The Doctor
Dennis Stamp
New teeth. That's weird.
Posts: 4,952
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Post by The Doctor on Jan 9, 2013 9:07:47 GMT -5
It does make me wonder what all the people who hate catchphrases and personalities and 'entertainment' actually originally liked about WWF/E in the first place. If you don't like all of that and agree with CM Punk's character then why would you be attracted to WWE? I'll answer this from my own perspective. Today's promos and pandering seem scripted and phony. It is all written in one terrible hive-mind voice (the writers write jokes in only one universal style and apply it to everyone), and there is no true structure to the product. They just wrestle aimlessly for no real reason. People can get title shots just by calling out people. Pre-cued music and pyro in spontaneous situations. Invisible camera. It all destroys the suspension of disbelief needed that always made the sport successful. It is NOT a variety show, and should not be. A writer's mindset should be: "How do we make this wrestling more entertaining?"; not "how can we get a bit of wrestling into this entertainment?" Characters need to be organic and at least somewhat morally consistent. John Cena as a character has Bi-Polar disorder. He makes no sense, hoots and hollers over things that don't matter, and smiles at things that should make him rightfully angry or upset. He changes on a whim, and has no discernible set characteristics. WWE writes him to suit THEIR direction. They don't write a situation, and say "Ok, how does a John Cena deal with this?" Remember the look on Hogan's face when he saw Honky and the Harts beating down Macho in 1987 when Liz dragged him from the back? That's wrestling. A big cartoon hero, who fights for what's right (fights for your life, huh!). Hogan had character flaws, sure. Like an inability to see betrayal coming, and a strange tendency to overreact to being eliminated from a battle royal. But you knew who he was. Old WWF vs today's WWE, is like the difference's pointed out in Plinkett's Star Wars trilogy reviews. Love them or hate them, for twenty plus years, you knew who characters were, and what they stood for. You knew how they'd react, and you felt a genuine sense of caring or dislike for them. There is no such connect in today's WWE. It's manufactured, micromanaged and sanitized for soulless mass production. Even the announcers don't call matches in lieu of telling "stories". It's contrived bulls***, with brief flashes of brilliance that occasionally remind you what was once great. I want organic characters back. People who stood for something, good or bad and reacted in ways, while still campy and cartoony, that was at least somewhat relatable. Hulk Hogan didn't dump s*** on Andre for beating him for the belt. Macho Man Savage and Bret Hart didn't come out and do bad stereotype Sheamus-style comedy to sell rivalries. Austin didn't smile when Vince screwed him over. He was angry every time, and when he destroyed something of Vince's, Vince deserved it. Today's WWE has no such consistency. The Heels are sympathetic Wile E. Coyote's who try real hard and fail, and faces are mary-sue poochie-booked Road Runners. It's irritating. I like catch-phrases and promos and (organic) comedy like one-off insults (like Austin's "I can whip your ass backwards." I don't want legends dancing, and guys who are just good hands mocked for being boring. These are my issues. I'd argue the problem now lays in how people perceive wrestlers and their characters rather than how they're booked. There is nothing someone like Punk could do to elicit 100% boos in the same way there is nothing John Cena can do to elicit 100% cheers. In my opinion John Cena is booked as a likeable and believable face. I think so and so do thousands of others who like him. A lot of those thousands of others are, indeed, children. Just as we were when we loved Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior or maybe The Rock and Austin. Children whose opinions on Wrestling are just as valid as ours... more so in fact because Wrestling(WWE style) is for kids. Just how Star Wars is for example. Not to say adults can't watch, but if they do maybe they could just ease up a second! Maybe they could realise that when you watch something aimed at children you process it through vastly different critical processes. The very concept of Wrestling as something mature is, to me, as daft and out of place as a gritty retelling of The Muppets. The Attitude Era itself sums it up. Perhaps the single least mature TV in the history of the medium. Fantastic entertainment but not mature. But people loved it... mostly because a lot of those people who watched it were kids. I know I was and I know a lot of people here must have been. Kids anywhere between the age of 10-15. But kids none the less. The difference isn't the booking so much as the fact that nowadays there is a higher percentage of adults in the crowd. Adults who watched when they were kids and wonder why something aimed, primarily, at children hasn't adapted to them. Maybe, just maybe WWE hasn't adapted to them because it doesn't need to. It doesn't need to because there are an ever ready army of kids(like we once were) ready to cheer people like Sheamus and Cena and Daniel Bryan and Kane. Maybe some people need to stand back and realise that WWE is, was and ever will be something primarily for the kids. And guess why they are more important than most adults? Because they(or their parents) PAY for the product. They don't stream PPVs. They don't watch Raw on YouTube. They don't find bootleg websites to buy their merchandise. They sit down, they enjoy it and they pay for it. And that isn't wrong just because CM Punk's character says it is. That's perfectly right because that's how every Wrestling company throughout history has operated. Furthermore, the fact is that for as long as any of us have been watching wrestling there have been scripted and entirely inorganic catchphrases and gimmicks. That is by no means a new addition to current WWE. For every little organic one liner you can recite there are 10 more scripted catchphrases that caught the imagination. As I said before if that's not something you like about WWE then why did you ever? The answer might just be because you're not a kid any more. edit: any "you's" used are meant generally. Don't want to come across needlessly aggressive!
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kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants her Shot
Who is Tiger Maskooo?
Posts: 15,870
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Post by kidglov3s on Jan 9, 2013 12:19:24 GMT -5
knowing nods and winks to the audience This has to be the most grating and worst thing about modern wrestling, and probably why I'm not into guys like Dolph and Miz who saturate their work with that s***. When people who I do like engage in it, such as babyface CM Punk, it's the worst.
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Push R Truth
Patti Mayonnaise
Unique and Special Snowflake, and a pants-less heathen.
Perpetually Constipated
Posts: 39,329
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Post by Push R Truth on Jan 9, 2013 12:29:47 GMT -5
rambling isn't good
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Post by Savage Gambino on Jan 9, 2013 12:41:27 GMT -5
There's a glass ceiling in this company! People like me (longest reigning WWE Champion in modern history) are being held down, man! Punk fans at home: it's so true, man. It's so true! ![:'(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cry.png) ;D I continue to find the concept of a five time heavyweight champion and two time MITB winner, who debuted as the crown jewel of ECW, saying he was "held down" to be completely absurd, albeit hilarious.
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kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants her Shot
Who is Tiger Maskooo?
Posts: 15,870
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Post by kidglov3s on Jan 9, 2013 13:14:01 GMT -5
There's a glass ceiling in this company! People like me (longest reigning WWE Champion in modern history) are being held down, man! Punk fans at home: it's so true, man. It's so true! ![:'(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cry.png) ;D I continue to find the concept of a five time heavyweight champion and two time MITB winner, who debuted as the crown jewel of ECW, saying he was "held down" to be completely absurd, albeit hilarious. He's also the guy who lost like a billion times to John Morrison before he won the ECW title, the guy who lost his first WHC in a backstage segment, and the guy who didn't have a win on PPV for over a year from 2010-2011. He's had his lumps.
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Arrow
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,122
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Post by Arrow on Jan 9, 2013 13:18:50 GMT -5
So has everybody else, even most of the so-called "golden boys".
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kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants her Shot
Who is Tiger Maskooo?
Posts: 15,870
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Post by kidglov3s on Jan 9, 2013 13:24:17 GMT -5
So has everybody else, even most of the so-called "golden boys". I never said they didn't. I think that Punk's underdog schtick is kinda goofy too but it's not like there's nothing to it. Remember the doghouse with nuclear heatz?
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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 9, 2013 15:47:18 GMT -5
People keep bringing up kayfabe accomplishments (MITB, whatever belts, etc.) to counteract his promos, as if they have much to do with what Punk's usually talking about.
These promos seem to be more about the reality that, for example, Punk is the company's champion, yet he almost never main events shows. No, that's John Cena's job, even when Cena isn't champion.
They're more about guys like Daniel Bryan being great wrestlers and talents, yet their big moments include things like losing titles in 10 seconds at Wrestlemania.
Basically, it isn't about what belts you won or whatever, it's about how high you're capable of ascending if you don't do things the "WWE way".
Now, IN kayfabe, people can point to those things Punk had going for him and say "he's just a heel who's justifying himself, even though he's wrong", and there's nothing wrong with thinking that. He IS the heel, after all, and his character is that of a man who climbed the ladder his own way, then immediately set it on fire behind him so that nobody else could climb it. So even when he brings up Daniel Bryan he's not doing it out of the goodness of his heart, because his character doesn't honestly give a damn about Daniel Bryan. It's to rile people up, and to play the "Cult of Personality" with people who want to believe in what he's saying.
Lots of wrestlers have worn midcard titles and what have you, but were never allowed to rise very highly because of the whims of WWE management, and Punk's working that into his promo.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2013 3:27:37 GMT -5
That promo was incredible, I honestly can't name a better one off the top of my head. Punk absolutely MURDERED it, it made me a bigger fan of him than ever and made me want to see Punk/Rock so, so badly.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jan 14, 2013 3:34:20 GMT -5
I continue to find the concept of a five time heavyweight champion and two time MITB winner, who debuted as the crown jewel of ECW, saying he was "held down" to be completely absurd, albeit hilarious. He's also the guy who lost like a billion times to John Morrison before he won the ECW title, the guy who lost his first WHC in a backstage segment, and the guy who didn't have a win on PPV for over a year from 2010-2011. He's had his lumps. WWE went out of their way to protect Punk by having himh lose the WHC by a fluke. It served to get the belt off of Punk without making him look weak. If they didn't think highly of Punk, they would've had him jobbed out to one of the "real stars" to get the belt "back where it belongs". It probably would've hurt him more to have him pinned cleanly for the belt.
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Post by g1megatronfan on Jan 14, 2013 6:39:15 GMT -5
I tried to watch it this weekend on youtube...and quit about half way into it. To me this a great example of why I think CM Punk sucks. He does nothing but spew some of the most lame insults at the crowd I've ever heard. Then he goes into his routine where he tries to "expose" wrestling sounding like he got his script from an internet web site.
For a guy who obviously takes him job a little too seriously judging from his outside interviews etc...he sure likes to point out all the fake things about wrestling. According to his character...he's the best in the world at being a fake.
Why people constantly praise this guy's speeches is beyond me. He sounds like some dork who reads a bunch of internet web sites and just recycles stuff they say. That's not impressive at all to me.
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mattyy
Unicron
holy moly its the big homie
Posts: 3,117
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Post by mattyy on Jan 14, 2013 6:44:07 GMT -5
I tried to watch it this weekend on youtube...and quit about half way into it. To me this a great example of why I think CM Punk sucks. He does nothing but spew some of the most lame insults at the crowd I've ever heard. Then he goes into his routine where he tries to "expose" wrestling sounding like he got his script from an internet web site. For a guy who obviously takes him job a little too seriously judging from his outside interviews etc...he sure likes to point out all the fake things about wrestling. According to his character...he's the best in the world at being a fake. Why people constantly praise this guy's speeches is beyond me. He sounds like some dork who reads a bunch of internet web sites and just recycles stuff they say. That's not impressive at all to me. it was sure as shit better than "cookie puss".
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Jan 14, 2013 6:46:00 GMT -5
People keep bringing up kayfabe accomplishments (MITB, whatever belts, etc.) to counteract his promos, as if they have much to do with what Punk's usually talking about. These promos seem to be more about the reality that, for example, Punk is the company's champion, yet he almost never main events shows. No, that's John Cena's job, even when Cena isn't champion. They're more about guys like Daniel Bryan being great wrestlers and talents, yet their big moments include things like losing titles in 10 seconds at Wrestlemania. Basically, it isn't about what belts you won or whatever, it's about how high you're capable of ascending if you don't do things the "WWE way". Now, IN kayfabe, people can point to those things Punk had going for him and say "he's just a heel who's justifying himself, even though he's wrong", and there's nothing wrong with thinking that. He IS the heel, after all, and his character is that of a man who climbed the ladder his own way, then immediately set it on fire behind him so that nobody else could climb it. So even when he brings up Daniel Bryan he's not doing it out of the goodness of his heart, because his character doesn't honestly give a damn about Daniel Bryan. It's to rile people up, and to play the "Cult of Personality" with people who want to believe in what he's saying. Lots of wrestlers have worn midcard titles and what have you, but were never allowed to rise very highly because of the whims of WWE management, and Punk's working that into his promo. Pretty much, and it's something Punk actually mentioned all the way back when this whole thing started. "I've grabbed so many of Vincent K. McMahon's imaginary brass rings that it's finally dawned on me that they are just that, completely imaginary..."
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