Jimmy
Grimlock
Posts: 13,317
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Post by Jimmy on Jan 4, 2013 20:44:27 GMT -5
And that he has incorrectly been remembering a notable moment in WCW history for years. www.wwe.com/classics/foley-nash-jan-4-1999-26081539Maybe I'd be more willing to let it slide if he wasn't so obnoxious about it, but obviously Big Kev is confusing the beginning of 1999 with the ending of 1999 and has been for years now. Goldberg did not put his arm through the limo window and subsequently put himself out of action after the Fingerpoke of Doom on January 4, 1999, he did it on the December 23, 1999 edition of Thunder trying to, in storyline, go after the yet-again reformed nWo (led by Bret Hart) and "The Powers That Be" (Vince Russo). After the Fingerpoke of Doom, Goldberg was perfectly healthy and faced Scott Hall at Souled Out, Bam Bam Bigelow at Superbrawl, Nash at Spring Stampede, Sting at Slamboree, etc. I am sure the plan was to have Goldberg go through the nWo, but it quickly fell by the wayside as Flair won the WCW title from Hogan, DDP from Flair, Nash from DDP, Savage from Nash, Hogan from Savage, etc, etc, etc. But then again, I'm just a [know-it-all]. With that said, he's pretty much dead on in this regard |
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Mochi Lone Wolf
Fry's dog Seymour
Development through Destruction.
Posts: 24,031 
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Jan 4, 2013 21:01:34 GMT -5
I've heard that they already had plans to do something with that and use the storyline of how "NWO spat in the face of tradition" and the like(Which was proven by Ric Flair's promo on the Thunder after the fingerpoke) that would also have had Goldberg fight his way back to Nash through Bam Bam, Sid, and others. Unfortunatly, guys in that supposed path starting get hurt as well.
For example, Scott Hall had a WCW employee run over his foot and Hogan also got hurt around that time as well. So apparently, that messed some things up as well.
I think there is no doubt that the fingerpoke was a bad decision, but it looked worse once things started falling apart with injuries on the NWO stable.
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Post by slappy on Jan 4, 2013 21:04:48 GMT -5
I know people like to say the ending of WrestleMania 9 was ok because it sent the fans home happy. They did in fact cheer Hogan after winning the title. The same then should apply to Nash vs Goldberg. When Nash beat Goldberg, the crowd erupted in cheer for Nash. They actually started cheering when Hall used the stun gun on Goldberg and continued to cheer past the end of the match, just getting louder and louder.
I think it was the right thing to do to end the streak. It had to end some time. Was Nash the right person to end it? The fans there seemed to think so. I know I'm not upset about it.
The WCW title just changed hands too much and too quickly. I wish they would have put off the finger poke of doom for several months. However, I'm glad they did it on Nitro and not a PPV.
I know I'm going to be grouping people together on this comment but anyways, people seem to think when HHH and HBK had their match which was a precursor to the finger poke of doom that it was funny or not that big of a deal but when you get two people hated by the IWC in Hogan and Nash then it's bad. I know the titles were different, one being a World title and the other being a mid-card title, but at least the finger poke of doom had a reason, to get the NWO back together, rather than the shenanigans of HBK and HHH which served no real purpose.
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Jimmy
Grimlock
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Post by Jimmy on Jan 4, 2013 21:10:41 GMT -5
I know people like to say the ending of WrestleMania 9 was ok because it sent the fans home happy. They did in fact cheer Hogan after winning the title. The same then should apply to Nash vs Goldberg. When Nash beat Goldberg, the crowd erupted in cheer for Nash. They actually started cheering when Hall used the stun gun on Goldberg and continued to cheer past the end of the match, just getting louder and louder. I think it was the right thing to do to end the streak. It had to end some time. Was Nash the right person to end it? The fans there seemed to think so. I know I'm not upset about it. There was definitely a portion of the crowd that had turned on Goldberg, but the fact is that he was still drawing tons of money. While crowd reaction at live events is important, even more important is that they are buying tickets to be there, buying PPV's, and tuning into the TV show. By those measures, there was no reason to end the streak when they did. There are plenty of factors involved, but the simple math of it is that it was shortly after Goldberg was bounced from the main event/world title scene that those numbers went into a tailspin they never recovered from. But it is what it is. |
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Post by slappy on Jan 4, 2013 21:22:56 GMT -5
I know people like to say the ending of WrestleMania 9 was ok because it sent the fans home happy. They did in fact cheer Hogan after winning the title. The same then should apply to Nash vs Goldberg. When Nash beat Goldberg, the crowd erupted in cheer for Nash. They actually started cheering when Hall used the stun gun on Goldberg and continued to cheer past the end of the match, just getting louder and louder. I think it was the right thing to do to end the streak. It had to end some time. Was Nash the right person to end it? The fans there seemed to think so. I know I'm not upset about it. There was definitely a portion of the crowd that had turned on Goldberg, but the fact is that he was still drawing tons of money. While crowd reaction at live events is important, even more important is that they are buying tickets to be there, buying PPV's, and tuning into the TV show. By those measures, there was no reason to end the streak when they did. There are plenty of factors involved, but the simple math of it is that it was shortly after Goldberg was bounced from the main event/world title scene that those numbers went into a tailspin they never recovered from. But it is what it is. I think that was a bigger problem than the streak ending. Not that Ryback is anything like Goldberg, but it's the same situation in that what do you do with an unstoppable "monster" after they've been stopped? Obviously WCW dropped the ball on the aftermath. They could have kept Goldberg as a top challenger. Face and beat Hall at the next PPV. Then beat Nash at the next PPV as revenge for beating him originally. Then finally he could have feuded with Hogan to get the belt back, toppling the head of the newly reformed NWO, but like you said Hogan lost the title to Flair so Goldberg had nowhere to go after that. |
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Post by corndog on Jan 4, 2013 21:43:33 GMT -5
I know I'm going to be grouping people together on this comment but anyways, people seem to think when HHH and HBK had their match which was a precursor to the finger poke of doom that it was funny or not that big of a deal but when you get two people hated by the IWC in Hogan and Nash then it's bad. I know the titles were different, one being a World title and the other being a mid-card title, but at least the finger poke of doom had a reason, to get the NWO back together, rather than the shenanigans of HBK and HHH which served no real purpose. Huge difference between the two fingerpokes of doom and their impact on the business. Not saying the HBK/HHH one was right, but it made alot more sense for business reasons. Before the match was made there was absolutely no sign that HBK/HHH were fueding and it made sense for the storyline, because they outsmarted Sgt. Slaughter, who they were fueding with. Also it seperated the European and World titles, which helped things as well. It was definitely politically influenced, but people didn't stop watching Raw for good because two guys who were best friends in both real life and kayfabe didn't fight each other. Then there was the Hogan/Nash fingerpoke of doom. Sure same thing really, but COMPLETELY different situation. This is two guys who were fueding for nearly the last year and this had big money fued written all over it. Couple that with the fact that alot of WCW fans, like myself, were sick of WCW ending fueds disappointingly. At this point WCW and WWF were nearly in a dead heat, so WCW still was doing quite well. But they had made some stupid decisions over the past year that were turning viewers to the WWF and WWF was doing all the right things. Going into a night where they knew WWF would have a title change, which people love to see and they knew would tune in for, they had two options. Call it a loss and just operate WCW as normal, set up for a big match down the line. Or bring out all the stops and try to keep the veiwers, which announcing Hogan vs Nash was that stop. This was the biggest match WCW could possibly have at that point and the fued was built for nearly a year, it also had never happened before. People wanted to see this match, so they ones that stayed decided to watch it over a world title change, and alot of people still watched this match(despite Raw beating Nitro that night, both shows scored 6s). These people were rewarded with "the Fingerpoke of Doom" and many, including myself, completely gave up on WCW that night. We suffered through Hogan/Sting at Starrcade, Warrior/Hogan at Halloween Havoc and most recently the Goldberg/Nash garbage. This was a chance for WCW to redeem themselves, a chance to say "we will deliver for our fans" and instead they gave the finger to their fans once again, because they two overpaid hasbeens had too big of egos to agree on a clean finish. After this WCW lost momentum and was no longer running with WWF and became a clear and distant #2 in the race. I would say it's pretty freaking obvious this hurt WCW. Did it put them out of business? No, but it was clearly a bad business decision that hurt the company and pretty much ended the Monday Night Wars. |
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Jan 4, 2013 22:06:41 GMT -5
Nash said on the nWo Roundtable that you had to end the streak because Goldberg was undefeated for what was about a year and a half at least and just won the title. After that, there wasn't much for the guy to do and you also risked having him become the streak. To the point where if he lost, he'd be done.
He has somewhat of a point there. You had to end it eventually and it's not like he had anywhere else to go if he beat Nash
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Jimmy
Grimlock
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Post by Jimmy on Jan 4, 2013 22:23:01 GMT -5
it's not like he had anywhere else to go if he beat Nash Flair Warrior (it was more important to get Hogan his win back though, brother) Savage Hart Sting (they only had a match on Nitro with no finish to that point) Luger Hall Piper Jericho Elevated guy like Bam Bam Bigelow, Booker T, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit, or Scott Steiner. |
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Post by slappy on Jan 4, 2013 22:47:22 GMT -5
I know I'm going to be grouping people together on this comment but anyways, people seem to think when HHH and HBK had their match which was a precursor to the finger poke of doom that it was funny or not that big of a deal but when you get two people hated by the IWC in Hogan and Nash then it's bad. I know the titles were different, one being a World title and the other being a mid-card title, but at least the finger poke of doom had a reason, to get the NWO back together, rather than the shenanigans of HBK and HHH which served no real purpose. Huge difference between the two fingerpokes of doom and their impact on the business. Not saying the HBK/HHH one was right, but it made alot more sense for business reasons. Before the match was made there was absolutely no sign that HBK/HHH were fueding and it made sense for the storyline, because they outsmarted Sgt. Slaughter, who they were fueding with. Also it seperated the European and World titles, which helped things as well. It was definitely politically influenced, but people didn't stop watching Raw for good because two guys who were best friends in both real life and kayfabe didn't fight each other. Then there was the Hogan/Nash fingerpoke of doom. Sure same thing really, but COMPLETELY different situation. This is two guys who were fueding for nearly the last year and this had big money fued written all over it. Couple that with the fact that alot of WCW fans, like myself, were sick of WCW ending fueds disappointingly. At this point WCW and WWF were nearly in a dead heat, so WCW still was doing quite well. But they had made some stupid decisions over the past year that were turning viewers to the WWF and WWF was doing all the right things. Going into a night where they knew WWF would have a title change, which people love to see and they knew would tune in for, they had two options. Call it a loss and just operate WCW as normal, set up for a big match down the line. Or bring out all the stops and try to keep the veiwers, which announcing Hogan vs Nash was that stop. This was the biggest match WCW could possibly have at that point and the fued was built for nearly a year, it also had never happened before. People wanted to see this match, so they ones that stayed decided to watch it over a world title change, and alot of people still watched this match(despite Raw beating Nitro that night, both shows scored 6s). These people were rewarded with "the Fingerpoke of Doom" and many, including myself, completely gave up on WCW that night. We suffered through Hogan/Sting at Starrcade, Warrior/Hogan at Halloween Havoc and most recently the Goldberg/Nash garbage. This was a chance for WCW to redeem themselves, a chance to say "we will deliver for our fans" and instead they gave the finger to their fans once again, because they two overpaid hasbeens had too big of egos to agree on a clean finish. After this WCW lost momentum and was no longer running with WWF and became a clear and distant #2 in the race. I would say it's pretty freaking obvious this hurt WCW. Did it put them out of business? No, but it was clearly a bad business decision that hurt the company and pretty much ended the Monday Night Wars. Yes, the FPoD was a slap in the face. They could have delayed it or of course not done it at all. They wanted the NWO back together and they thought this was the best way to do it though I'm sure they could have come up with better ideas. Outside of one week, the WWF was beating WCW in the ratings (sometimes by a full point) since October of 1998 and except for 8 nonconsecutive weeks since April of 1998. People didn't tune out of WCW right away either. The next week had the same exact rating as the FPoD show. They had been getting ratings in the 4s and 5s (outside of several weeks) since 1997. They didn't start falling below those ratings until nearly 4 months after the FPoD show. |
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Jan 4, 2013 23:06:27 GMT -5
ending the streak would have been fine, if they'd kept the belt on Nash
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NOwave
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,735
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Post by NOwave on Jan 5, 2013 0:34:30 GMT -5
I've read a number of times about Kevin Nash's tremendous level of understanding of the business. And yet he says stuff like this. It's just contradictory.
He is still unwilling to admit how badly the FPOD was perceived by the fans, to the point of calling them names. Amazing for a guy who supposedly is so smart about the business. Rule #1:(in any business serving customers) The customer(fan) is always right. If the fans say it was stupid (and quit watching after it occurred) then it WAS stupid, plain and simple. He still isnt willing to accept that. Clearly, Mick Foley has a MUCH stronger grasp of the business than Nash does. Fascinating.
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Post by Rolent Tex on Jan 5, 2013 3:13:47 GMT -5
it's not like he had anywhere else to go if he beat Nash Flair Warrior (it was more important to get Hogan his win back though, brother) Savage Hart Sting (they only had a match on Nitro with no finish to that point) Luger Hall Piper Jericho Elevated guy like Bam Bam Bigelow, Booker T, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit, or Scott Steiner. Benoit was the guy I was convinced was going to end Goldberg's streak. No tapping out, just Goldberg passing out in the Crippler Crossface like Raven did. |
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Jan 5, 2013 3:48:01 GMT -5
ending the streak would have been fine, if they'd kept the belt on Nash Agreed. Nash and the Wolfpac were white hot as rebel-babyfaces, and giving them the title was a great move in keeping them in the spot light. It's just that Nash laying down to Hogan and merging the two factions back did nothing but set the company back to 1997 when people were clamoring for something that hadn't already been done, like Goldberg or a babyface Wolfpac. Hell, DDP getting the rub on Goldberg would have been a million times better. |
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Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Jan 5, 2013 4:05:18 GMT -5
No one would care about the Fingerpoke angle if the on-air talent hadn't given the WWE's main event spoiler thus enticing 600,000 people to change the channel.
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Post by thegame415 on Jan 5, 2013 4:15:58 GMT -5
I'm a believer that the streak should've continued, maybe even into the year 2000. I think WCW could've debuted other guys with undefeated streaks and winning streaks. They kind of did with Wrath and Meng, but the matches were just throwaways.
That being said, I think Hogan should've returned at Starrcade and cost Nash the match. His reason being jealousy, since he didn't want Nash to do what he couldn't. This announcement could've came on 1 4 1999, along with a Goldberg vs Nash rematch where Goldberg goes over clean.
Realistically, I think WCW could've built either Bret Hart or Scott Steiner as potentials to end the streak.
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tms
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,901
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Post by tms on Jan 5, 2013 10:17:15 GMT -5
I think Hogan should've returned at Starrcade and cost Nash the match. His reason being jealousy, since he didn't want Nash to do what he couldn't. Hogan did that already, though, when Sting fought Goldberg in a face vs. face match. Sting had him in the deathlock when Hogan came out and KO'd Sting by kicking him in the back of the head, allowing Goldberg to set up for the spear/jackhammer. It was pretty much the closest thing Goldberg had for a kayfabe babyface loss, along with taking the diamond cutter at HH vs DDP. In both situations, it seemed like Sting and Page would have won if Hogan hadn't interfered and Page had covered Goldberg immediately, respectively. Back on-topic, I'm not sure that Nash is brilliant so much as he is self-serving. He never seems able to take responsibility for the crap he booked. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2013 11:06:27 GMT -5
What's interesting, and Foley mentioned this on the "Monday Night War" DVD, is that WCW won the overrun period that night by a significant margin. People tuned into see Foley win the title, and as soon as he did, they switched to Nitro.
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NOwave
Don Corleone
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Post by NOwave on Jan 5, 2013 17:08:50 GMT -5
Compare Nash's attitude about this to Dusty Rhodes: Both have booked horrendously bad angles(Fingerpoke of Doom, The Shock Master) and yet they completely different attitudes about them.
Dusty can laugh at himself and his mistakes, while Nash calls internet fans "know it alls" and still doesnt accept that FPOD turned people off.
Basically, Nash is a self-serving smart ass and Dusty is a good guy.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Jan 5, 2013 18:10:06 GMT -5
doesn't Nash say that he wasn't in charge of booking at that point?
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Post by slappy on Jan 5, 2013 18:16:14 GMT -5
doesn't Nash say that he wasn't in charge of booking at that point? |
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