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Post by memphis25 on Nov 28, 2012 17:01:43 GMT -5
If WWE wanted someone else as champ, that person would be champ. Rock isn't forcing anything in that regard. If Punk was really that bad, why would WWE keep the title on Punk going into this instead of putting it on someone else to make more money? Maybe just maybe because PUNK STILL MAKES THEM MONEY which means he's a draw. His DVD is the best non-Mania performing DVD in years, his shirts still sell like crazy and when he is not in the final segment death slot (that again, only Vince McMahon has made work) people tune in, that makes him a draw. They could if WWE wanted to lose money, they all but assured the match up of Rock and Punk hundreds of days in advance. The Rock costs a ton they are going to try to get every cent out of it they can thus 2 of his 3 matches having massive promotional time. The one the gave on short notice did a spike in buyrates but not enough to offset the cost of using Rock thus they broke even on using him at best vs if he didn't work on the card.
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Post by joebob27 on Nov 28, 2012 17:02:23 GMT -5
Or we can go to Survivor Series.
John Cena comes out first: Huge mixed reaction. Punk comes out second: Lesser confused mixed reaction. Ryback comes out third with the big intro: Crickets.
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Post by Error on Nov 28, 2012 17:02:37 GMT -5
memphis25 and joebob27, knock it the hell off now.
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Post by memphis25 on Nov 28, 2012 17:03:40 GMT -5
Can't be worse ca it? Punk is what heading for the bottom 7 watched overruns in Raw history now! of course it could. At the very least it would quiet down people who use whatever ratings data they feel is convenient as evidence that guys they don't like "can't cut the mustard" or whatever, instead of addressing the larger problems involved Well it never has in the history of Raw, I think the 7 lowest rating segments to end Raw speaks for themselves to anyone but a person blindly in love with Punk when would be 90% of this forum.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2012 17:03:47 GMT -5
Uh no, people expect the "top face" to be involved with the last segment. But like I said that's why I don't like to get involved with this s***. Point out logical fallacy, get called "apologist". So... in that vein. Face it, Ryback fanboy, Ryback is nothing more than a jacked up serious version of Santino. LOL. Hold on, I'm rolling my arm in the corner, cue my chant! You're quite delusional, You love Punk but he doesn't draw ratings so now you say people are tuning out his segments off because they expect to see Ryback? Punk owns most all of the worst rated Top-10 final segments in Raw history but yet you think its Ryback? Seriously, the only thing more comical than that is you calling someone else a fanboy when you are riding Punk's jock when its a year trend of his numbers sucking as champ. I KNOW RIGHT! Some people. Just wait. In a few more weeks, now that Ryback's in the main event ratings are gonna go through the roof! ![](http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkmrp62VgA1qdlxec.gif)
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Post by joebob27 on Nov 28, 2012 17:04:58 GMT -5
memphis25 and joebob27, knock it the hell off now. It's over. I put the logical fallacy out there and there's no way to answer it.
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Post by Error on Nov 28, 2012 17:05:06 GMT -5
If WWE wanted someone else as champ, that person would be champ. Rock isn't forcing anything in that regard. If Punk was really that bad, why would WWE keep the title on Punk going into this instead of putting it on someone else to make more money? Maybe just maybe because PUNK STILL MAKES THEM MONEY which means he's a draw. His DVD is the best non-Mania performing DVD in years, his shirts still sell like crazy and when he is not in the final segment death slot (that again, only Vince McMahon has made work) people tune in, that makes him a draw. They could if WWE wanted to lose money, they all but assured the match up of Rock and Punk hundreds of days in advance. The Rock costs a ton they are going to try to get every cent out of it they can thus 2 of his 3 matches having massive promotional time. The one the gave on short notice did a spike in buyrates but not enough to offset the cost of using Rock thus they broke even on using him at best vs if he didn't work on the card. WWE moves the title to Ryback and HIAC and puts it on Punk at TLC or the New Years show. No harm no foul and you get to see what the read deal is. Maybe Ryback takes off and you have a bigger match for Rumble with some that according to you is a bigger draw than Punk which makes you more money. WWE didn't do that because they don't feel Punk is a problem, they've said time and again 3 hours is the problem.
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Post by memphis25 on Nov 28, 2012 17:08:15 GMT -5
Actually he didn't find himself anywhere - they put him there because they literally had no one else to turn to. WWE put some effort into actually building Ryback up, which is more than they can say for their other faces. They painted themselves into a corner with Cena's injury and then grasped at straws to cover their asses for the PPV with Ryback. Honestly - the whole idea that one guy is ratings gold and the other is ratings poison on a show is a fairly ridiculous assumption. A show is not built on one guy or getting a 'rub' from older dudes. This isn't the 90's anymore. A show is built on good storytelling - something WWE lacks (no matter who is in the main event). Dude get real. You say they literally had no one else to turn to, so if they had nobody else to turn to then you are basically saying Ryback is over. The show drew far more buys with Ryback than it would have even with Cena. Like it or not the general public are intrigued by Ryback and he moves numbers.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2012 17:09:39 GMT -5
of course it could. At the very least it would quiet down people who use whatever ratings data they feel is convenient as evidence that guys they don't like "can't cut the mustard" or whatever, instead of addressing the larger problems involved Well it never has in the history of Raw, I think the 7 lowest rating segments to end Raw speaks for themselves to anyone but a person blindly in love with Punk when would be 90% of this forum. 3 hour Raw. Viewer burnout. Third hour always lowest rated. Ratings/buyrates been dropping for years. It's not all on CM Punk. And even if he's not a ratings draw, it doesn't take away from his talent, which is why "90% of us are blindly in love" or whatever bs. I wish WWE could just get a 1.1 rating every week and these threads didn't exist.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2012 17:10:43 GMT -5
Actually he didn't find himself anywhere - they put him there because they literally had no one else to turn to. WWE put some effort into actually building Ryback up, which is more than they can say for their other faces. They painted themselves into a corner with Cena's injury and then grasped at straws to cover their asses for the PPV with Ryback. Honestly - the whole idea that one guy is ratings gold and the other is ratings poison on a show is a fairly ridiculous assumption. A show is not built on one guy or getting a 'rub' from older dudes. This isn't the 90's anymore. A show is built on good storytelling - something WWE lacks (no matter who is in the main event). Dude get real. You say they literally had no one else to turn to, so if they had nobody else to turn to then you are basically saying Ryback is over. The show drew far more buys with Ryback than it would have even with Cena. Like it or not the general public are intrigued by Ryback and he moves numbers. Actually - I'm saying that WWE put no time and energy into building anyone as a face. Ryback was the only entity they had whose credibility they hadn't murdered with yo-yo booking and that's only because he's been around a short while. Like it or not, Ryback's been on TV in the main event scene for weeks and the numbers have barely moved one way or the other with varying margins of error. You say he moves numbers. Well, he sure did move them. DOWN when he attacked Punk in the over run. But that has more to do with the writing than the on-screen talent right now IMHO. But feel free to blame Punk if that makes you feel better.
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Post by memphis25 on Nov 28, 2012 17:10:47 GMT -5
This completely ignores that Punk is finally being treated like the top guy just as 3 hour Raw started, which all have viewers tuning out in droves in the 3rd hour. If Punk was over like you guys want to claim people would stay to watch him.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2012 17:13:07 GMT -5
This completely ignores that Punk is finally being treated like the top guy just as 3 hour Raw started, which all have viewers tuning out in droves in the 3rd hour. If Punk was over like you guys want to claim people would stay to watch him. John Cena's not over? Third hour declines with him in the main event too.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2012 17:14:11 GMT -5
If Punk was over like you guys want to claim people would stay to watch him. John Cena's not over? Third hour declines with him in the main event too. Don't you get it! Only RYBACK is over! Sure he's been involved in every final segment since Cena was injured and nothing's really changed - BUT HE'S MORE OVER!
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Post by joebob27 on Nov 28, 2012 17:14:12 GMT -5
If Ryback was over people would stay to watch him.
Thus the logical fallacy which still hasn't been answered. First show the Rock does the overrun will be through the roof compared to what they are now. Does that mean Punk suddenly is a face draw as a heel?
No.
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Post by Wolf Hurricane on Nov 28, 2012 17:15:16 GMT -5
If WWE wanted someone else as champ, that person would be champ. Rock isn't forcing anything in that regard. If Punk was really that bad, why would WWE keep the title on Punk going into this instead of putting it on someone else to make more money? Maybe just maybe because PUNK STILL MAKES THEM MONEY which means he's a draw. His DVD is the best non-Mania performing DVD in years, his shirts still sell like crazy and when he is not in the final segment death slot (that again, only Vince McMahon has made work) people tune in, that makes him a draw. Actually he didn't find himself anywhere - they put him there because they literally had no one else to turn to. WWE put some effort into actually building Ryback up, which is more than they can say for their other faces. They painted themselves into a corner with Cena's injury and then grasped at straws to cover their asses for the PPV with Ryback. Honestly - the whole idea that one guy is ratings gold and the other is ratings poison on a show is a fairly ridiculous assumption. A show is not built on one guy or getting a 'rub' from older dudes. This isn't the 90's anymore. A show is built on good storytelling - something WWE lacks (no matter who is in the main event). Both of these are excellent points. One, if Punk was the ratings and sales killer so many want to say he is, then what's stopping Vince from stripping him and turfing him back to midcard? Sure as hell isn't Rock: Keep in mind, the whole angle was that "Rock would face the WWE Champion at Rumble," not "Rock would face CM Punk at Rumble." Tensai could be champ, and it wouldn't make a difference, so long as he faced the Rock at Royal Rumble; which, I may add, if Punk is such a ratings and sales killer, he'd be pretty low on the list for the main of Royal Rumble, wouldn't he? Why put a guaranteed sales killer against the Rock when you could put him against Cena and guarantee a high purchase? Second, let's be here; last month or so, RyBack wasn't the best choice, he was the only choice. Think about it: With Cena on injury and the title holder being a heel, who was left? Bryan? He's a tag wrestler now. Kane? Same with Bryan. Kofi? Hasn't had a solid push since 2009. They didn't choose RyBack, they were stuck with RyBack.
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Post by memphis25 on Nov 28, 2012 17:18:32 GMT -5
I'm being sarcastic, genius. You can't even read properly. EVERYONE KNOWS RYBACK IS COMING OUT IN THE LAST SEGMENT. NO ONE CARES. Like I said in the next post, do you think Rock's overruns are going to do the same thing? f*** no. So obviously Ryback isn't a draw. And magically Punk will be a draw. So what does that tell you. That the faces drive WWE shows and always have. If you have a face chasing that no one gives a s*** about and the performances are subpar, no one is going to watch. This isn't 80's WCW. They don't come to watch the heels. That's why heels that get over are instantly turned into faces. So you think Punks segments suck in ratings because of they know Ryback is coming out, but still tune in to see him work with people like Albert and Maddox? And his segments are down because he's a heel and nobody watches heels anymore? I see tons of Punk lovers grasping at straws but your work is top notch. How on earth is Rock going to draw in hour 3 when all I hear you guys say is 3 hours is too long?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2012 17:18:44 GMT -5
If Ryback was over people would stay to watch him. Thus the logical fallacy which still hasn't been answered. First show the Rock does the overrun will be through the roof compared to what they are now. Does that mean Punk suddenly is a face draw as a heel? No. Didn't Cena AND Ryback team up in the main event recently? Must have been the highest rated overrun in the history of the stupid universe! Wait it wasn't? Well I'll be! Probably cuz' CM Punk's awfulness cancelled out their awesomeness.
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Krimzon
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Post by Krimzon on Nov 28, 2012 17:19:59 GMT -5
If WWE wanted someone else as champ, that person would be champ. Rock isn't forcing anything in that regard. If Punk was really that bad, why would WWE keep the title on Punk going into this instead of putting it on someone else to make more money? Maybe just maybe because PUNK STILL MAKES THEM MONEY which means he's a draw. His DVD is the best non-Mania performing DVD in years, his shirts still sell like crazy and when he is not in the final segment death slot (that again, only Vince McMahon has made work) people tune in, that makes him a draw. Actually he didn't find himself anywhere - they put him there because they literally had no one else to turn to. WWE put some effort into actually building Ryback up, which is more than they can say for their other faces. They painted themselves into a corner with Cena's injury and then grasped at straws to cover their asses for the PPV with Ryback. Honestly - the whole idea that one guy is ratings gold and the other is ratings poison on a show is a fairly ridiculous assumption. A show is not built on one guy or getting a 'rub' from older dudes. This isn't the 90's anymore. A show is built on good storytelling - something WWE lacks (no matter who is in the main event). Both of these are excellent points. One, if Punk was the ratings and sales killer so many want to say he is, then what's stopping Vince from stripping him and turfing him back to midcard? Sure as hell isn't Rock: Keep in mind, the whole angle was that "Rock would face the WWE Champion at Rumble," not "Rock would face CM Punk at Rumble." Tensai could be champ, and it wouldn't make a difference, so long as he faced the Rock at Royal Rumble; which, I may add, if Punk is such a ratings and sales killer, he'd be pretty low on the list for the main of Royal Rumble, wouldn't he? Why put a guaranteed sales killer against the Rock when you could put him against Cena and guarantee a high purchase? Second, let's be here; last month or so, RyBack wasn't the best choice, he was the only choice. Think about it: With Cena on injury and the title holder being a heel, who was left? Bryan? He's a tag wrestler now. Kane? Same with Bryan. Kofi? Hasn't had a solid push since 2009. They didn't choose RyBack, they were stuck with RyBack. Some people were thinking they could've put Bryan & Kane in there with Punk as a Triple Threat, which would've made sense and continued the storyline from earlier in the year sans AJ.
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Post by joebob27 on Nov 28, 2012 17:22:09 GMT -5
I'm being sarcastic, genius. You can't even read properly. EVERYONE KNOWS RYBACK IS COMING OUT IN THE LAST SEGMENT. NO ONE CARES. Like I said in the next post, do you think Rock's overruns are going to do the same thing? f*** no. So obviously Ryback isn't a draw. And magically Punk will be a draw. So what does that tell you. That the faces drive WWE shows and always have. If you have a face chasing that no one gives a s*** about and the performances are subpar, no one is going to watch. This isn't 80's WCW. They don't come to watch the heels. That's why heels that get over are instantly turned into faces. So you think Punks segments suck in ratings because of they know Ryback is coming out, but still tune in to see him work with people like Albert and Maddox? And his segments are down because he's a heel and nobody watches heels anymore? I see tons of Punk lovers grasping at straws but your work is top notch. How on earth is Rock going to draw in hour 3 when all I hear you guys say is 3 hours is too long? Again, I'm being sarcastic and you still haven't gotten to the logical fallacy. If Ryback was a draw people would tune into the overrun. They don't, so while he might have an amusing segment every once in awhile that people watch, no one goes out of their way to watch him. He's a curiosity that needs work, not something that should be shoved down people's throats. The Rock is a draw. In a few weeks, people will tune into the overrun. No matter what. People will watch the overrun that might have watched nothing other than the "key" segments. WWE is a face promotion and has always been with one notable exception. The heels exist as vessels to be beaten. Not actual draws. If a heel is a draw, they become a face.
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Post by Wolf Hurricane on Nov 28, 2012 17:24:19 GMT -5
Both of these are excellent points. One, if Punk was the ratings and sales killer so many want to say he is, then what's stopping Vince from stripping him and turfing him back to midcard? Sure as hell isn't Rock: Keep in mind, the whole angle was that "Rock would face the WWE Champion at Rumble," not "Rock would face CM Punk at Rumble." Tensai could be champ, and it wouldn't make a difference, so long as he faced the Rock at Royal Rumble; which, I may add, if Punk is such a ratings and sales killer, he'd be pretty low on the list for the main of Royal Rumble, wouldn't he? Why put a guaranteed sales killer against the Rock when you could put him against Cena and guarantee a high purchase? Second, let's be here; last month or so, RyBack wasn't the best choice, he was the only choice. Think about it: With Cena on injury and the title holder being a heel, who was left? Bryan? He's a tag wrestler now. Kane? Same with Bryan. Kofi? Hasn't had a solid push since 2009. They didn't choose RyBack, they were stuck with RyBack. Some people were thinking they could've put Bryan & Kane in there with Punk as a Triple Threat, which would've made sense and continued the storyline from earlier in the year sans AJ. Actually, that would've been an excellent idea, particularly since it furthers the Kane/Bryan strain, particularly since only one of them (or neither of them) can be WWE Champion. Also, to JoeBob's earlier stated comment about the reactions that the three came out to at Survivor Series, don't you have a problem when your biggest face and your biggest heel both come out to mixed reactions?
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