saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Dec 24, 2012 15:38:57 GMT -5
If Bret Hart was the best -- then, now, ever -- why did he feel the compulsion to work the same moveset in the same order in basically every match?
Doesn't that run contrary to the gimmick of being some kind of encyclopediac moveset machine when you fall back on the same sequence all the time?
And why do I never see criticism of him for this?
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Post by Mayonnaise on Dec 24, 2012 15:41:57 GMT -5
That is one of the biggest criticisms I see of him, that and ego.
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Post by sdoyle7798 on Dec 24, 2012 16:23:28 GMT -5
Kayfabe answer, while you may know many more moves, stick with what works.
Real answer, WWF wanting their guys to have "spots" the crowds can mark for.
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Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Dec 24, 2012 22:31:19 GMT -5
Kayfabe answer, while you may know many more moves, stick with what works. Real answer, WWF wanting their guys to have "spots" the crowds can mark for. Because, kayfabe-wise, you aren't trying to "entertain" but rather actually trying to defeat your opponent. The same thing can and has been said about Hogan's move set. I also agree with the real answer. No one complains when Hogan or Macho Man did their signature move sets.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Dec 24, 2012 22:58:20 GMT -5
Bret's answer was, if you are trying to win, why not use your best moves to attempt to finish the person off. Your aces in the hole.
Shawn Michaels also had 5 moves of doom. He changed it up later on, but he also wasn't the top guy either (he actually modified them a bit and inserted an inverted atomic drop. Shawn would hit the flying forearm, stomp to the side of the face, body slam, flying elbow and Sweet Chin Music. Why does Bret always get the 5 moves of doom stuff? Also, Bret and Shawn are two of my all time favourites, so I guess I was fine with them.
With Cena, I guess his critique may come from a younger audience. Funny enough though, my roommate's nephew hates John Cena, and he's only 6. His favourite is Big Show.
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Dec 24, 2012 23:09:08 GMT -5
Kayfabe answer, while you may know many more moves, stick with what works. Real answer, WWF wanting their guys to have "spots" the crowds can mark for. Because, kayfabe-wise, you aren't trying to "entertain" but rather actually trying to defeat your opponent. The same thing can and has been said about Hogan's move set. I also agree with the real answer. No one complains when Hogan or Macho Man did their signature move sets. Their character/gimmick wasn't that they were the best technical workers in the history or future of the game.
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Post by kamero00 on Dec 24, 2012 23:15:50 GMT -5
Does GSP not do the same take down, and Superman punches every fight?
I actually HATE this criticism towards Cena. Yes he uses the same moves every match (so do most wrestlers) but his matches are NEVER boring. They always tell a good story. Granted he is not the most technical wrestler of all time.
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Post by sdoyle7798 on Dec 25, 2012 18:39:22 GMT -5
Because, kayfabe-wise, you aren't trying to "entertain" but rather actually trying to defeat your opponent. The same thing can and has been said about Hogan's move set. I also agree with the real answer. No one complains when Hogan or Macho Man did their signature move sets. Their character/gimmick wasn't that they were the best technical workers in the history or future of the game. No they weren't. But again, Bret could do more moves. But, if what you are doing works, why mess with it? Lots of people have their moves of doom. Shawn and Bret have been discussed, so let's look at some others...(Moves below listed in no particular order) Benoit: Rolling germans, flying headbut, dive to the outside, sharpshooter, crossface Mr. Perfect: Dropkick, snapmare, leg breaker, Perfect Plex CM Punk: Flying clothesline, corner knee/bulldog, standing head kick, flying elbow, GTS Jericho: One arm bulldog, Lionsault, codebreaker, Walls Eddie Guerrero: 3 amigios, brainbuster, leg lariat (I think that's what it is called) frog splash Angle: Rolling Germans, top rope belly to belly, Angle Slam, Ankle lock Everyone has their moves they have to get in. Yes they all know more moves, and they use them. But, they always have their "Moves of Doom." Since they are used every match, people tend to just remember them.
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Post by britishbulldog on Dec 25, 2012 19:10:40 GMT -5
Hogan: Hulk up, 3 punch, clothesline, big boot, leg drop.
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Sam Punk
Hank Scorpio
Own Nothing, Be Happy
Posts: 6,302
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Post by Sam Punk on Dec 25, 2012 19:22:09 GMT -5
Nash: Sidewalk slam, boot choke, hair flip, big boot, hair flip, jacknife.
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Post by sdoyle7798 on Dec 25, 2012 19:26:15 GMT -5
Nash: Sidewalk slam, boot choke, hair flip, big boot, hair flip, jacknife. The funny part is, you pretty much HAVE to include the hair flip. Anyway, I chose the people I did as the examples because they are more "technically sound" than Hulk, Nash, and Cena. It was to show that even the technical guys have there Moves of Doom.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2012 20:07:01 GMT -5
Bret: Russian Leg Sweep...Back Breaker...middle rope axehandle Drop...Leg Stomp...Sharp Shooter...Im assuming
Though I will always be a huge mark for the figure 4 outside around the post
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Dec 25, 2012 20:25:11 GMT -5
Lots of wrestlers use signature moves. That makes sense.
The same exact moves in the same exact sequence and pretty much at the same point in every match, that's another matter -- especially for a guy who is kayfabe (and from all indications pretty much believes) the greatest wrestler of all times.
Common sense dashes Bret's explanation -- if it works, why not use your best stuff? Only it works because that's the way it's scripted. If they booked the match without those moves, some other moves could work. And it doesn't make sense that the same moves in the same sequence would work equally well against every opponent, regardless of that opponent's strengths, weaknesses and style. The approach to beat Austin, one would have to assume, would be different than an approach that might work against Owen (especially Owen, who, presumably, would know what was coming next and have counters in mind).
It's just a blatant weakness and seems like a security blanket for someone who wouldn't need one. He could set up a sharpshooter with any set of moves and the crowd would pop like mad for it.
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Post by sdoyle7798 on Dec 25, 2012 20:49:57 GMT -5
Lots of wrestlers use signature moves. That makes sense. The same exact moves in the same exact sequence and pretty much at the same point in every match, that's another matter -- especially for a guy who is kayfabe (and from all indications pretty much believes) the greatest wrestler of all times. Common sense dashes Bret's explanation -- if it works, why not use your best stuff? Only it works because that's the way it's scripted. If they booked the match without those moves, some other moves could work. And it doesn't make sense that the same moves in the same sequence would work equally well against every opponent, regardless of that opponent's strengths, weaknesses and style. The approach to beat Austin, one would have to assume, would be different than an approach that might work against Owen (especially Owen, who, presumably, would know what was coming next and have counters in mind). It's just a blatant weakness and seems like a security blanket for someone who wouldn't need one. He could set up a sharpshooter with any set of moves and the crowd would pop like mad for it. No offense, but it just looks like you are looking for a reason to complain about Bret, which is fine. It's been explained why the five moves are there.
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Dec 25, 2012 20:54:36 GMT -5
Lots of wrestlers use signature moves. That makes sense. The same exact moves in the same exact sequence and pretty much at the same point in every match, that's another matter -- especially for a guy who is kayfabe (and from all indications pretty much believes) the greatest wrestler of all times. Common sense dashes Bret's explanation -- if it works, why not use your best stuff? Only it works because that's the way it's scripted. If they booked the match without those moves, some other moves could work. And it doesn't make sense that the same moves in the same sequence would work equally well against every opponent, regardless of that opponent's strengths, weaknesses and style. The approach to beat Austin, one would have to assume, would be different than an approach that might work against Owen (especially Owen, who, presumably, would know what was coming next and have counters in mind). It's just a blatant weakness and seems like a security blanket for someone who wouldn't need one. He could set up a sharpshooter with any set of moves and the crowd would pop like mad for it. No offense, but it just looks like you are looking for a reason to complain about Bret, which is fine. It's been explained why the five moves are there. Well, as long as Bret has an explanation -- whether it makes sense or not -- I guess there's no point in discussing it. Of course, more than 50 percent of the threads on thiis forum have explanations of some sort, so I guess we can just do away with all of them. I don't see this as a 'complain about Bret' thread. I haven't attacked him personally, just raised a point I never see raised (if I missed it, sue me) and pointed out how I think it runs contrary to both his gimmick and his proclamation as one of the greatest of all time. Heck, there's a 3-page thread on Steen no longer using his Kill Steen Kill shirt, and the reason is in the title of the thread.
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Post by sdoyle7798 on Dec 25, 2012 20:59:29 GMT -5
No offense, but it just looks like you are looking for a reason to complain about Bret, which is fine. It's been explained why the five moves are there. Well, as long as Bret has an explanation -- whether it makes sense or not -- I guess there's no point in discussing it. Of course, more than 50 percent of the threads on thiis forum have explanations of some sort, so I guess we can just do away with all of them. I don't see this as a 'complain about Bret' thread. I haven't attacked him personally, just raised a point I never see raised (if I missed it, sue me) and pointed out how I think it runs contrary to both his gimmick and his proclamation as one of the greatest of all time. I didn't say we couldn't discuss it. And we have discussed it. I just don't see this discussion advancing at all. "Why does Bret do the 5 moves of doom. He is supposed to be a technician, and FMOD contradicts that." "Well, he does them because they seem to work best to finish a guy off, and people pop for them." "But it's contradictary to his gimmick." "But he isn't even the only guy to ever have done that. Not even the only technician to have a FMOD, here is a list of others." "But it contradicts his gimmick." Where else can this conversation go?
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NOwave
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,735
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Post by NOwave on Dec 25, 2012 21:55:03 GMT -5
Ric Flair criticized Bret for exactly this reason in his book and elsewhere. He felt Bret over-choreographed his matches, and therefore didn't/couldn't change things on the fly to accommodate the crowd's reaction.
While I think there is some truth in this, clearly Bret did those moves better than almost anyone, and so got over with the crowd anyway. He liked to plan the story he was going to tell in advance, and then do it just that way.
In contrast, Flair liked to call matches in the ring, reacting to the crowd. Both ways worked, but they didn't mesh well, which is why those two never worked well together in the ring, despite both being excellent wrestlers. Their audiences were different; the NWA/largely southern audience of Flair loved being played to, and reacted positively. (Note Flair frequently referring to audience members during promos-"Shut up, Fat Boy" or "Honey, you'll just have to wait in line for the Nature Boy"-southern crowds ate that up.
The WWF/more northern crowd of Bret was a little more reserved, and generally liked watching the match but not necessarily participating. (ECW being the exception that proves the rule)
So, yes, Bret had a series of moves that he did routinely. It worked for him. He was criticized for it by guys who didn't work that way. I was personally always more of a fan of Flair's style, but I understand and respect Bret's work.
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Post by britishbulldog on Dec 25, 2012 22:09:49 GMT -5
Ric Flair criticized Bret for exactly this reason in his book and elsewhere. He felt Bret over-choreographed his matches, and therefore didn't/couldn't change things on the fly to accommodate the crowd's reaction. While I think there is some truth in this, clearly Bret did those moves better than almost anyone, and so got over with the crowd anyway. He liked to plan the story he was going to tell in advance, and then do it just that way. In contrast, Flair liked to call matches in the ring, reacting to the crowd. Both ways worked, but they didn't mesh well, which is why those two never worked well together in the ring, despite both being excellent wrestlers. Their audiences were different; the NWA/largely southern audience of Flair loved being played to, and reacted positively. (Note Flair frequently referring to audience members during promos-"Shut up, Fat Boy" or "Honey, you'll just have to wait in line for the Nature Boy"-southern crowds ate that up. The WWF/more northern crowd of Bret was a little more reserved, and generally liked watching the match but not necessarily participating. (ECW being the exception that proves the rule) So, yes, Bret had a series of moves that he did routinely. It worked for him. He was criticized for it by guys who didn't work that way. I was personally always more of a fan of Flair's style, but I understand and respect Bret's work. For me Flair calling Bret out for the same set of moves is funny. I have watched Flair for years and I can call every one of his matches as the match goes. He is as guilty as Bret for doing the same spots in every single match. I will say both Bret and Flair have had matches where the typical format doesn't work and they change things up.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Dec 25, 2012 22:14:14 GMT -5
No one mentions the fact that nothing stops someone from throwing out their favorite moves when they're sure they going to win
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tms
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,901
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Post by tms on Dec 25, 2012 23:21:57 GMT -5
Bret was a much more capable wrestler beyond the 5 moves stuff. His piledriver was a thing of beauty (stinks he wasn't able to bring it out as much; ditto for his DDT), and his figure-four around the post was, kayfabe-wise, as badass a move in wrestling as you'd find from anyone.
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