Mochi Lone Wolf
Fry's dog Seymour
Development through Destruction.
Posts: 24,038
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Dec 8, 2012 21:43:14 GMT -5
LSU and Florida are lesser foes? They both have really good defenses and he broke them on quite a few plays in both games. So? He still lost those games. His numbers in those games amount to jack all because he didn't get the W. Losing hurts the resume of Heisman candidates more times than it helps them, regardless of their stats in said losses. Also, never said LSU and Florida were lesser foes, everyone else they played(outside of Bama, of course), however, were lesser foes. He's only beaten one really good team this year. He couldn't get it done, numbers be damned, against LSU and Florida. The heisman trophy is more about numbers anyway. If it were about wins and losses every single heisman trophy winner would have to be in the national championship to qualify. That's not how it works though. As far as beating Bama being the reason he won the heisman, I think he would have had a much better chance of winning the trophy with a loss to Bama than you're giving him. Just how I see though.
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Post by Red Impact on Dec 8, 2012 21:45:25 GMT -5
If it were more about numbers, Graham Harrell and Colt Brennan would be Heisman winners. There's more to it than that. Manziel had one great game against a good opponent, but since that was Alabama, he got the nod. He's a good player, and it isn't a travesty that he won, but I don't think he was the MVP of the year.
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Post by WorkingInAColeMine on Dec 8, 2012 21:46:25 GMT -5
Playing in the SEC and having the team win most of the games is fine. Isn't like everyone K-State or ND played was great either.
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Dec 8, 2012 21:47:54 GMT -5
If it were more about numbers, Graham Harrell and Colt Brennan would be Heisman winners. There's more to it than that. Manziel had one great game against a good opponent, but since that was Alabama, he got the nod. Bingo. It isn't all about the numbers. If it was all past gaudy stats QBs would be Heisman winners. If he lost to Bama, that would've been 3 failures against "main event" opponents. He would not have won the Heisman had he lost to Bama.
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Post by WorkingInAColeMine on Dec 8, 2012 21:49:16 GMT -5
Well yeah he wouldn't have. Just like Te'o wouldn't have had a chance if they lost any of their close games and Klein basically lost it on the Baylor game.
Remember when Geno Smith was the run away favorite lololololololololol
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Post by Red Impact on Dec 8, 2012 21:50:20 GMT -5
Not saying it's about having the best SOS, just that what you do in big games should matter a lot more than how much you air it out against the cupcake part of the schedule. Since college football teams tend to bank on one or two games a year, those performances should matter a lot more than the FCS and mid-majors.
A&M played 3 good teams, and of those, he had one outstanding performance against Bama, one good but not great against Florida, and one bad performance against LSU. Breaking Cam Newton's record shouldn't come into play that much when the rest of the teams were awful, even if the worst part of the schedule was SEC teams.
With the way their schedule was, I think you could have benched Manziel and they still would have only had 1 more loss.
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ICBM
King Koopa
Didn't know we did status updates here now
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Post by ICBM on Dec 8, 2012 21:50:45 GMT -5
I'm on johnny's side, but Koda is right. If he doesn't beat Bama he doesn't win the Hiesman. That said, he did beat Bama. He did lead his team to a ten win season with his only losses being against top five teams. He did make huge gains, scores and highlights out of broken plays. He sold tickets, jersies, hats and blacked out ppv games for $30 a shot(dude when you POP an out of area buyrate for a Sam Houston state game, you have something exciting). Bottom line is he was the most impactfull player on his team and in all of college football this yr. He earned it. A&M needed a good season to begin in the SEC. He gave them a great one. Validation of $200+ mil invested in athletics and rebranding and Prolly just assured another $50mil+ going forward.
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Post by WorkingInAColeMine on Dec 8, 2012 21:54:53 GMT -5
Not saying it's about having the best SOS, just that what you do in big games should matter a lot more than how much you air it out against the cupcake part of the schedule. Since college football teams tend to bank on one or two games a year, those performances should matter a lot more than the FCS and mid-majors. A&M played 3 good teams, and of those, he had one outstanding performance against Bama, one good but not great against Florida, and one bad performance against LSU. Breaking Cam Newton's record shouldn't come into play that much when the rest of the teams were awful, even if the worst part of the schedule was SEC teams. With the way their schedule was, I think you could have benched Manziel and they still would have only had 1 more loss. You can't tell that though. That could be true about any of them. Notre Dame could have trotted anyone out and beat Boston College. If we are going by player that wouldn't be that good without them you have Jordan Lynch as Heisman and no one close.
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Post by Red Impact on Dec 8, 2012 22:02:16 GMT -5
If NIU was in a major conference, Jordan Lynch may have gotten an invite. BUt as it is, they didn't have any games on the scale that ND, A&M, and K-STate had, so Lynch was never likely to get past the first screening.
The Heisman is largely subjective anyways, so of course there's going to be room for interpretation. I think there is absolutely 0 chance that Notre Dame is where they are without Teo. I think K-State has 3 losses at least without Klein.
A&M beat one great team, and aside from playing strangely down to Louisiana Tech, they played a bunch of teams that they could have beaten regardless. Not as flashy and with QB ratings as ridiculously high, maybe, but I can't really see a team on the schedule I wouldn't have favored A&M to win even without Manziel. His biggest challenges was a paper tiger in Miss. State, and they weren't really any good this year either.
By my measure, he was great this year, but I don't think he was the most impactful or the most impressive when you take everything into account. He just had the most eye-popping stat line.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Dec 8, 2012 22:20:44 GMT -5
Well deserved Heisman for Johnny Football. He was the best player. Period.
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Lupin the Third
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Post by Lupin the Third on Dec 8, 2012 22:26:01 GMT -5
Yeah, I know. I'm a Nebraska fan. But I had to buy it on eBay. Was gonna buy an Optimus Klein shirt earlier in the season. Still might.
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Dec 8, 2012 22:36:31 GMT -5
Well deserved Heisman for Johnny Football. He was the best player. Period. No offense Slim but it really hard to say he was the best period when Manti and Klein make just as good, if not better, cases as Johnny Football. This was the most toss up year in a long time as all three finalists had a good case.
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Post by Curt Hawkins Fan on Dec 8, 2012 22:43:22 GMT -5
Man I was so happy when they announced Johnny Football won. If Suh didn't win it, I have no idea what makes Manti more worthy.
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Mochi Lone Wolf
Fry's dog Seymour
Development through Destruction.
Posts: 24,038
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Dec 8, 2012 22:46:55 GMT -5
Man I was so happy when they announced Johnny Football won. If Suh didn't win it, I have no idea what makes Manti more worthy. If Suh won the Heisman, he would probably have had to pawn it off to pay one of his fines by now.
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Post by WorkingInAColeMine on Dec 8, 2012 22:47:05 GMT -5
Well deserved Heisman for Johnny Football. He was the best player. Period. No offense Slim but it really hard to say he was the best period when Manti and Klein make just as good, if not better, cases as Johnny Football. This was the most toss up year in a long time as all three finalists had a good case. Oh it was definitely real close. I think the difference between at least between Klein and Manziel was Klein had his one bad one the biggest stage right when he could afford it. Te'o is real good and was close, as must as my seething hatred for all things Notre Dame doesn't want to admit it.
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Lupin the Third
Patti Mayonnaise
I'm sorry.....I love you. *boot to the head*--3rd most culpable in the jixing of NXT, D'oh!
Join the Dark Order....
Posts: 36,332
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Post by Lupin the Third on Dec 8, 2012 22:48:25 GMT -5
Well deserved Heisman for Johnny Football. He was the best player. Period. No offense Slim but it really hard to say he was the best period when Manti and Klein make just as good, if not better, cases as Johnny Football. This was the most toss up year in a long time as all three finalists had a good case. I was a big supporter of Collin Klein until he s*** the bed against Baylor. But I still think he's a good quarterback. Yeah, Johnny Football had one more loss than Optimus Klein, but he had better statistics than Optimus. And I really don't see the "Klein's schedule was tougher than Manziel's" argument working here. Yes, A&M played two 1-AA teams, but K-State played one 1-AA team. As for top ten teams, A&M played 2 top ten teams, while K-State played one. I know it's repetitive, but I think that Bama game did help Johnny Football propel himself to a Heisman. Think about it: Freshman QB. Going into Tuscaloosa. Playing against the Evil Empire of College Football. And he punched them square in the mouth. T'eo does have the most argument, since they played two top 10 teams, but they played down to some teams they should've blown out (Pitt, Purdue, BYU, Boston College). And I think that hurt T'eo quite a bit in the voting.
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Post by Red Impact on Dec 8, 2012 22:53:34 GMT -5
No offense Slim but it really hard to say he was the best period when Manti and Klein make just as good, if not better, cases as Johnny Football. This was the most toss up year in a long time as all three finalists had a good case. I was a big supporter of Collin Klein until he s*** the bed against Baylor. But I still think he's a good quarterback. Yeah, Johnny Football had one more loss than Optimus Klein, but he had better statistics than Optimus. And I really don't see the "Klein's schedule was tougher than Manziel's" argument working here. Yes, A&M played two 1-AA teams, but K-State played one 1-AA team. As for top ten teams, A&M played 2 top ten teams, while K-State played one. I know it's repetitive, but I think that Bama game did help Johnny Football propel himself to a Heisman. Think about it: Freshman QB. Going into Tuscaloosa. Playing against the Evil Empire of College Football. And he punched them square in the mouth. T'eo does have the most argument, since they played two top 10 teams, but they played down to some teams they should've blown out (Pitt, Purdue, BYU, Boston College). And I think that hurt T'eo quite a bit in the voting. See, the thing is, you could make those arguments about any of them. Klein s*** the bed against Baylor? Not as bad as Manziel s*** the bed against LSU. ND played down to their opponents? Louisana Tech says hi. It was such a close year that there's really no set single, definite argument you could make for any of them. They all had ups and downs, so it ended up being the hype that got it for Manziel. He won the biggest game of the season for them, and it occurred later than Klein's. I think having two FCS schools in one year is inexcusable, and only one should even be recorded myself. Then again, I don't think 1 is acceptable, but at least it's just 1 and there is tradition in playing against hilariously outmatched opponents in football.
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Post by WorkingInAColeMine on Dec 8, 2012 22:56:14 GMT -5
I was a big supporter of Collin Klein until he s*** the bed against Baylor. But I still think he's a good quarterback. Yeah, Johnny Football had one more loss than Optimus Klein, but he had better statistics than Optimus. And I really don't see the "Klein's schedule was tougher than Manziel's" argument working here. Yes, A&M played two 1-AA teams, but K-State played one 1-AA team. As for top ten teams, A&M played 2 top ten teams, while K-State played one. I know it's repetitive, but I think that Bama game did help Johnny Football propel himself to a Heisman. Think about it: Freshman QB. Going into Tuscaloosa. Playing against the Evil Empire of College Football. And he punched them square in the mouth. T'eo does have the most argument, since they played two top 10 teams, but they played down to some teams they should've blown out (Pitt, Purdue, BYU, Boston College). And I think that hurt T'eo quite a bit in the voting. See, the thing is, you could make those arguments about any of them. Klein s*** the bed against Baylor? Not as bad as Manziel s*** the bed against LSU. ND played down to their opponents? Louisana Tech says hi. It was such a close year that there's really no set single, definite argument you could make for any of them. They all had ups and downs, so it ended up being the hype that got it for Manziel. He won the biggest game of the season for them, and it occurred later than Klein's. Well the difference is Baylor's defense was awful in basically every other game.
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Post by Red Impact on Dec 8, 2012 22:57:36 GMT -5
And LSU struggled against an FCS team.
Man, it's been a weird f***ing year, hasn't it?
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Mochi Lone Wolf
Fry's dog Seymour
Development through Destruction.
Posts: 24,038
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Dec 8, 2012 22:59:08 GMT -5
And LSU struggled against an FCS team. Man, it's been a weird f***ing year, hasn't it? I like it. Weird years make things much more fun. Unless things get weird for Florida State of course. Though if it means FSU is not one of the worst teams as far as turnover ration goes, maybe I wouldn't mind that much.
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