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Post by mauled on Dec 23, 2011 16:24:07 GMT -5
So Michaels being potatoed it the reason why he started screaming at him in the middle of a match at Summerslam? Nah that incident was because Shawn was going to do his elbow drop and Vader was supposed to move out the way. Vader doesnt so Shawn has to turn around his whole body in mid-air and land on his feet ( which is pretty impressive anyway) and an irate Shawn then starts stomping Vader screaming at him to move. Later on in the year another storyis that backstage he did threaten to have Vader fired for potatoing him which reduced Vader to tears. But like I said I dont blame shawn for wanting to keep his ears though. I dont buy the not into heels argument though. Stone Cold was a heel at the time and he was huge.
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BlackoutCreature
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Post by BlackoutCreature on Dec 23, 2011 16:43:09 GMT -5
I dont buy the not into heels argument though. Stone Cold was a heel at the time and he was huge. Austin got over as a heel more due to his personality and storylines, whereas Vader got over by physically dominating people. Austin could wrestle mid-carders like Savio Vega or Marc Mero or even Bart Gunn in competitive 10-15 minute matches and still look like a credible challenger. He could even lose a few matches every now and then and still stay over. Vader couldn't do that.
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Post by pepsitwist on Dec 23, 2011 19:49:31 GMT -5
The Jim Cornette youshoot video explains it nicely for the most part.
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percymania
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Post by percymania on Dec 23, 2011 23:06:09 GMT -5
It seemed like one of those things where no one wanted Vader coming in and squashing everybody, so the high-profile guys refused to job to him, effectively holding him back.
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Optimax
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Post by Optimax on Dec 24, 2011 5:15:42 GMT -5
Excuse my Australian ignorance but what on earth is potatoing?
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Post by juvijuiceisloose on Dec 24, 2011 5:46:24 GMT -5
Excuse my Australian ignorance but what on earth is potatoing? Potatoing is a wrestling term for hurting someone for real. Vader was known for being extremely stiff in the ring and he injured a lot of guys.
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Optimax
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Post by Optimax on Dec 24, 2011 5:55:31 GMT -5
Excuse my Australian ignorance but what on earth is potatoing? Potatoing is a wrestling term for hurting someone for real. Vader was known for being extremely stiff in the ring and he injured a lot of guys. Oh right thanks mate, I thought it was some type of practical joke. Always called hurting someone legit in ring stiffing
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The Punisher
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Post by The Punisher on Dec 24, 2011 15:18:05 GMT -5
What was all that about when Vader was interviewed by Todd Pettengill after he lost to Kane?
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BlackoutCreature
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Post by BlackoutCreature on Dec 24, 2011 20:05:03 GMT -5
What was all that about when Vader was interviewed by Todd Pettengill after he lost to Kane? Where he calls himself a "fat piece of poop"? I believe that was meant to be some kind of embarressment/punishment from management. They'd been upset with Vader's weight for awhile at that point, constantly trying to get him to get into better shape.
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Sephiroth
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Post by Sephiroth on Dec 24, 2011 20:50:18 GMT -5
I think Vader did not really break through the main event in the WWF/E for numerous reasons. The biggest, most definitely, is that he was notoriously stiff and legit hurt a lot of guys. Since HBK was the top man in the company at the time, and he was notorious for backstage manipulations back then, I do believe he probably had a role in it. I also think part of it is that Vader did not look quite as impressive in the WWF-when he came over they already had Sid Vicious, Yokozuna, and Undertaker, so a guy his size did not seem quite as impressive-sort of like the over-inundation of hosses we face so often today. And frankly, Vader was not in his prime at that time, and I believe Leon White himself has said he felt disappointed with his ring performances back then. I did enjoy his brief feud with Kane-it was just one of those classic monster vs monster feuds, and they even wore the same colors to the ring at the time. Too bad it did not get more drawn out.
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Renslayer
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Post by Renslayer on Dec 24, 2011 23:55:55 GMT -5
So Shawn Michaels was a whiny bitch for not appreciating being punched in the face? I'm sure everyone who says so would be thrilled to wrestle every night with a guy twice their weight who refuses to learn how to work safely. I've said this before regarding this argument, and I'll say it again: PRO WRESTLING IS NOT REAL. They worked shows almost every night. You do not have the luxury of legitimately beating the crap out of each other and taking time to recover. The nature of the craft is making it look real, and yet being able to go out the next night and do it all over again, making it look like as fresh and just as good. You cannot do that if your opponent won't work safely, and that puts YOUR job in jeopardy. Shawn was a twit about a lot of things. But when people bring this particular one up, it always sounds like scapegoating. There is nothing at all wrong about insisting that your opponent learn to do his job safely before you step in the ring with him. One thing I'll blame Michaels for w/r/t Vader is acting like an unprofessional asshole during the Title match at SummerSlam with the "move" nonsense. Oddly enough, that was the 2nd straight SummerSlam he threw a hissy fit in the ring.
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Johnny Danger (Godz)
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Post by Johnny Danger (Godz) on Dec 25, 2011 9:34:19 GMT -5
I'm sure everyone who says so would be thrilled to wrestle every night with a guy twice their weight who refuses to learn how to work safely. I've said this before regarding this argument, and I'll say it again: PRO WRESTLING IS NOT REAL. They worked shows almost every night. You do not have the luxury of legitimately beating the crap out of each other and taking time to recover. The nature of the craft is making it look real, and yet being able to go out the next night and do it all over again, making it look like as fresh and just as good. You cannot do that if your opponent won't work safely, and that puts YOUR job in jeopardy. Shawn was a twit about a lot of things. But when people bring this particular one up, it always sounds like scapegoating. There is nothing at all wrong about insisting that your opponent learn to do his job safely before you step in the ring with him. One thing I'll blame Michaels for w/r/t Vader is acting like an unprofessional asshole during the Title match at SummerSlam with the "move" nonsense. Oddly enough, that was the 2nd straight SummerSlam he threw a hissy fit in the ring. I never understood that. If Vader doesn't move, just...hit the f***ing elbow!
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Dec 25, 2011 10:14:16 GMT -5
In the mid 90s, how many non kliq members went into feuds with members of the kliq and came out looking anywhere near as good as when they went in? If you exclude guys like Taker. Hart and Sid who were already over before the Kliq rose, not many. Guys would start rising up the card, enter into a program with a kliq member, lose then that's it for them, it happened to Vader and many others. People will make excuses, say none of them could draw, or they worked stiff, smelled bad or had an attitude problem, but if the kliq didn't like you that was it for your chances.
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Post by molson5 on Dec 25, 2011 13:11:55 GMT -5
In the mid 90s, how many non kliq members went into feuds with members of the kliq and came out looking anywhere near as good as when they went in? If you exclude guys like Taker. Hart and Sid who were already over before the Kliq rose, not many. Guys would start rising up the card, enter into a program with a kliq member, lose then that's it for them, it happened to Vader and many others. People will make excuses, say none of them could draw, or they worked stiff, smelled bad or had an attitude problem, but if the kliq didn't like you that was it for your chances. How would you have booked things differently? How many other rivals did the kliq need? Everybody always wants the biggest stars to be pushed less, but the kliq actuallly improved business. They weren't a bad thing. This is the era they earned their power, and they didn't earn it by fluke. It wasn't bodydonna skip and mr. hughes that earned that power.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2011 13:20:18 GMT -5
(language)
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Post by héad.casé on Dec 25, 2011 13:22:30 GMT -5
Didn't Bam Bam tell a story that he had heard that the Klique had planned to jump him in the shower or something, and Bam Bam said "OK, which one's first?" and they all backed off. That was what he said anyway. Been a long time since i've seen Bammer's shoot interview.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Dec 25, 2011 13:30:52 GMT -5
How would you have booked things differently? How many other rivals did the kliq need? Everybody always wants the biggest stars to be pushed less, but the kliq actuallly improved business. They weren't a bad thing. This is the era they earned their power, and they didn't earn it by fluke. It wasn't bodydonna skip and mr. hughes that earned that power. They improved business how exactly? By walking off and faking injury rather than lose a title as Shawn did time and time again? By being some of the lowest drawing champions the WWF had seen for decades? At least Bret was popular outside of North America to redeem him. How would I have booked things differently? If a new guy seems to be getting over, I'd give them a chance to show what they can do with a run with a belt rather than using them as a means to get a title from one member of a group to another. Likewise with people who've been over elsewhere like Vader and Douglas... At the very least they can't draw any worse than the Kliq did. Nobody is suggesting Candido or Hughes would ever be world champions, but people like Vader, Bam Bam, Douglas and so on who had potential that was never fulfilled in the WWF.
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Post by molson5 on Dec 25, 2011 14:01:51 GMT -5
How would you have booked things differently? How many other rivals did the kliq need? Everybody always wants the biggest stars to be pushed less, but the kliq actuallly improved business. They weren't a bad thing. This is the era they earned their power, and they didn't earn it by fluke. It wasn't bodydonna skip and mr. hughes that earned that power. They improved business how exactly? By walking off and faking injury rather than lose a title as Shawn did time and time again? By being some of the lowest drawing champions the WWF had seen for decades? At least Bret was popular outside of North America to redeem him. How would I have booked things differently? If a new guy seems to be getting over, I'd give them a chance to show what they can do with a run with a belt rather than using them as a means to get a title from one member of a group to another. Likewise with people who've been over elsewhere like Vader and Douglas... At the very least they can't draw any worse than the Kliq did. Nobody is suggesting Candido or Hughes would ever be world champions, but people like Vader, Bam Bam, Douglas and so on who had potential that was never fulfilled in the WWF. The lowest financial in the company's history was in 1997, when WCW signed most of the kliq away. Vader had a ton of big matches, high profile feuds, ppv spots. A 2 or 3-year sustained monster push would have been bad for business. They did need to build new stars. I don't get building the company around Vader at that point, that would have been a huge mistake. He was a menacing heel who couldn't quite get over the top (like 99% of heels). I would have personally cut him lose a year earlier and skipped the patriotic babyface vader phase, but even then, his role was to put over younger talent (his last TV match was jobbing to edge).
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Johnny Danger (Godz)
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Post by Johnny Danger (Godz) on Dec 25, 2011 16:30:57 GMT -5
In the mid 90s, how many non kliq members went into feuds with members of the kliq and came out looking anywhere near as good as when they went in? If you exclude guys like Taker. Hart and Sid who were already over before the Kliq rose, not many. Guys would start rising up the card, enter into a program with a kliq member, lose then that's it for them, it happened to Vader and many others. People will make excuses, say none of them could draw, or they worked stiff, smelled bad or had an attitude problem, but if the kliq didn't like you that was it for your chances. How would you have booked things differently? How many other rivals did the kliq need? Everybody always wants the biggest stars to be pushed less, but the kliq actuallly improved business. They weren't a bad thing. This is the era they earned their power, and they didn't earn it by fluke. It wasn't bodydonna skip and mr. hughes that earned that power. I'll tell you how I would've booked it....Vader beats Shawn clean in an awesome 30 minute match at SummerSlam, puts him on the shelf for awhile, then Shawn returns to chase the belt, wins the Rumble and BARELY defeats Vader at WrestleMania.
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Post by avenger on Dec 25, 2011 20:38:33 GMT -5
Because he had to deal with a Prima Donna World Champ This, x 1000. I guess it shows that wrestling skills = good person in alot of people's minds. For example, Hogan no selling him in WCW killed him, but alot of people just avoid the fact that Michaels beating him, throwing a hissy fit in the friggen ring, was worse to his overall career. What a lot of people forget is that in Vader's first match (the 96 Royal Rumble), Vader attacks Yoko and then Michaels comes up and eliminates Vader and Yokozuna together, one with each hand. That didn't help him at all.
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