throw a worked punch. I'm going to disagree with this. A lot of Vader's punches, if you look, his fists don't even touch you....he throws hooks that actually connect his wrist or forearm to the side of your head....now this would certainly hurt, but, a LOT less than actually being punched in the face by him....thus, its worked. I had my nose broke in the ring by a real punch once (in training, no less, I hadn't even worked a match by that point). I'd much rather take a Vader style shot. As for what killed Vader in WWF, I agree Shawn is partially to blame, but I can't believe no one has mentioned the fact that Vince was pretty much dead set to kill any "outside" star besides Flair and Sid. Look at the Alliance and how WCW was treated then, look how long it took him to give ANYTHING to Booker T...I think he wanted to show that WCW's big monster wasn't s***. Which is sad, anyone who knows me knows Vader is in my all time top 5.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2011 10:08:06 GMT -5
I honestly don't think the company really got behind him 100%. The WWF has a history of taking well-known guys and making them into "their brand of wrestler". (Look at Mankind from around the same time.)
The thing with Shawn at SummerSlam and the separated shoulder when Yokozuna planted him with a uranage at Survivor Series didn't help his standing within the WWF.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2011 10:09:01 GMT -5
Yeah I don't buy the Hogan/powerbomb argument. Never have. Hogan kicked out of or no-sold EVERYONE'S finish. That was his gimmick. He popped right back up after a Tombstone at Survivor Series 1991 and Taker is still main eventing 20 years later. If Hulk kicking out of a finish killed a wrestler's career, then that wrestler never had much of a career to begin with.
It goes back to Shawn Michaels, but not necessarily for the reasons mentioned. If a monster loses to a guy who looks like a cruiserweight-sized male stripper, it is not going to make the monster look good. If he can't beat Shawn, how can he beat Taker or Sid?
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Post by Todd's crazy , Man. on Dec 23, 2011 10:24:17 GMT -5
He was simply too good for America in my opinion.
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Red Lion
Dennis Stamp
Put your mask on!
Posts: 4,002
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Post by Red Lion on Dec 23, 2011 10:33:50 GMT -5
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Post by eDemento2099 on Dec 23, 2011 11:27:55 GMT -5
Vader wasn't pushed in the WWF because he had already made a name for himself in WCW and Japan. McMahon must've realized that after Summerslam.
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Post by Citizen Snips Has Left on Dec 23, 2011 11:28:41 GMT -5
He was simply too good for America in my opinion. But his WCW run was awesome and very well-booked.
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amaron
Samurai Cop
I yam what I yam.
Posts: 2,212
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Post by amaron on Dec 23, 2011 12:00:57 GMT -5
Vader wasn't pushed in the WWF because he had already made a name for himself in WCW and Japan. There has been a history of this. Seems like the easiest explanation.
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Post by cabbageboy on Dec 23, 2011 13:29:38 GMT -5
Vader's weaknesses were horribly exposed in the WWF. He was already in his late 30s and had a bunch of injuries, but in WCW Vader had a series of guys like Foley and Sting who were willing to take MASSIVE beatdowns in an effort to get Vader over. That and a bunch of jobbers that no one cared about.
We can fault HBK for a lot of stuff in his 1990s run, but I won't fault him for not wanting to take a legit beating from a 450 lb. Vader. And really, Vader wasn't a good enough worker to adjust to a less violent style. I don't think Bret wanted to take stiff beatings from Vader either.
In Foley's book he talked about wanting to turn face and feud with Vader in 1997, but for whatever reason their teaming never went anywhere, Vader ended up doing the ill fated Kuwait tour, and Vader drifted into nothing. Foley ended up feuding with a young HHH instead and frankly I would say that was a better move anyway.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 23, 2011 14:43:46 GMT -5
WWF wasn't the place to be for dominant heels; the WWF formula has always been the dashing, chiseled, babyface hero overcoming the odds and beating the ugly monstrous heel du jour...but Vader was more than that.
Vader was a heel a company could get behind, as WCW did for awhile, but that was never going to carry over to WWF.
The closest WWF has come to booking a heel the way WCW booked Vader was during the Undertaker's original run, which was pretty brief all things considered, and Yokozuna; and even Yoko was constantly bested by Lex Luger, albeit without losing the title. Vader was a heel who you'd put the belt on, stand back, and let him win for awhile. Then the moment where he gets dethroned would be truly massive.
Again, though, that's never really been the WWF formula.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Dec 23, 2011 14:53:51 GMT -5
So Michaels being potatoed it the reason why he started screaming at him in the middle of a match at Summerslam?
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Post by molson5 on Dec 23, 2011 15:02:54 GMT -5
He was past his prime, and he came in at the start of the era where you matched up a lot with other top stars on TV and PPV, instead of just squashing guys and doing storylines to build up house shows and the rare PPV main event. A guy who needs to dominate everyone to be credible is not as useful in that kind of environment. I hear that complaint a lot - that a guy wasn't booked dominantly enough, but I think that's really hard to do these days for any length of time. You're not going to de-push all of your younger stars for an older fat guy who could leave for Japan at any moment.
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