BigWill
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Post by BigWill on Dec 26, 2012 17:01:18 GMT -5
The only reason Dolph still has his MITB briefcase is because of AJ. And now he gets to sleep with her, and he's got his very own bodyguard. Even if he ends up getting pushed through a table at some point, Ziggler still comes out ahead in the end by allying himself with her. Big E. responds to AJ because he's her friend (or at least that's how he's being presented to us). Big E. being Dolph's bodyguard is a thing because he's with AJ so Big E., like the good friend he is, will protect the person who AJ thinks will make her happy. As I said before, Big E. can turn on Dolph if AJ tells him to because he's there for her, not for Dolph. That's all true. It still doesn't change what I said though, about Dolph currently benefiting from being with AJ.
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Post by PTBartman on Dec 26, 2012 17:29:37 GMT -5
It's both their faults. Cena is bit of a dick but AJ is a whole lotta crazy. ] And therefore not guilty by reason of insanity. John Cena is guilty, the defense rests, your honor.
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Toates Madhackrviper
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Post by Toates Madhackrviper on Dec 27, 2012 3:37:06 GMT -5
I love AJ threads. They're like treasure chests full of the posters' unconscious, screwed-up views toward women. Hahaha I agree so much with this. And honestly? I think thats why AJ works so well as a character.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Dec 27, 2012 7:55:07 GMT -5
I love AJ threads. They're like treasure chests full of the posters' unconscious, screwed-up views toward women. Hahaha I agree so much with this. And honestly? I think thats why AJ works so well as a character. I don't know, the whole idea of "She gets a pass because you're all sexist" is kind of sexist in its own way, isn't it?
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kidglov3s
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Post by kidglov3s on Dec 27, 2012 7:58:13 GMT -5
Hahaha I agree so much with this. And honestly? I think thats why AJ works so well as a character. I don't know, the whole idea of "She gets a pass because you're all sexist" is kind of sexist in its own way, isn't it? I don't know, as an argument it's pretty irrefutable. Criticize AJ Lee? Don't enjoy her on your tv? You hate/have issues with women. Seems legit.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2012 9:00:42 GMT -5
Are people actually debating who's right and wrong in this 1980s after school special storyline?
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Dec 27, 2012 10:37:35 GMT -5
1980s after school special storyline? Oh god, if it turns out that she's technically not crazy, she's just downing entire pill bottles of Ritalin Adderall at once... ...that might be the greatest possible way to end this angle.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Dec 27, 2012 10:44:05 GMT -5
1980s after school special storyline? Oh god, if it turns out that she's technically not crazy, she's just downing entire pill bottles of Ritalin Adderall at once... ...that might be the greatest possible way to end this angle. Does she end up jumping through the set yelling "Everyone's a robot!"?
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Dec 27, 2012 12:08:52 GMT -5
I don't know, the whole idea of "She gets a pass because you're all sexist" is kind of sexist in its own way, isn't it? I don't know, as an argument it's pretty irrefutable. Criticize AJ Lee? Don't enjoy her on your tv? You hate/have issues with women. Seems legit. I think it's more that there's super-sexist undertones to the reasons why we're supposed to hate her character (like the "ladies be crazy!" thing), and so actually hating her seems in line with that.
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kidglov3s
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Post by kidglov3s on Dec 27, 2012 12:17:11 GMT -5
I don't know, as an argument it's pretty irrefutable. Criticize AJ Lee? Don't enjoy her on your tv? You hate/have issues with women. Seems legit. I think it's more that there's super-sexist undertones to the reasons why we're supposed to hate her character (like the "ladies be crazy!" thing), and so actually hating her seems in line with that. Oh now I totally agree with that. There's many many many things to criticize in terms of what WWE may or may not be using AJ to represent, especially if you explore elements of objectification.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 27, 2012 12:42:52 GMT -5
Hahaha I agree so much with this. And honestly? I think thats why AJ works so well as a character. I don't know, the whole idea of "She gets a pass because you're all sexist" is kind of sexist in its own way, isn't it? The problem is that whenever issues of sexism (or racism, for that matter) in things like mass media come up is that we tend to oversimplify the issues, and only see them from our own personal, inevitably narrow perspectives. That's not an insult: nobody has a perfect perspective on any major issue, as we're all limited by our own scope and confines of our own existences. To say "she's a woman, so if you critique her it means you're biased against women" is obviously oversimplifying; I'm sure there are those out there who'd make such a silly argument, but I'd very much hesitate seeing those who would as any kind of a majority. The reality is that sexism (or any other socially constructed -ism) is rarely blatant in a given era's context, especially in today's day and age where overtly sexist words are more frowned upon. However, it is still highly present and visible, still destructive, and still pervasive, and wrestling companies are pretty clear hotbeds of such sentiment given how women tend to be depicted, discussed, or presented to primarily male wrestling audiences. Too often we tend to think that if something isn't said explicitly that it isn't there. I'm guessing John Cena never overtly called AJ any sort of misogynistic name or what have you, but observing other words or actions taken by the character doesn't mean a person is contorting his/herself to find sexist undertones (or overtones, for that matter).
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Dec 27, 2012 13:10:17 GMT -5
I don't know, the whole idea of "She gets a pass because you're all sexist" is kind of sexist in its own way, isn't it? The problem is that whenever issues of sexism (or racism, for that matter) in things like mass media come up is that we tend to oversimplify the issues, and only see them from our own personal, inevitably narrow perspectives. That's not an insult: nobody has a perfect perspective on any major issue, as we're all limited by our own scope and confines of our own existences. To say "she's a woman, so if you critique her it means you're biased against women" is obviously oversimplifying; I'm sure there are those out there who'd make such a silly argument, but I'd very much hesitate seeing those who would as any kind of a majority. The reality is that sexism (or any other socially constructed -ism) is rarely blatant in a given era's context, especially in today's day and age where overtly sexist words are more frowned upon. However, it is still highly present and visible, still destructive, and still pervasive, and wrestling companies are pretty clear hotbeds of such sentiment given how women tend to be depicted, discussed, or presented to primarily male wrestling audiences. Too often we tend to think that if something isn't said explicitly that it isn't there. I'm guessing John Cena never overtly called AJ any sort of misogynistic name or what have you, but observing other words or actions taken by the character doesn't mean a person is contorting his/herself to find sexist undertones (or overtones, for that matter). However, just because someone doesn't like AJ's character or the entire show revolving around her to the detriment of everyone else doesn't mean that THEY are a misogynist. And yet that implication tends to get thrown around anyway. This tends to happen all over the internet when you have anybody who belongs to any identity group aside from "hetero white male", to varying degrees, and a lot of times it just seems like it's a scorched-earth option to shut down disagreement. And then people just get stuck in that All-or-Nothing kabuki theater where something like "AJ's character is not innocent" gets distorted into "I hate women and deny that they have any merit whatsoever, please scoff at my unenlightened neanderthal attitudes".
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Post by King Boo on Dec 27, 2012 13:17:47 GMT -5
With regards to the negative generalizations of people's opinions of AJ, another one I hear, as a female, is that I don't care for her character bc I'm OBVIOUSLY jealous.
Because that's not offensive and horribly off the mark, or anything.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 27, 2012 13:26:15 GMT -5
The problem is that whenever issues of sexism (or racism, for that matter) in things like mass media come up is that we tend to oversimplify the issues, and only see them from our own personal, inevitably narrow perspectives. That's not an insult: nobody has a perfect perspective on any major issue, as we're all limited by our own scope and confines of our own existences. To say "she's a woman, so if you critique her it means you're biased against women" is obviously oversimplifying; I'm sure there are those out there who'd make such a silly argument, but I'd very much hesitate seeing those who would as any kind of a majority. The reality is that sexism (or any other socially constructed -ism) is rarely blatant in a given era's context, especially in today's day and age where overtly sexist words are more frowned upon. However, it is still highly present and visible, still destructive, and still pervasive, and wrestling companies are pretty clear hotbeds of such sentiment given how women tend to be depicted, discussed, or presented to primarily male wrestling audiences. Too often we tend to think that if something isn't said explicitly that it isn't there. I'm guessing John Cena never overtly called AJ any sort of misogynistic name or what have you, but observing other words or actions taken by the character doesn't mean a person is contorting his/herself to find sexist undertones (or overtones, for that matter). However, just because someone doesn't like AJ's character or the entire show revolving around her to the detriment of everyone else doesn't mean that THEY are a misogynist. And yet that implication tends to get thrown around anyway. This tends to happen all over the internet when you have anybody who belongs to any identity group aside from "hetero white male", to varying degrees, and a lot of times it just seems like it's a scorched-earth option to shut down disagreement. And then people just get stuck in that All-or-Nothing kabuki theater where something like "AJ's character is not innocent" gets distorted into "I hate women and deny that they have any merit whatsoever, please scoff at my unenlightened neanderthal attitudes". I think you're projecting somewhat here: again, not saying there aren't those online who seek to shut down arguments with silly "definitive" statements, but I feel too often that whenever we see discussions (specifically talking about this board at the moment) concerning sociological issues, people want to go straight to dichotomies, trying to set up two polar options for opinions on a matter. The fact is that these matters are rarely dichotomous; rather, most matters such as gender relations and potential sexism exist on a spectrum, and thus require heightened nuance when being discussed. One person might say "I sense an underlying sexism in </insert example here>", but another person might hear that as "I'm crassly overgeneralizing and infantilizing your opinion as a means of shutting you down". As a mod, if I see somebody doing the latter I feel it is proper to make it clear that is unacceptable. However, again, since these issues are much more nuanced than simple dichotomy tends to allow for, it's very easy for people to confuse opinions that fall in the middle of the spectrum with opinions that only exist at the extreme polarities.
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Toates Madhackrviper
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Post by Toates Madhackrviper on Dec 27, 2012 22:37:45 GMT -5
Hahaha I agree so much with this. And honestly? I think thats why AJ works so well as a character. I don't know, the whole idea of "She gets a pass because you're all sexist" is kind of sexist in its own way, isn't it? Yeah err I didn't say anything like that but way to apply meaning I didn't even remotely intend to my statements. But I do think people on this forum filter their opinions of AJ's actions as a character through the filter of their screwed up attitudes towards women. And I also think thats why AJ's character works so well because it plays so clearly on those same screwed up attitudes (though whether this is accidental or on purpose I'm not sure). And if you're HONESTLY saying with a straight face that nerdy shut in wrestling forum users don't have screwed up attitudes towards women then well idk what forums you've been posting on.
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Toates Madhackrviper
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Post by Toates Madhackrviper on Dec 27, 2012 22:41:32 GMT -5
I don't know, the whole idea of "She gets a pass because you're all sexist" is kind of sexist in its own way, isn't it? The problem is that whenever issues of sexism (or racism, for that matter) in things like mass media come up is that we tend to oversimplify the issues, and only see them from our own personal, inevitably narrow perspectives. That's not an insult: nobody has a perfect perspective on any major issue, as we're all limited by our own scope and confines of our own existences. To say "she's a woman, so if you critique her it means you're biased against women" is obviously oversimplifying; I'm sure there are those out there who'd make such a silly argument, but I'd very much hesitate seeing those who would as any kind of a majority. The reality is that sexism (or any other socially constructed -ism) is rarely blatant in a given era's context, especially in today's day and age where overtly sexist words are more frowned upon. However, it is still highly present and visible, still destructive, and still pervasive, and wrestling companies are pretty clear hotbeds of such sentiment given how women tend to be depicted, discussed, or presented to primarily male wrestling audiences. Too often we tend to think that if something isn't said explicitly that it isn't there. I'm guessing John Cena never overtly called AJ any sort of misogynistic name or what have you, but observing other words or actions taken by the character doesn't mean a person is contorting his/herself to find sexist undertones (or overtones, for that matter). Yeah all of this. Thank you for presenting what I was trying to say more intelligently then I ever could. I'm literally only just entering a point in my life where I give social issues and sexism and such any thought at all so I'm still in the kiddie pool myself. But now that I've started to think about it changes the way I see.. everything.
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Toates Madhackrviper
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Post by Toates Madhackrviper on Dec 27, 2012 22:48:35 GMT -5
With regards to the negative generalizations of people's opinions of AJ, another one I hear, as a female, is that I don't care for her character bc I'm OBVIOUSLY jealous. Because that's not offensive and horribly off the mark, or anything. Well... personally I've found the more I look inward as to my motivations for liking or disliking certain wrestlers (or to use something we have in common Roxie, reality tv contestants ) I've found that I actually do have motivations based more than slightly in jealousy. We all have our deep seeded psychological reasons for liking or disliking the things we like or dislike. Thats how taste even exists. So do I think its possible that some females who dislike AJ might have their base dislike for her sourced from jealousy? Yes I do. And then their base jealousy drives them to build up evidence and reasons and arguments to dislike AJ. But the initial motivation was still jealousy. Then again I'm not sure its really anyone's place to accuse others of hating someone out of jealousy. However it is an easy, petty argument to pull out and I'm not innocent of defending my favorite female wrestlers/reality contestants/whatever else by calling female haters jealous of her. And I think with AJ in particular in addition to playing off MALE wrestling fan's screwed up perspectives of women that AJ's character could very easily grind the gears of what I would consider to be the stereotypical female wrestling fan. You see what I'm saying? Not accusing you of anything Roxie I respect you a lot as a person and I think you're probably mostly above hating someone out of pure jealousy. Just saying that its possible and not a totally bogus argument to make. Yes... insulting I agree but not totally off base?
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Post by King Boo on Dec 27, 2012 23:24:33 GMT -5
With regards to the negative generalizations of people's opinions of AJ, another one I hear, as a female, is that I don't care for her character bc I'm OBVIOUSLY jealous. Because that's not offensive and horribly off the mark, or anything. Well... personally I've found the more I look inward as to my motivations for liking or disliking certain wrestlers (or to use something we have in common Roxie, reality tv contestants ) I've found that I actually do have motivations based more than slightly in jealousy. We all have our deep seeded psychological reasons for liking or disliking the things we like or dislike. Thats how taste even exists. So do I think its possible that some females who dislike AJ might have their base dislike for her sourced from jealousy? Yes I do. And then their base jealousy drives them to build up evidence and reasons and arguments to dislike AJ. But the initial motivation was still jealousy. Then again I'm not sure its really anyone's place to accuse others of hating someone out of jealousy. However it is an easy, petty argument to pull out and I'm not innocent of defending my favorite female wrestlers/reality contestants/whatever else by calling female haters jealous of her. And I think with AJ in particular in addition to playing off MALE wrestling fan's screwed up perspectives of women that AJ's character could very easily grind the gears of what I would consider to be the stereotypical female wrestling fan. You see what I'm saying? Not accusing you of anything Roxie I respect you a lot as a person and I think you're probably mostly above hating someone out of pure jealousy. Just saying that its possible and not a totally bogus argument to make. Yes... insulting I agree but not totally off base? It's all good, Toates. I meant way off base for me in particular, and anyone who knows me well enough knows that's not my style. For me, what I can't stand about the character are the exaggerated little girl qualities coming from a grown woman (the skipping, the cutesy head tilting, etc.), combined with the overt sexualization of her mannerisms and character (particular body language, constant implications/flat out admissions of her physical activities with a variety of men in a relatively short period of time). I'm not one to pull out the "offended woman" card, really at all, but it all rubs me the wrong way. I don't wish to be her because I'm not a tween who's looking to her as an idol, and I don't envy her because I'm self secure and like who I am, both inside and out. Rather, I find her behavior grating, immature, annoying, and unpleasant to watch. She's not someone I can relate to, admire, cheer on, or want to be friends with. She just flat out irks me. The thing is, some people won't even listen to my explanation. I could explain in the most adult manner possible why I don't care for AJ and what I'll get in return is "oh, you're just jealous." Meanwhile, if I were to retort with something cutting about only liking her due to being attracted to her, I'm a bitch who's response just proves that I'm jealous. Just because I have female body parts doesn't mean that whenever I don't care for something another female may do, that it's rooted in jealousy.
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Toates Madhackrviper
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Post by Toates Madhackrviper on Dec 27, 2012 23:44:40 GMT -5
Well... personally I've found the more I look inward as to my motivations for liking or disliking certain wrestlers (or to use something we have in common Roxie, reality tv contestants ) I've found that I actually do have motivations based more than slightly in jealousy. We all have our deep seeded psychological reasons for liking or disliking the things we like or dislike. Thats how taste even exists. So do I think its possible that some females who dislike AJ might have their base dislike for her sourced from jealousy? Yes I do. And then their base jealousy drives them to build up evidence and reasons and arguments to dislike AJ. But the initial motivation was still jealousy. Then again I'm not sure its really anyone's place to accuse others of hating someone out of jealousy. However it is an easy, petty argument to pull out and I'm not innocent of defending my favorite female wrestlers/reality contestants/whatever else by calling female haters jealous of her. And I think with AJ in particular in addition to playing off MALE wrestling fan's screwed up perspectives of women that AJ's character could very easily grind the gears of what I would consider to be the stereotypical female wrestling fan. You see what I'm saying? Not accusing you of anything Roxie I respect you a lot as a person and I think you're probably mostly above hating someone out of pure jealousy. Just saying that its possible and not a totally bogus argument to make. Yes... insulting I agree but not totally off base? It's all good, Toates. I meant way off base for me in particular, and anyone who knows me well enough knows that's not my style. For me, what I can't stand about the character are the exaggerated little girl qualities coming from a grown woman (the skipping, the cutesy head tilting, etc.), combined with the overt sexualization of her mannerisms and character (particular body language, constant implications/flat out admissions of her physical activities with a variety of men in a relatively short period of time). I'm not one to pull out the "offended woman" card, really at all, but it all rubs me the wrong way. I don't wish to be her because I'm not a tween who's looking to her as an idol, and I don't envy her because I'm self secure and like who I am, both inside and out. Rather, I find her behavior grating, immature, annoying, and unpleasant to watch. She's not someone I can relate to, admire, cheer on, or want to be friends with. She just flat out irks me. The thing is, some people won't even listen to my explanation. I could explain in the most adult manner possible why I don't care for AJ and what I'll get in return is "oh, you're just jealous." Meanwhile, if I were to retort with something cutting about only liking her due to being attracted to her, I'm a bitch who's response just proves that I'm jealous. Just because I have female body parts doesn't mean that whenever I don't care for something another female may do, that it's rooted in jealousy. Right on right on. I actually totally understand how you, as a woman and especially as a secure self confident one, would dislike AJ. And I think you explain your reasons very well. And I, unlike those other guys, will admit that my physical attraction to AJ (and the obvious pandering that you mention "working on me") plays a huge part in why I like her. So hey at least there's one.
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Post by King Boo on Dec 28, 2012 0:01:21 GMT -5
It's all good, Toates. I meant way off base for me in particular, and anyone who knows me well enough knows that's not my style. For me, what I can't stand about the character are the exaggerated little girl qualities coming from a grown woman (the skipping, the cutesy head tilting, etc.), combined with the overt sexualization of her mannerisms and character (particular body language, constant implications/flat out admissions of her physical activities with a variety of men in a relatively short period of time). I'm not one to pull out the "offended woman" card, really at all, but it all rubs me the wrong way. I don't wish to be her because I'm not a tween who's looking to her as an idol, and I don't envy her because I'm self secure and like who I am, both inside and out. Rather, I find her behavior grating, immature, annoying, and unpleasant to watch. She's not someone I can relate to, admire, cheer on, or want to be friends with. She just flat out irks me. The thing is, some people won't even listen to my explanation. I could explain in the most adult manner possible why I don't care for AJ and what I'll get in return is "oh, you're just jealous." Meanwhile, if I were to retort with something cutting about only liking her due to being attracted to her, I'm a bitch who's response just proves that I'm jealous. Just because I have female body parts doesn't mean that whenever I don't care for something another female may do, that it's rooted in jealousy. Right on right on. I actually totally understand how you, as a woman and especially as a secure self confident one, would dislike AJ. And I think you explain your reasons very well. And I, unlike those other guys, will admit that my physical attraction to AJ (and the obvious pandering that you mention "working on me") plays a huge part in why I like her. So hey at least there's one. Fist bump, bro.
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