|
Post by sdoyle7798 on Dec 25, 2012 23:35:09 GMT -5
Bret was a much more capable wrestler beyond the 5 moves stuff. His piledriver was a thing of beauty (stinks he wasn't able to bring it out as much; ditto for his DDT), and his figure-four around the post was, kayfabe-wise, as badass a move in wrestling as you'd find from anyone. You know, if you think about it, with the weight of Bret pulling the guy down, they were probably having their bits smooshed against the post as well as having their legs destroyed...
|
|
|
Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Dec 26, 2012 4:06:46 GMT -5
I believe Bret's finisher in Stampede Wrestling was the piledriver. He certainly started doing that move more frequently in the WWF once Orndorff left the company.
sdoyle: You and I both mark out for Bret's ringpost Figure 4. And yes, you are right, it DOES look incredibly badass!!!
|
|
|
Post by Digital Witness on Dec 26, 2012 4:12:54 GMT -5
Wasn't Bret's piledriver his finisher in between being in the Hart Foundation and before he started using the Sharpshooter?
|
|
hitch
Don Corleone
Hitch knot
Posts: 1,696
|
Post by hitch on Dec 26, 2012 5:07:18 GMT -5
Bret was a much more capable wrestler beyond the 5 moves stuff. His piledriver was a thing of beauty (stinks he wasn't able to bring it out as much; ditto for his DDT), and his figure-four around the post was, kayfabe-wise, as badass a move in wrestling as you'd find from anyone. Why was he not able to use the piledriver during matches? Wasn't it a move used as frequently as a clothes line right up until well after Bret had departed from the company? I can understand being told he cannot use the move as a finisher, but I don't think there's ever been a time in WWF where he was told he couldn't use it. Or if he was, he was the only one under that instruction. You only have to watch old tapes and PPVs to see there'd literally be half a dozen or more in a single show.
|
|
|
Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Dec 26, 2012 12:35:38 GMT -5
His first TV taping in the WWF, he used a piledriver as a finisher. When he got backstage, an agent (either Strongbow or Lanza) chewed him out for using it saying "that's Orndorff's move. Use something else."
|
|
|
Post by Metalheadbanger Man on Dec 26, 2012 12:55:52 GMT -5
CM Punk's gimmick is basically "best in the world" and he has a moves of doom sequence.
HBK is often touted as the greatest in-ring performer ever, and he had one as well.
I mean, by your logic, Kanyon was the best wrestler ever because he was the "Innovator of Offense" and busted out a different move in each match.
|
|
mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
|
Post by mrjl on Dec 26, 2012 13:50:48 GMT -5
Bret was a much more capable wrestler beyond the 5 moves stuff. His piledriver was a thing of beauty (stinks he wasn't able to bring it out as much; ditto for his DDT), and his figure-four around the post was, kayfabe-wise, as badass a move in wrestling as you'd find from anyone. Why was he not able to use the piledriver during matches? Wasn't it a move used as frequently as a clothes line right up until well after Bret had departed from the company? I can understand being told he cannot use the move as a finisher, but I don't think there's ever been a time in WWF where he was told he couldn't use it. Or if he was, he was the only one under that instruction. You only have to watch old tapes and PPVs to see there'd literally be half a dozen or more in a single show. I'm thinking back to late 80's, early 90's WWF and I think the piledriver, was a move that was teased far more often than it was used. Now that might be because I mostly saw jobber matches, but that's the way I remember it.
|
|
|
Post by Trout Stratus on Dec 26, 2012 14:23:22 GMT -5
Just wait till you're all wrestlers and we have topics dedicated to YOUR 4 MOVES OF DOOM!
|
|
|
Post by HMARK Center on Dec 26, 2012 16:36:19 GMT -5
If Bret Hart was the best -- then, now, ever -- why did he feel the compulsion to work the same moveset in the same order in basically every match? Doesn't that run contrary to the gimmick of being some kind of encyclopediac moveset machine when you fall back on the same sequence all the time? And why do I never see criticism of him for this? I have to take issue with something here: I don't believe Bret was ever billed as being an "encyclopedic moveset machine". Rather, Bret was played up as the Excellence of Execution. It wasn't the number of moves or holds he could do, it was that whatever he DID choose to do, he executed and pulled off better than anybody else. Whether that was five signature moves or a wider variety was secondary to how effectively he used them and how real he made them seem. EDIT: Let's also not forget that many of Bret's best matches were when he spent a good amount of time selling his opponent's offense. Hence, having a few key "comeback" spots was a good way of telling the crowd that Bret wasn't going to be beat just yet, he might just pull the win out.
|
|
saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
|
Post by saintpat on Dec 26, 2012 21:39:13 GMT -5
Please enlighten me on Ric Flair's in-sequence moveset that was used in basically every single match. I don't recall him doing that. I can look at five separate Rick Steamboat matches and while, yes, he does have a moveset and thus does use moves from that set in his matches, the matches are completely different. And I don't see him using the same moves in the same order in any of those matches.
What four moves did Shawn Michaels use in the same order in the Ric Flair WM match and the two Undertaker matches? What is CM Punk's moves of doom set that he used against Ryback in HiaC, against Cena and against Bryan?
I think there is a big difference between a guy using the same moves in every match -- um, pretty much everyone does as there are only so many moves and of those moves they have only mastered or are only comfortable with a certain amount of them -- and using the same moves in the same order in pretty much every single match. That is pretty much what Bret did, with far fewer exceptions than matches (including matches in consecutive weeks on TV, one after another after another, etc.) where he didn't.
I mean, Randy Orton (not a big fan, but he's as good example as any) is likely to break out the second-rope DDT, the scoop slam and the backbreaker in most of his matches. Following Bret's logic of 'use your best moves,' this makes sense. But I don't see Orton using them one after another after another in the same order in every match.
In fact, I can't think of any wrestler BEFORE Bret Hart to have a "moves of doom set" used in this way. Hey, maybe this is his lasting contribution to the evolution of professional wrestling, and something to be proud of.
I see the fact that Cena has his moves of doom as an argument that he can't wrestle (or isn't a good wrestler), and on this thread some seem to think it's part of what made Hart great. Interesting to say the least.
|
|
tms
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,901
|
Post by tms on Dec 26, 2012 22:26:54 GMT -5
Using this logic, Dean Malenko is the most overrated wrestler ever. 1,000 holds?
|
|
|
Post by bitteroldman on Dec 27, 2012 3:51:49 GMT -5
Using this logic, Dean Malenko is the most overrated wrestler ever. 1,000 holds? Armbar! Sorry, reflex reaction
|
|
|
Post by Lance Uppercut on Dec 27, 2012 4:13:05 GMT -5
Ric Flair criticized Bret for exactly this reason in his book and elsewhere. He felt Bret over-choreographed his matches, and therefore didn't/couldn't change things on the fly to accommodate the crowd's reaction. While I think there is some truth in this, clearly Bret did those moves better than almost anyone, and so got over with the crowd anyway. He liked to plan the story he was going to tell in advance, and then do it just that way. In contrast, Flair liked to call matches in the ring, reacting to the crowd. Both ways worked, but they didn't mesh well, which is why those two never worked well together in the ring, despite both being excellent wrestlers. Their audiences were different; the NWA/largely southern audience of Flair loved being played to, and reacted positively. (Note Flair frequently referring to audience members during promos-"Shut up, Fat Boy" or "Honey, you'll just have to wait in line for the Nature Boy"-southern crowds ate that up. The WWF/more northern crowd of Bret was a little more reserved, and generally liked watching the match but not necessarily participating. (ECW being the exception that proves the rule) So, yes, Bret had a series of moves that he did routinely. It worked for him. He was criticized for it by guys who didn't work that way. I was personally always more of a fan of Flair's style, but I understand and respect Bret's work. For me Flair calling Bret out for the same set of moves is funny. I have watched Flair for years and I can call every one of his matches as the match goes. He is as guilty as Bret for doing the same spots in every single match. I will say both Bret and Flair have had matches where the typical format doesn't work and they change things up. I thought the dislike was the other way around. I remember reading Bret's book and remember many of his ridiculous online arguments where he felt Flair was too cartoony and bent on inserting as many of his signature spots as possible in a match "taking the realism out" of the match. And Flair criticizing Bret for mixing it up too often and "not giving the audience what they wanted to see". Namely, the signature moves. Please enlighten me on Ric Flair's in-sequence moveset that was used in basically every single match. I don't recall him doing that. I can look at five separate Rick Steamboat matches and while, yes, he does have a moveset and thus does use moves from that set in his matches, the matches are completely different. And I don't see him using the same moves in the same order in any of those matches. What four moves did Shawn Michaels use in the same order in the Ric Flair WM match and the two Undertaker matches? What is CM Punk's moves of doom set that he used against Ryback in HiaC, against Cena and against Bryan? I think there is a big difference between a guy using the same moves in every match -- um, pretty much everyone does as there are only so many moves and of those moves they have only mastered or are only comfortable with a certain amount of them -- and using the same moves in the same order in pretty much every single match. That is pretty much what Bret did, with far fewer exceptions than matches (including matches in consecutive weeks on TV, one after another after another, etc.) where he didn't. I mean, Randy Orton (not a big fan, but he's as good example as any) is likely to break out the second-rope DDT, the scoop slam and the backbreaker in most of his matches. Following Bret's logic of 'use your best moves,' this makes sense. But I don't see Orton using them one after another after another in the same order in every match. In fact, I can't think of any wrestler BEFORE Bret Hart to have a "moves of doom set" used in this way. Hey, maybe this is his lasting contribution to the evolution of professional wrestling, and something to be proud of. I see the fact that Cena has his moves of doom as an argument that he can't wrestle (or isn't a good wrestler), and on this thread some seem to think it's part of what made Hart great. Interesting to say the least. I think the criticism was more for the spots he always uses. Irish whip into the corner, flip over the corner, walk around, fall over. Climb the top rope, get thrown off the top rope. Flair does some desperation punches, stops, falls flat on his face. Random nut shot.
|
|
|
Post by Throwback on Dec 27, 2012 15:04:00 GMT -5
As Bret said in an interview once "Why wouldn't I use the moves that I know will work?"
|
|
|
Post by HMARK Center on Dec 27, 2012 15:32:56 GMT -5
And there's something to be said for that mindset. I recall it feeling like a big deal when Bret made a title defense against Razor Ramon at Royal Rumble '93 and he busted out a suicide dive. Made it feel like Razor was forcing Bret to work outside of his comfort zone, made Bret seem like he was vulnerable and had to change his game to beat this challenge.
|
|
dbostick
Trap-Jaw
Damn these contacts!
Posts: 333
|
Post by dbostick on Dec 29, 2012 8:49:39 GMT -5
I must get this in... Nailz: choke, choke, one time electric chair, choke, sleeper. Oh, and Bret shouldn't get flack for any of his work. He made Jean Pierre Lafitte look like a World Title contender for crying out loud!
|
|
mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
|
Post by mrjl on Dec 29, 2012 9:31:10 GMT -5
Please enlighten me on Ric Flair's in-sequence moveset that was used in basically every single match. I don't recall him doing that. I can look at five separate Rick Steamboat matches and while, yes, he does have a moveset and thus does use moves from that set in his matches, the matches are completely different. And I don't see him using the same moves in the same order in any of those matches. What four moves did Shawn Michaels use in the same order in the Ric Flair WM match and the two Undertaker matches? What is CM Punk's moves of doom set that he used against Ryback in HiaC, against Cena and against Bryan? I think there is a big difference between a guy using the same moves in every match -- um, pretty much everyone does as there are only so many moves and of those moves they have only mastered or are only comfortable with a certain amount of them -- and using the same moves in the same order in pretty much every single match. That is pretty much what Bret did, with far fewer exceptions than matches (including matches in consecutive weeks on TV, one after another after another, etc.) where he didn't. I mean, Randy Orton (not a big fan, but he's as good example as any) is likely to break out the second-rope DDT, the scoop slam and the backbreaker in most of his matches. Following Bret's logic of 'use your best moves,' this makes sense. But I don't see Orton using them one after another after another in the same order in every match. In fact, I can't think of any wrestler BEFORE Bret Hart to have a "moves of doom set" used in this way. Hey, maybe this is his lasting contribution to the evolution of professional wrestling, and something to be proud of. I see the fact that Cena has his moves of doom as an argument that he can't wrestle (or isn't a good wrestler), and on this thread some seem to think it's part of what made Hart great. Interesting to say the least. to be perfectly honest I didn't really remember Bret's moves of doom being five moves long originally. I remembered the backbreaker, second rope elbow sharpshooter, yeah. But I don't remember the Russian leg sweep in the bunch earlier. And his five moves supposedly started with an inverted atomic drop, but when I think of Bret doing that move I remember him following up by backing into the ropes and hitting a running clothesline
|
|
|
Post by azrael502 on Dec 29, 2012 18:29:12 GMT -5
That is one of the biggest criticisms I see of him, that and ego. lol sums up bret very well
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2012 19:17:50 GMT -5
What's great about Bret is managed to set up his finisher before he did any of his 5 moves. He'd spend the match working on the midsection and/or the legs, in between selling for his opponent and whatever other transitions are going on in th ematch. Then once his opponent was worn down and he was closing in on it, he had his go-to moves to put the guy away, and he would do them in different order, and they didn't involve the other guy looking like a dope running at him and swinging wildly the same way every match.
|
|
|
Post by Citizen Snips Has Left on Dec 29, 2012 19:36:11 GMT -5
Using this logic, Dean Malenko is the most overrated wrestler ever. 1,000 holds? By that same logic, Chris Jericho would be the worst, topping Malenko's count by 4.
|
|