WCW's booking of great talents: not quite so bad?

[HMARK Center]

I've seen people begin to address this at times, but I'd be interested in hearing more of a focused discussion on it.

A chief critique of WCW is that, too often, it'd fall back on older talent in the main event scene, which often was done at the expense of fresher (if not necessarily younger), more dynamic talent. One need only look at the later run of the nWo with main events like the infamous "Age in the Cage" happening while you had great wrestlers lower on the PPV's card who many felt were just spinning their wheels.

However, while I'm by no means an absolute expert on WCW in the early 90's (I watch as much of the good stuff as I can, but I wasn't a weekly viewer then), it strikes me that a lot of great talent that people like to say WCW "botched" or "underused" actually seemed to get pretty nice pushes there. The history tends to go that a lot of these guys jumped ship to WWF and only then realized their full potential, but I'm not sure how honest that really is.

The chief list of names I usually think of when this topic comes up tends to include: Austin, Trips, Foley, Benoit, Guerrero, Jericho, Pillman, Regal, Raven, Saturn, and a few other names who spanned the mid-to-late 90's in WCW.

I'll be fair: too often, a lot of those guys did seem to hit glass ceilings. In some instances people could make the case it was warranted (I love Foley, but before the Attitude Era it was very difficult to imagine a guy like him being a World Champion), and in some cases it could be argued that a few of them were still young during their time there (e.g. Jericho), maybe not quite ready to main event yet. But in others it was just abject silliness: for example, there was little reason why Austin shouldn't have gotten a main event push before he left for WWF.

Still, was there any shame in the way some of these guys were used? Sure, Cactus Jack had the "Lost in Cleveland" storyline, but he was also pushed into main event caliber feuds with Sting and Vader. Steve Austin was highlighted in many of the stables he was a part of, and had a fantastic US Title run, as well as Tag Team gold. Brian Pillman and Chris Benoit were in the Four Horsemen (and Benoit obviously would hold the World Title at one point). Steven Regal was a fantastic TV Champion. Other guys got highly featured feuds or title reigns (Raven vs. DDP, Jericho as the king of the Cruiserweights, Eddie in highly featured matches, etc.).

Plus, can't forget that not all of these guys jumped to WWF, and those who did didn't all strike pay-dirt right away. Trips needed to buddy up with HBK first, Austin was nearly "Chilly McFreeze" and basically lucked into creating his own character, Mick Foley has said that Vince came close to cutting him a few times, the Radicalz weren't exactly main eventing right away, etc. etc. Even Jericho, who got to debut cutting a promo on the Rock, didn't get past the midcard for quite awhile.

One major distinction: almost all of these guys agreed that working for WWF was a lot better than working for WCW simply because of the two companies' different structures. Listening to most guys, it sounded like it was a lot easier to feel lost in WCW, and feel like nobody was telling you what was expected of you, whereas in WWF expectations were laid out more clearly. However, that's not the core of what I'm discussing here, I'm talking more about on-air appearances.

So what say y'all?

[mike2789]

I agree with you but if you look at all your examples of when WCW did do good with characters it was the early to mid 90's right before nWo.

WCW portrayed their light-weight division better than the WWF ever would. Billy Kidman for instance had a great run in WCW. I liked Nash and Hall a lot more in WCW. Saturn as well.

[Paco]

You're pretty much right. In the end, they hit the glass ceiling and had to move on.
But until they hit their "limit"...the Benoits, Malenkos, Jerichos and the sort all had GREAT runs in WCW.

[kingoftheindies]

my opinion is that some guys had unrealistic expectations of where they would be at their time in WCW. Jericho pretty much made up his mind early on that he was not gonna stay in WCW.

The Radicals only left because they hated Kevin Sullivan.

[HMARK Center]

Dec 26, 2012 18:30:00 GMT -5 mike2789 said:

I agree with you but if you look at all your examples of when WCW did do good with characters it was the early to mid 90's right before nWo.

WCW portrayed their light-weight division better than the WWF ever would. Billy Kidman for instance had a great run in WCW. I liked Nash and Hall a lot more in WCW. Saturn as well.

You're not wrong, to a degree (I think most impartial observers will agree that WCW circa 1993 up to Hogan's arrival was pretty awesome all around), but even during the nWo era I don't think we can ignore Eddie Guerrero getting high profile matches against guys like Flair or getting to lead the admittedly silly LWO; Benoit still being a Horseman and eventually a consistent World Title contender; Raven and Saturn getting lots of feuds and TV time; Jericho getting pushed big time, getting huge reactions in the Dean Malenko feud, etc.

I just think that some of those guys might've broken through if they had waited a bit...though nothing's a given, considering the creative direction WCW wound up going once we got into later 1998 onward, so my argument might be moot. But still, while I don't ignore for a moment the very limits some guys seemed to have placed on them in WCW, it just strikes me as odd how there's such a sense of "WCW misused everybody, they all had to go to WWF to break out" that pervades many wrestling discussions.

Guess it's a case of the victors writing history.

[RareTradU]

I admit I'm a WCW mark but I have to say that I enjoyed a lot of the guys from WWE a helluva lot more when they worked for WCW. I know they say it was a terrible environment to work in, but they all seemed to do well for themselves. Jericho's character was perfect in WCW. Plus, he had some great matches. Raven's work I really enjoyed in WCW even more-so than his work in ECW.

As much as I enjoyed seeing them though, there was a glass ceiling in WCW. I believe they all would've broken through it if they had stayed eventually. They were all talented enough to do it. Plus, toward the end of WCW, the company seemed to start realizing that they had better start planning for the future making stars. Guys like Booker T, Steiner, Vamprio, The Wall, and more all had pretty good runs. In Jericho's book, he said Bischoff offered him almost $1Million to stay. Had he accepted I truly believe he would've become heavyweight champion at some point.

[notasmark]

People will once again always use this one because WWE says WCW did it this way. The people who say this usually aren't true WCW Fans.

Chris Jericho for example is someone people say should of been main eventing in WCW. He was really young at the time and got really close several times.

Then you got guys like Benoit who people say they pushed JUST to keep him in WCW but the truth is WCW had been pushing him since like June or July of 99, He won the belt in January of 2000. Not as random as everyone thoughts

Guys like William Regal you have to remember were great wrestlers but not good enough entertainers to get a major run.

WCW did okay enough with the young guys. People just love to bring up the old argument of "WCW NEVER PUSHED ANYONE EXCEPT GOLDBERG" despite the abundance of main eventers they made.

[Oh Cry Me a Screwball]

Dec 26, 2012 21:18:31 GMT -5 notasmark said:

Chris Jericho for example is someone people say should of been main eventing in WCW. He was really young at the time and got really close several times.

Then you got guys like Benoit who people say they pushed JUST to keep him in WCW but the truth is WCW had been pushing him since like June or July of 99, He won the belt in January of 2000. Not as random as everyone thoughts

I'll agree with Benoit, as he won several midcard titles in 1999 and Russo had him main event with Bret in Toronto.

But Jericho was never remotely close to the main event. I could see Russo pushing him if he had resigned, but Jericho never came close to touching, much less breaking the glass ceiling in WCW.

[HMARK Center]

Yeah, Jericho wasn't about to main event...but in fairness, Jericho was HEAVILY featured on Nitro, got tons of promo time and featured feuds, and with some time would've likely ascended up the ladder.

Like I said, hell, he even got to WWF and was a midcarder for quite awhile, debut promo against the Rock aside.

[Mayonnaise]

I think WCW did alright, they just suffered from never having one person in control for long. From when Turner bought it in 88 to Bischoff took over in 94/95 they had constant changes in leadership and that lead to the new guy wanting to get people over in their own way which meant ending the one push and starting over. Bischoff did alright using and showcasing talent in his 4 years but also put himself in a corner with the contracts he handed out and letting personal feelings override things.

[Cry Me a Wiggle]

Out of the talents that griped the most about the glass ceiling, only Jericho had a legitimate reason to complain.

I'd argue that Raven, for all of his whining and eventual departure in the summer of 1999, was definitely used better in WCW than he ever was in the WWF. He was a definite upper-midcarder teetering on the main event during his entire time there, rather than the almost gimmickless Heat fodder he became in McManon Land.

The Radicalz would have all stayed in WCW had Sullivan not ousted Russo. Benoit was already on the cusp of being a main event talent and would have had the title in 2000 if those events in January never played out. Guerrero eventually did rise to greater heights in WWE, but his WCW career is nothing to sneeze at, and it's hard to judge because his personal demons weren't resolved until 2003. Malenko and Saturn? They were both big deals in WCW, very prominent midcarders who were always hovering around main event or upper midcarders.

The Giant/Paul Wight/Big Show? He was already a main eventer in WCW with world title runs behind him. He was used in WCW just like he's used today: As someone who could challenge for the world title or hold it, someone who could give a rub to midcarders, someone who could fill out the ranks of the tag division, etc. A jack of all trades, really. Again, any argument that he was misused by WCW is just silly.

Mysterio? WCW used him just fine. He would have held the world title had the company stayed in business. The only thing WCW did wrong by him was forcing him to take off his mask, which was a boneheaded Bischoff idea that I'll never defend.

Jericho? Yes, the WWF/WWE used him better. However, you know Russo would have pushed him to the moon in 1999 and 2000 if he had the chance. Plus, the Jericho gimmick was seriously watered down by McMahon. I think there's a case to be made that while Jericho did achieve much greater success in the WWF, it came at the expense of some of the more entertaining aspects of his personality.

[Cry Me a Wiggle]

Obviously I forgot Austin, because I was mainly focusing on the roster during the Monday Night Wars. Yes, Austin got a raw deal, and it was already clear what a wonderful talent he was before "Stone Cold". Hell, I'd argue that he has a bigger reason to complain than of any of the later guys.

[mike2789]

I agree with Austin. From what I remember, and from what I have watched he was a decent all around talent. He could have been a solid old school wrestler, and if he was never fired from WCW I could still see him becoming a larger name in WCW just through working hard and still developing. I am not saying Stone Cold heights, but I still think the Attitude Era type of wrestling would still occur eventually with or without the Monday Night War.

The poster who mentioned Paul Wight/The Giant... To this day, I still think WCW used him better than WWE has ever! He is a legend but could have been way bigger and popular

[HMARK Center]

Dec 27, 2012 1:42:30 GMT -5 Cry Me a Wiggle said:

Obviously I forgot Austin, because I was mainly focusing on the roster during the Monday Night Wars. Yes, Austin got a raw deal, and it was already clear what a wonderful talent he was before "Stone Cold". Hell, I'd argue that he has a bigger reason to complain than of any of the later guys.

Right, Austin is the fly in this ointment because of WCW's ridiculous decision to let him go...ridiculous especially given how hard they had pushed him in the years leading up to that. Like I said, his US Title run was outstanding, including some of the best matches on any WCW PPV card during the time, and in bouts against some of the absolute biggest names in the company. Why let him go? His run while he was there was more than just very good, he was a near main eventer by 1993.

Still, again, Austin was still well-utilized, by and large, until that absurd decision.

[Cry Me a Wiggle]

I think that the germ of the myth that the WWF used WCW guys better originated from the very valid Austin situation, then exploded when Jericho jumped ship and had a microphone duel with the Rock on his first night. The Radicalz only sealed the perception in the fans' minds, but time showed that Malenko and Saturn were NOT used better, and that Benoit and Guerrero's WCW careers were talked down to play up the legend a bit more.

If anything should have killed this myth, it's the InVasion and subsequent years: Diamond Dallas Page? Lance Storm? Billy Kidman? All great talents, all treated better by WCW. Hell, even Booker T, who still stayed at main event status in WWE, was more legitimate in WCW, and didn't have to become a comedy character to reach main event gold.

[Citizen Snips Has Left]

Dec 26, 2012 20:09:29 GMT -5 HMARK Center said:

Guess it's a case of the victors writing history.

As well as The Wrestling Observer and RD Reynolds

[h]

WCW used the guys just fine.

I loved watching Dean Malenko, Chris Benoit, Juventud Guerrera, Rey Mysterio Jr., Perry Saturn, Psychosis, Jushin Liger, etc.

They faced each other for the most part, and they had their own division. I never wanted to see Dean Malenko vs. The Giant, The Shark vs. Justin Liger, and Big Bubba Rogers vs. Juventud Guerrera. Those matches would have been a huge waste of talent.

So yes, the matches were just fine. It was the apparent lack of interest from the announcers that bothered me so much. The cruiserweight match would take place while the announcers discussed the Dungeon of Doom's campaign to end Hulkamania, then they would get on with the rest of the show after the obligatory "little guy" match was out of the way.

[HMARK Center]

Dec 27, 2012 15:13:24 GMT -5 Citizen Snips Has Left said:

Dec 26, 2012 20:09:29 GMT -5 HMARK Center said:

Guess it's a case of the victors writing history.

As well as The Wrestling Observer and RD Reynolds

In some fairness to those guys, a lot of what they write about when discussing WCW's failures have to do with the awful backstage situations WCW usually found itself dealing with. Worse, many of those wounds were self-inflicted.

I have very little regard for Vince McMahon on any level, but what anybody who works in wrestling tends to tell you is that, if nothing else, the guy has a set idea of what he wants, and it makes for a much more structured, stable, orderly backstage environment (relatively speaking). By contrast, WCW's history is marked by tons of changes in leadership and creative vision, and a big time tendency to give too much power to on-air figures or wrestlers who could wind up booking themselves in ways that were detrimental to the overall product. There's reasons people look back on things like Bischoff trying to "work the boys" and roll their eyes about it, it didn't help the product or sell tickets.

But like I said, I'm less interested in discussing those aspects, and more interested in looking at what happened in the ring and on the air, which is where the myth seems to gain more steam. It always struck me as so weird to hear people accuse WCW of sinking some of these big names, but then to look back and see guys like Foley, Austin, Jericho, Benoit, et. al., either main event big shows or get major focus put on them.

[Paco]

Dec 27, 2012 15:26:43 GMT -5 h said:

They faced each other for the most part, and they had their own division. I never wanted to see Dean Malenko vs. The Giant, The Shark vs. Justin Liger, and Big Bubba Rogers vs. Juventud Guerrera. Those matches would have been a huge waste of talent.

True but even back then I wanted to see the great talents face the real big names. Stuff like Benoit vs. Hogan, Jericho vs. Savage, etc.
That was my only pet peeve with the glass ceiling in WCW. While they were used just fine (or even GREAT), lots of interesting matches were left off the table.

The rare instances matches like those happened, I ate them up with a spoon.

[Allie Kitsune]

Dec 27, 2012 15:05:54 GMT -5 Cry Me a Wiggle said:

I think that the germ of the myth that the WWF used WCW guys better originated from the very valid Austin situation, then exploded when Jericho jumped ship and had a microphone duel with the Rock on his first night. The Radicalz only sealed the perception in the fans' minds, but time showed that Malenko and Saturn were NOT used better, and that Benoit and Guerrero's WCW careers were talked down to play up the legend a bit more.

If anything should have killed this myth, it's the InVasion and subsequent years: Diamond Dallas Page? Lance Storm? Billy Kidman? All great talents, all treated better by WCW. Hell, even Booker T, who still stayed at main event status in WWE, was more legitimate in WCW, and didn't have to become a comedy character to reach main event gold.

DDP's WWE treatment is still mystifying to me. I get that Vince got a bug up his ass from DDP talking himself up as the "Stone Cold of WCW" and the weird-ass hugging thing (the entire Austin/Kurt competing for hugs from Vince thing was a shot at DDP), but he deserved better than jobbing to Sara Taker.

And even now, where he's basically trotted out as a "WCW Muppet", for lack of a better term, whenever WWE wants to sell something WCW related, they drag Page out of mothballs. And it feels like the only do it because they can't get Sting.

DDP got a raw deal all around in McMahonland.