beamanhogan
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Post by beamanhogan on Jan 6, 2013 15:27:38 GMT -5
I am a huge hockey fan. The biggest issue that hockey has is that the product does not televise nearly as well as it is in person. Personally, I feel the opposite is true for football. You really notice all of the breaks in play at an NFL game. On TV, not as much since they are showing states and replaying everything.
Personally, there is no point for hockey to try and be a top 3 sport. With the availability of getting games easier than ever, they can market easier to their already fans. It is a niche sport, however, they need to realize that there is nothing wrong with that.
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Reflecto
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Post by Reflecto on Jan 6, 2013 15:38:48 GMT -5
That's also a big reason that the biggest point [and the reason Bettman is failing as an NHL commissioner...or one of them] is that the NHL needs to go to cities that don't have NBA teams (unfortunately, since Bettman went to the NHL from the NBA, he's going to the wrong markets.) The Sun Belt expansion is the good example here: If you look at the Southern/Western teams, the point becomes clear: The Sun Belt has nine teams right now. The teams that are failing tend to be teams competing with an NBA team (Panthers/Heat, Thrashers/Hawks, and Coyotes/Suns- only Stars-Mavericks has managed to thrive well enough), and the teams that are doing well enough for themselves are in cities that don't have an NBA team (Nashville [instead of Memphis], San Jose [instead of Oakland/San Francisco], St.Louis, Tampa Bay [instead of Orlando], Anaheim, and Raleigh-Durham [instead of Charlotte.])
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nate5054
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Post by nate5054 on Jan 6, 2013 15:41:48 GMT -5
Hockey will always be a fourth tier sport in the US. Probably for a few reasons: 1) It's low scoring, much like soccer, though admittedly it's a much faster paced sport than soccer. On one hand though football is low scoring if you accounted for the fact that TDs are worth 6 points instead of 1, but even if a football team is down 3 scores it feels to me (again, just a personal view here) that there is a path a team can come back from. A 3 goal lead in hockey feels almost insurmountable (though not like soccer where it feels like it's just totally impossible to come back from). 2) It's hard to tell who the players are, especially with all the line changes. Honestly I have no clue who is on the ice half the time I'm watching a hockey game. Interestingly enough I did like playing NHL video games back in the day because the player's name would float about their body in the game. I'd honestly like hockey more if I could figure out how to watch a game like that, though I'll admit I'm probably in the minority. To expand on that while I haven't really followed hockey much in the past 6 years or so, especially because the Avs haven't been that good, I do know Ryan O'Rielly and Matt Duchane (and the Swedish kid they got last season whose name is not only escaping me but I have no chance in hell of spelling...Landerskog I think) are the star players for the team, but I don't know their numbers and have no idea what lines they are on and when that line is on the ice. The fact they all wear helmets and look the same really hurts, though for safety reasons they should. It doesn't hurt that much in the NFL because the QB is usually the major star and you know where he is at all times. 3) It's just not culturally ingrained in the US other than the northeast. Hell I live in Colorado where we have an NHL team that has won two Stanley Cups since they've moved here and has two pretty damn good college hockey teams and nobody really cares (not that there isn't a good hockey fanbase here, but I hardly hear about hockey being talked in the office unless maybe the Avs are in the Stanley Cup Finals). Let alone places like California and most of the south. Related to this problem is that it's really expensive to play. I wanted to play hockey as a kid but the cost and the fact the only rink was a half hour away from our house made it nearly impossible. If you're a NFL fan I don't get the 2nd part of your argument since it's harder to keep track of 24 players in the NFL and the camera isn't directly following a player behind like they usually do in hockey where the number appears bigger on TV as well since it's not so zoomed out to keep track of 24 players. The difference is huge. In football players for the most part are contained to a side, so if you're following one team it cuts the number down in half depending who is on offense/defense. Also, the star players are even more limited. It's not all that necessary to know who is on the OL. The QB, RB and the WRs are in the same place. Finally after a guy makes a play his name is called and the play is replayed due to the nature of football. Not just a scoring play but even routine plays. In hockey guys are all over the place all the time, but more importantly guys are constantly moving on and off the ice. Peyton Manning is not going to run off the field for the backup Bronco QB to run in and throw a pass. In hockey it is just always happening.
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triplethreatmark
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Post by triplethreatmark on Jan 6, 2013 16:36:14 GMT -5
If you're a NFL fan I don't get the 2nd part of your argument since it's harder to keep track of 24 players in the NFL and the camera isn't directly following a player behind like they usually do in hockey where the number appears bigger on TV as well since it's not so zoomed out to keep track of 24 players. The difference is huge. In football players for the most part are contained to a side, so if you're following one team it cuts the number down in half depending who is on offense/defense. Also, the star players are even more limited. It's not all that necessary to know who is on the OL. The QB, RB and the WRs are in the same place. Finally after a guy makes a play his name is called and the play is replayed due to the nature of football. Not just a scoring play but even routine plays. In hockey guys are all over the place all the time, but more importantly guys are constantly moving on and off the ice. Peyton Manning is not going to run off the field for the backup Bronco QB to run in and throw a pass. In hockey it is just always happening. But the game itself doesn't allow for the same players to be out there for more than a minute unless you're on the Power play, but even then there are two power play units, not just one. This goes back to that one point that someone said where the game would appeal more to American audiences if there were changes made to the game itself, but that would severely damage the integrity of the game.
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nate5054
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Post by nate5054 on Jan 6, 2013 16:40:51 GMT -5
Oh I agree, I would never suggest they change the rules. Hockey is a damn fine game as it is.
Still that being said that's the biggest problem to me. I've always been genuinely curious how hockey fans watch the game. Do you guys just know all the jersey numbers? I'm a huge NBA fan and I know most of them for the Jazz (my favorite NBA team), but I also just know what the guys look like, and the fact that subs are made less regularly.
For hockey fans do you all just know every player on every line, or do you know one or two that relays to you which line is it? When the lines shift is everyone going off the ice, or do sometimes defensemen stay on while the wings/center changes? I honestly don't know. If I could figure that out it would probably make the game a lot more interesting to me, though (and this isn't the fault of hockey) my sports plate is pretty full with basketball and football so I'm not sure I'd even watch enough hockey to get it down.
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triplethreatmark
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Post by triplethreatmark on Jan 6, 2013 16:57:17 GMT -5
Oh I agree, I would never suggest they change the rules. Hockey is a damn fine game as it is. Still that being said that's the biggest problem to me. I've always been genuinely curious how hockey fans watch the game. Do you guys just know all the jersey numbers? I'm a huge NBA fan and I know most of them for the Jazz (my favorite NBA team), but I also just know what the guys look like, and the fact that subs are made less regularly. For hockey fans do you all just know every player on every line, or do you know one or two that relays to you which line is it? When the lines shift is everyone going off the ice, or do sometimes defensemen stay on while the wings/center changes? I honestly don't know. If I could figure that out it would probably make the game a lot more interesting to me, though (and this isn't the fault of hockey) my sports plate is pretty full with basketball and football so I'm not sure I'd even watch enough hockey to get it down. It's great that you asked this and maybe the other hockey fans can chime in on how they memorize their teams lines and rosters. This is basically what I do. Before every season starts, I look online and memorize the projected Depth Chart/Roster about a week or two before the season starts. Then the first week or so is just seeing them out there to re-affirm what I've memorized and to pay attention and pick up on what the coaching staff's preferred subs are and notice who they're paired up with. That's how I know that they play on that line or that defensive pair. As the season progresses, line ups and lines may change drastically but if you constantly watch and are able to at least be familiar with the most basic team line-up you should be okay when watching the game and noticing who's on and if any changes were made before or during the game.
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Post by Vice honcho room temperature on Jan 7, 2013 1:40:09 GMT -5
Oh I agree, I would never suggest they change the rules. Hockey is a damn fine game as it is. Still that being said that's the biggest problem to me. I've always been genuinely curious how hockey fans watch the game. Do you guys just know all the jersey numbers? I'm a huge NBA fan and I know most of them for the Jazz (my favorite NBA team), but I also just know what the guys look like, and the fact that subs are made less regularly. For hockey fans do you all just know every player on every line, or do you know one or two that relays to you which line is it? When the lines shift is everyone going off the ice, or do sometimes defensemen stay on while the wings/center changes? I honestly don't know. If I could figure that out it would probably make the game a lot more interesting to me, though (and this isn't the fault of hockey) my sports plate is pretty full with basketball and football so I'm not sure I'd even watch enough hockey to get it down. It's great that you asked this and maybe the other hockey fans can chime in on how they memorize their teams lines and rosters. This is basically what I do. Before every season starts, I look online and memorize the projected Depth Chart/Roster about a week or two before the season starts. Then the first week or so is just seeing them out there to re-affirm what I've memorized and to pay attention and pick up on what the coaching staff's preferred subs are and notice who they're paired up with. That's how I know that they play on that line or that defensive pair. As the season progresses, line ups and lines may change drastically but if you constantly watch and are able to at least be familiar with the most basic team line-up you should be okay when watching the game and noticing who's on and if any changes were made before or during the game. For me you watch enough games and you just learn it. The announcers help
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Post by Orange on Jan 7, 2013 1:51:45 GMT -5
Not going into lockout every few years would help TREMENDOUSLY.
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triplethreatmark
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Post by triplethreatmark on Jan 7, 2013 2:31:23 GMT -5
Not going into lockout every few years would help TREMENDOUSLY. No offense to you, but I think that goes without saying. A lot of loyal fans won't be coming back at all after this lockout. What in your opinion would it take to get you to watch more regularly though? Maybe not as a die hard, but as casual fan, at least.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Jan 7, 2013 3:26:53 GMT -5
Not going into lockout every few years would help TREMENDOUSLY. No offense to you, but I think that goes without saying. A lot of loyal fans won't be coming back at all after this lockout. I can attest to stuff like this being a major factor my brother was really into hockey in the late 90's early year 2000's, but the 2005 lockout completely killed his interest. I wouldn't doubt that this isn't an uncommon phenomenon.
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Push R Truth
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Post by Push R Truth on Jan 7, 2013 9:20:09 GMT -5
ON a completely personal level, if they only played once or twice a week for a total of about 20-30 games, I'd watch the hell out of it.
I like it when every game feels like the Life or Death of the season. College/Pro Football currently does this to perfection. MLB/NBA currently is the complete opposite, where many games come off as "meh, we play AGAIN today. I'll half ass it"
Or you get teams the purposely sit older guys for a couple games. Which is probably smart coaching, but if I dropped a couple hundred for a trip to go see my team and it ended up being a one of those games, I'd go apecrap.
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Post by Jedi-El of Tomorrow on Jan 7, 2013 9:42:40 GMT -5
No offense to you, but I think that goes without saying. A lot of loyal fans won't be coming back at all after this lockout. I can attest to stuff like this being a major factor my brother was really into hockey in the late 90's early year 2000's, but the 2005 lockout completely killed his interest. I wouldn't doubt that this isn't an uncommon phenomenon. That describes me. I loved the NHL until the 2004-2005 lockout took away the season. After that I had the mindset of "f*** you, NHL." They had a lockout which caused the season to be halved 10 years earlier, and then there was no season. I paid attention to Ovechkin and Crosby (didn't watch the games but wanted to know how they did), but outside of that I didn't give a f***. And that was the ultimate stupidity of the NHL, you had talent like that coming into the league, and we get a lockout.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jan 7, 2013 9:56:06 GMT -5
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triplethreatmark
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Post by triplethreatmark on Jan 7, 2013 12:20:50 GMT -5
Yup.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2013 12:25:02 GMT -5
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Post by kingoftheindies on Jan 7, 2013 13:19:23 GMT -5
Big thing is better marketing.
I'll use the comparison with MLS. Now while the MLS doesn't do great numbers on TV, it's a growing market that Don Garber and the league have done a good job re-building the brand. In the early 2000's, they had to contract two teams. Now they've added a bunch of expansion teams since 2006; Toronto,Chivas, RSL, San Jose, Philly, Seattle, Portland, Vancouver, and Montreal with more teams in consideration. MLS is also technically the 2nd most profitable pro league in the US behind only the NFL.
With the NHL, I think it depends on how much the team embraces the community. Despite financial problems a few years ago, Nashville has really embraced the Predators because of how management went out of their way to embrace the city. Same has happened in Carolina, and the California teams.
While in Atlanta, the Thrashers never really did much to embrace the city. They briefly tried way back when they had Dany Heatley, but then he had his crash. They never really tried promoting Kovy or Hossa.
I live near Hershey and the Bears are treated like Rock Stars in the Harrisburg area. Hell we have a USL (3rd level soccer) team called the City Islanders and they are treated like rock stars because the owners go out of the way to promote their teams. When I went to visit my cousin in Atlanta a few years ago, you never heard anybody ever mention the Thrashers. Hell, you never heard jack about the Bluejackets in Columbus.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jan 7, 2013 13:29:49 GMT -5
Big thing is better marketing. I'll use the comparison with MLS. Now while the MLS doesn't do great numbers on TV, it's a growing market that Don Garber and the league have done a good job re-building the brand. In the early 2000's, they had to contract two teams. Now they've added a bunch of expansion teams since 2006; Toronto,Chivas, RSL, San Jose, Philly, Seattle, Portland, Vancouver, and Montreal with more teams in consideration. MLS is also technically the 2nd most profitable pro league in the US behind only the NFL. With the NHL, I think it depends on how much the team embraces the community. Despite financial problems a few years ago, Nashville has really embraced the Predators because of how management went out of their way to embrace the city. Same has happened in Carolina, and the California teams. While in Atlanta, the Thrashers never really did much to embrace the city. They briefly tried way back when they had Dany Heatley, but then he had his crash. They never really tried promoting Kovy or Hossa. I live near Hershey and the Bears are treated like Rock Stars in the Harrisburg area. Hell we have a USL (3rd level soccer) team called the City Islanders and they are treated like rock stars because the owners go out of the way to promote their teams. When I went to visit my cousin in Atlanta a few years ago, you never heard anybody ever mention the Thrashers. Hell, you never heard jack about the Bluejackets in Columbus. It kind of helps that the Bears ownership is seperate from Capitals ownership, and their philosopshy is to load up on as many 'proven' AHL-lifers as possible instead of playing prospects expected to have NHL upside. More than maybe any other AHL team, the Bears are focused more on winning Calder Cups than they are developing talent (goaltenders aside) for their NHL affiliate. And yeah, Bears fans tend to border on obsessive.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2013 13:47:59 GMT -5
I am a huge hockey fan. The biggest issue that hockey has is that the product does not televise nearly as well as it is in person. Personally, I feel the opposite is true for football. You really notice all of the breaks in play at an NFL game. On TV, not as much since they are showing states and replaying everything. Personally, there is no point for hockey to try and be a top 3 sport. With the availability of getting games easier than ever, they can market easier to their already fans. It is a niche sport, however, they need to realize that there is nothing wrong with that. I would love it if you became a NHL thread regular. In fact I would love it if we get more Users has members of the NHL FAN Community. Plus I'm assuming you're a Wild fan and I would love to have a fan who is a fan of a NW Division team. Oh I agree, I would never suggest they change the rules. Hockey is a damn fine game as it is. Still that being said that's the biggest problem to me. I've always been genuinely curious how hockey fans watch the game. Do you guys just know all the jersey numbers? I'm a huge NBA fan and I know most of them for the Jazz (my favorite NBA team), but I also just know what the guys look like, and the fact that subs are made less regularly. For hockey fans do you all just know every player on every line, or do you know one or two that relays to you which line is it? When the lines shift is everyone going off the ice, or do sometimes defensemen stay on while the wings/center changes? I honestly don't know. If I could figure that out it would probably make the game a lot more interesting to me, though (and this isn't the fault of hockey) my sports plate is pretty full with basketball and football so I'm not sure I'd even watch enough hockey to get it down. I memorize all the numbers of my favorite team. I don't always see line changes but that doesn't bug me too much. My local announcers are quick to point it out. I also tend to memorize the numbers of all the star players in the league or most of them against Divisional opponents. In the playoffs I tend to quickly remember the numbers after the first game. Plus it's easier in the playoffs because of Playoff beards. Like you can tell if it's Crosby if he has a patchy 15 year old kid beard or if it's Shea Weber because of his epic Grizzly Adam's beard.
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Post by Orange on Jan 7, 2013 14:43:09 GMT -5
Not going into lockout every few years would help TREMENDOUSLY. No offense to you, but I think that goes without saying. A lot of loyal fans won't be coming back at all after this lockout. What in your opinion would it take to get you to watch more regularly though? Maybe not as a die hard, but as casual fan, at least. No offense taken, but I still think that, obvious as it may be, it's a big problem holding the sport back as a whole. If you're looking to get into hockey regularly, you'll always have that slight feeling of doubt that they're just going to go into lockout again and it'll all be for naught. I've always been an on-again off-again hockey fan, especially considering the success the Avs had in the early 2000's. However, with this most recent lockout I don't think I'll be watching again. Why put in the effort when, chances are they'll just go into lockout again in a few years? Hockey was just gaining ground and becoming HUGE, in my opinion. I mean, not NFL huge, but considerably large - and then just like that they decided it was time for another lockout. And all of a sudden it's back to square one, they can't keep doing that and expect people to put in the time and money to support the product. And if even hardcore fans are questioning their loyalty to the sport - they don't have a chance in hell in getting the casual market, or even a chance to get non-watchers to give it a shot. Hockey's screwed.
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triplethreatmark
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Post by triplethreatmark on Jan 7, 2013 14:57:31 GMT -5
No offense to you, but I think that goes without saying. A lot of loyal fans won't be coming back at all after this lockout. What in your opinion would it take to get you to watch more regularly though? Maybe not as a die hard, but as casual fan, at least. No offense taken, but I still think that, obvious as it may be, it's a big problem holding the sport back as a whole. If you're looking to get into hockey regularly, you'll always have that slight feeling of doubt that they're just going to go into lockout again and it'll all be for naught. I've always been an on-again off-again hockey fan, especially considering the success the Avs had in the early 2000's. However, with this most recent lockout I don't think I'll be watching again. Why put in the effort when, chances are they'll just go into lockout again in a few years? Hockey was just gaining ground and becoming HUGE, in my opinion. I mean, not NFL huge, but considerably large - and then just like that they decided it was time for another lockout. And all of a sudden it's back to square one, they can't keep doing that and expect people to put in the time and money to support the product. And if even hardcore fans are questioning their loyalty to the sport - they don't have a chance in hell in getting the casual market, or even a chance to get non-watchers to give it a shot. Hockey's screwed. I would agree with you completely if the league had decided to cancel the entire season, but even with this reduced season, it seems a fair number of people are willing to come back. However, obviously a lot of people are NOT going to come back and the league deserves it. However, I would not say hockey is screwed.
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