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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Dec 27, 2012 19:01:09 GMT -5
Guess it's a case of the victors writing history. As well as The Wrestling Observer and RD Reynolds ...and the survivors of WCW. While Malenko and Kidman and pretty much every former cruiserweight save Jericho, Eddie, and Rey were booked better in WCW, they were treated better by WWF/E. In WCW they could tear down the curtains in the opening segment then hear things like "vanilla midget" or "Americans don't want to see Mexicans". While Vince has always seemed to respect them if not knowing how to book them. Both Kidman and Malenko have backstage jobs with some security. So when these guys give interviews and we were all expecting the mudslinging to come out it never did. Page had only good things to say about his time there. The bitterness usually comes more often from the Matt Hardy, Ken Anderson types then the DDPs or Lance Storms. The only bad things I have heard were from Chavo(who developed a bad case of Matt Hardy Crazy), Steiner (already crazy but fairly legitimate complaints), and Goldberg after his last wrestlemania, but he's kinda come around a bit again lately.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Dec 27, 2012 20:48:43 GMT -5
well remember, Benoit was over long before 99 being featured heavily against Kevin Sullivan in 96, as part of the Horsemen, and then from 97-99 having great feuds with Booker T and the 3 way feud with Raven and DDP.
Same with Malenko, who for all his Cruiserweight success, he also won the US title, and was pushed as the guy who was trying to reform the Horsemen.
Eddie feuded with Ric Flair and in the early nWo angle was the only guy who was getting consistent clean wins against the nWo.
The Radicals were all guys who had Benoit's back and followed him because of his hatred of Sullivan.
Rey had their back as well but he was more loyal to Konnan and Kidman. Rey also looks back fondly mostly on WCW.
Giant left because he and Bischoff had a falling out stemming from Giant's work ethic.
I mean most people who worked with Eric seemed to like him.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Dec 27, 2012 20:50:09 GMT -5
As well as The Wrestling Observer and RD Reynolds ...and the survivors of WCW. While Malenko and Kidman and pretty much every former cruiserweight save Jericho, Eddie, and Rey were booked better in WCW, they were treated better by WWF/E. In WCW they could tear down the curtains in the opening segment then hear things like "vanilla midget" or "Americans don't want to see Mexicans". While Vince has always seemed to respect them if not knowing how to book them. Both Kidman and Malenko have backstage jobs with some security. So when these guys give interviews and we were all expecting the mudslinging to come out it never did. Page had only good things to say about his time there. The bitterness usually comes more often from the Matt Hardy, Ken Anderson types then the DDPs or Lance Storms. The only bad things I have heard were from Chavo(who developed a bad case of Matt Hardy Crazy), Steiner (already crazy but fairly legitimate complaints), and Goldberg after his last wrestlemania, but he's kinda come around a bit again lately. how big an issue a wrestler has with WWE depends on how seriously they take themselves. Vince doesn't even take himself seriously, he sure isn't going to do it for anyone else.
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Paco
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Paco on Dec 27, 2012 21:33:50 GMT -5
Giant left because he and Bischoff had a falling out stemming from Giant's work ethic. ...and it's not like that dynamic changed with Vince. Look at Giant/Show's 2000 to 2002.
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Jimmy
Grimlock
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Post by Jimmy on Dec 27, 2012 22:01:27 GMT -5
But like I said, I'm less interested in discussing those aspects, and more interested in looking at what happened in the ring and on the air, which is where the myth seems to gain more steam. It always struck me as so weird to hear people accuse WCW of sinking some of these big names, but then to look back and see guys like Foley, Austin, Jericho, Benoit, et. al., either main event big shows or get major focus put on them. Well it's true, none of those guys were ever buried and had their moments in the spotlight. But they only had so much spotlight on them, still being seen as significantly less important than Hogan, Savage, Sting, Flair, Nash, Hall, Luger, Piper etc. Mick knew Halloween Havoc 93 was going to be his only main event, and he was right. I think a lot of it simply had to do with perception. The perception among in the talent in the 90's in the WWF was that if you worked hard enough and clicked with the fans, you could be a top guy. That's what happened to former WCW outcasts like Mean Mark, Stunning Steve, Cactus Jack, and Jean Paul Levesque. Johnny B. Badd and Big Van Vader did alright for themselves though I think both sides expected more from each other. Same for Ron Simmons. Dustin Rhodes was on the verge of main eventing several times. Pillman almost certainly would have exceeded his WCW fame if not for his untimely death. Meanwhile, look at WCW. Diamond Studd and Vinnie Vegas were made into stars in the WWF, and got pushed in WCW because of it. But for Malenko, Benoit, Guerrero, Saturn, Chavo, Jericho, Mysterio, Kidman, Wright, Regal, Disco Inferno, etc, there was no real elevation. Instead they were used in their role and saw WWF stars who weren't anymore over than they were (Syxx, Jeff Jarrett, Curt Hennig, Brian Adams) jump over or guy with no talent (Renegade, Steve McMichael)immediately get pushes equal to or surpassing their own. Maybe they could hack it as main eventers (Benoit, Guerrero, Jericho, Mysterio), maybe they couldn't (the rest). But in the WWF, at least you had a chance. Your spot wasn't your permanent spot. Hell, Benoit didn't get pushed as a main eventer until WWF writer Vince Russo took over over. Same for Booker.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 27, 2012 22:15:06 GMT -5
I certainly won't say that a "glass ceiling" didn't exist in WCW, especially given the backstage influences of the entrenched stars. However, I still think it's worth noting how guys like Benoit actually won the World Title in WCW...over three years before he did in WWE. And none of Jericho, Guerrero, Benoit, Mysterio, Booker T, etc. came into WWF/E and had rapid fire success.
Still, you're not wrong; listening to some guys speak on the WCW days, you see guys who needed three years or so to really rise up the card and it felt like hell...then they go to WWE, need three years to rise up the card, but it felt more natural to them. There is certainly something to be said for that.
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Post by evilone on Dec 28, 2012 1:19:18 GMT -5
Obviously I forgot Austin, because I was mainly focusing on the roster during the Monday Night Wars. Yes, Austin got a raw deal, and it was already clear what a wonderful talent he was before "Stone Cold". Hell, I'd argue that he has a bigger reason to complain than of any of the later guys. Right, Austin is the fly in this ointment because of WCW's ridiculous decision to let him go...ridiculous especially given how hard they had pushed him in the years leading up to that. Like I said, his US Title run was outstanding, including some of the best matches on any WCW PPV card during the time, and in bouts against some of the absolute biggest names in the company. Why let him go? His run while he was there was more than just very good, he was a near main eventer by 1993. Still, again, Austin was still well-utilized, by and large, until that absurd decision. Are you saying that because he is "Stone Cold" or because you really enjoyed his run? I couldn't stand him in his US title run. I never understood why were they pushing him, he was no good heel, he had no charisma and his matches dragged on forever. Honestly he couldn't hold a candle to Pillman and if I were to pick one of the two it would be Brian every single day. Now if you believe that he could have become Stone Cold in WCW that's where you would be dead wrong. Steve Austin would never be what he is today if he stayed in WCW. Different circumstances, different game so WCW never missed a boat with him actually.
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Dec 28, 2012 3:41:23 GMT -5
I'm not saying Eric wasn't liked. Even Russo was liked by a lot of the guys, but it was the entire system at WCW that the guys didn't like. Were you answering to Bischoff or whichever of his boys he had running the place at the time or Russo or some exec at Turner? When you were frustrated at WCW you really had no proper way to deal with it. In WWF there was just as much backstage bs but the heirarchy was much easier to figure out and there was always someone to address a situation no matter how small. I know this has nothing to do with the booking but it does have a lot to do with how the talent viewed their workplace.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 28, 2012 10:12:18 GMT -5
Right, Austin is the fly in this ointment because of WCW's ridiculous decision to let him go...ridiculous especially given how hard they had pushed him in the years leading up to that. Like I said, his US Title run was outstanding, including some of the best matches on any WCW PPV card during the time, and in bouts against some of the absolute biggest names in the company. Why let him go? His run while he was there was more than just very good, he was a near main eventer by 1993. Still, again, Austin was still well-utilized, by and large, until that absurd decision. Are you saying that because he is "Stone Cold" or because you really enjoyed his run? I couldn't stand him in his US title run. I never understood why were they pushing him, he was no good heel, he had no charisma and his matches dragged on forever. Honestly he couldn't hold a candle to Pillman and if I were to pick one of the two it would be Brian every single day. Now if you believe that he could have become Stone Cold in WCW that's where you would be dead wrong. Steve Austin would never be what he is today if he stayed in WCW. Different circumstances, different game so WCW never missed a boat with him actually. That's fine if that's your opinion; I've honestly enjoyed the vast majority of matches I've seen from Austin's US Title run, the quality of the matches were something you rarely saw back in the early 90's.
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Paco
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 7,145
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Post by Paco on Dec 28, 2012 18:39:09 GMT -5
I could watch Stunning Steve vs. Ricky Steamboat matches all day!
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Post by Vice honcho room temperature on Dec 28, 2012 23:33:54 GMT -5
I certainly won't say that a "glass ceiling" didn't exist in WCW, especially given the backstage influences of the entrenched stars. However, I still think it's worth noting how guys like Benoit actually won the World Title in WCW...over three years before he did in WWE. And none of Jericho, Guerrero, Benoit, Mysterio, Booker T, etc. came into WWF/E and had rapid fire success. Still, you're not wrong; listening to some guys speak on the WCW days, you see guys who needed three years or so to really rise up the card and it felt like hell...then they go to WWE, need three years to rise up the card, but it felt more natural to them. There is certainly something to be said for that. I think sometimes when a person moves companies its the thing that can push them into the main event too. Mick Foley was years off from being a world champ he needed to move around a bit to get there. Would probably help some in WWE today if they could move companies once in a while to something on its level. (Kofi Kingston imo)
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