CMWaters
Ozymandius
Rolled a Seven, Beat the Ads.
Bald and busy
Posts: 63,281
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Post by CMWaters on Apr 20, 2013 18:50:50 GMT -5
The year is 1992.
The writers of the Superman books are faced with a challenge: their planned wedding of Clark "Superman" Kent and Lois Lane has been put on hold due to the series "Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman" wanting to do the marriage at least at the same time as the comic.
Faced with the original plan being scrapped, a new story would be made. A story where Superman would end up in a fight that cost him his life, how the world would react without him, and then his ultimate return.
This was the saga "The Death and Return of Superman". It did change some small things here and there...led to a new Green Lantern, introduced a new Superboy as well as a new hero named Steel...changed Superman's power level for a brief bit, and introduced a threat for a while in Doomsday.
Around the middle of the "Death and Return of Superman" story (around when Supes was dead and before the 4 "replacements" appeared), in the Batman books a new story was being created as well. A powerful yet intelligent villain makes plans to take Gotham by storm, and he ends up doing so by breaking Batman's back. What follows is character introspection, as well s a temporary rise of a new Batman.
This was "Batman: Knightfall", and the results of that story did lead to a few small changes in the Batman mythos (which, I admit, I'm not as sure of as I'm not a regular comic reader).
Now that we got that history out of the way: what story overall do you think was the better one?
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Legion
Fry's dog Seymour
Amy Pond's #1 fan
Hail Hydra!
Posts: 23,402
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Post by Legion on Apr 20, 2013 19:03:48 GMT -5
Batman: Knightfall gave us a cool new character in Bane, but in the end, it's memorable for that back break, which healed and didnt really do or change anything.
Death/Return is one of the few Superman stories I really like. I loved the 4 new Superman, I loved Cyborg screwing over Coast City that led to Zero Hour and Parallax (I didnt have the history with Hal, so for me, that was a great twist and something so new and cool - the fallen hero), I love Superboy and how he grew as a character, Doomsday is was a great threat and visually simple, but impressive. I also liked how he started off all covered and was slowly revealed.
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Goldenbane
Hank Scorpio
THE G.D. Goldenbane
Posts: 7,331
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Post by Goldenbane on Apr 20, 2013 19:39:58 GMT -5
Batman: Knightfall gave us a cool new character in Bane, but in the end, it's memorable for that back break, which healed and didnt really do or change anything. Death/Return is one of the few Superman stories I really like. I loved the 4 new Superman, I loved Cyborg screwing over Coast City that led to Zero Hour and Parallax (I didnt have the history with Hal, so for me, that was a great twist and something so new and cool - the fallen hero), I love Superboy and how he grew as a character, Doomsday is was a great threat and visually simple, but impressive. I also liked how he started off all covered and was slowly revealed. Have to agree with this, 100%. With all due respect, I saw a lot more lasting impact from Death and Return of Superman, than I did from Knightfall.
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Post by Citizen Grimm on Apr 20, 2013 20:37:22 GMT -5
Personally, I prefer Knightfall but I'm admittedly biased. Bane is one of my all-time favorite villains (and characters in general) so I loved the story.
Death of Superman is probably better, especially the initial Superman/Doomsday fight, but I do feel that it led to a lot of goofy stuff as well.
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Post by Red Impact on Apr 20, 2013 20:53:19 GMT -5
The Superman-Doomsday fight was one of the most incredible series of images in a mainstream series and really dwarfed the Batman-Bane fight, but I think the aftermath of it really undermined the sacrifice. I mean, yeah, we knew that Superman wasn't going to stay dead, but it really felt like a cop out the way it was handled. Meanwhile Jean-Paul Valley was an amazing character and kept Nightfall great, even if his costume was awful.
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Post by Hurbster on Apr 20, 2013 21:02:41 GMT -5
Well, the initial Batman-Bane fight was never going to be a classic as Batman was at a physical and mental low.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Apr 20, 2013 21:24:47 GMT -5
Knightfall wasn't a bad story at all, but Death/Return not only felt more epic for obvious reasons, it had more emotional and significant lasting impact. Plus Henshaw/CyberSupes was awesome.
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Dat Dude
Dennis Stamp
Wait, what?
Posts: 4,785
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Post by Dat Dude on Apr 20, 2013 21:34:52 GMT -5
Anything that involves Lady Shiva is a automatic win for me.
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Post by Free Hat on Apr 20, 2013 21:36:54 GMT -5
The first half of Knightfall is great, with Batman driving himself to exhaustion in his efforts to apprehend the inmates of Arkham and Blackgate. The problem is that I really cannot remember anything that happens after Bane breaks his back. Like I know Jean-Paul goes crazy and Bruce has to reclaim the mantle, but the rest of the story is a complete blank for me. On the other hand, most of the really interesting stuff in Death and Return happens after Superman dies.
As far as the villains go, they've both always seemed like gimmick characters to me. I mean yeah, Bane's got a little more going for him than Doomsday, but it's always seemed like he was created specifically for the purpose of defeating Batman and nothing else. Once he served that purpose there was nowhere else to go with him, and so he's just kinda floundered for 20 years.
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mattperiolat
King Koopa
Thank you, Brodie... for everything.
Posts: 11,447
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Post by mattperiolat on Apr 20, 2013 22:38:40 GMT -5
I'd call it a wash to be honest. Both were the story arcs that got me into both comics, so I appreciate them both. Both added new characters and new directions for cre characters. Honestly, it's even.
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Magnus the Magnificent
King Koopa
didn't want one.
I could write a book about what you don't know!
Posts: 12,631
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Post by Magnus the Magnificent on Apr 21, 2013 14:48:59 GMT -5
Superman>Batman
Always and forever.
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Apr 21, 2013 15:20:18 GMT -5
Both are a wash for me since they are essentially the same story, at least in basic plot structure. Both have the hero getting taken out by a powerful new foe and both are replaced for a period of time by new fill ins and then they come back and finish things.
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dav
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,064
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Post by dav on Apr 21, 2013 15:20:30 GMT -5
Hard to say either way to be honest. Both were really well done stories that introduced some great new aspects to the respective franchises. Superman's return was something of a cop out though while the middle segment of the Knightfall storyline didn't quite live up to what went before and what followed straight after.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Apr 21, 2013 15:22:33 GMT -5
Death/Return of Superman to me. the original story was fantastic (even if Doomsday was more a plot device than a character), the "World Without Superman" arc showed just what made him so special, and Reign of the Supermen introduced a bunch of great new characters and Eradicator. plus it indirectly lead to Hal Jordan going bonkers, becoming Parallax, dying and introducing us to Kyle Rayner.
Knightfall, on the other hand, while it did introduce Bane, just doesn't have the lasting legacy that Death/Return of Superman did. I mean Azrael was mostly meant to be a middle finger to people who wanted Punisher-as-Batman, and in that it worked, but beyond that there's not much to it.
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Apr 21, 2013 15:35:52 GMT -5
Death/Return of Superman to me. the original story was fantastic (even if Doomsday was more a plot device than a character), the "World Without Superman" arc showed just what made him so special, and Reign of the Supermen introduced a bunch of great new characters and Eradicator. plus it indirectly lead to Hal Jordan going bonkers, becoming Parallax, dying and introducing us to Kyle Rayner. Knightfall, on the other hand, while it did introduce Bane, just doesn't have the lasting legacy that Death/Return of Superman did. I mean Azrael was mostly meant to be a middle finger to people who wanted Punisher-as-Batman, and in that it worked, but beyond that there's not much to it. The thing is the lasting legacy of a story doesn't mean the story itself was actually good. If anything I'd argue all the things to happen as a result of the Death and Return of Superman was actually better than the Death and Return of Superman itself was. The actual story itself was just alright(really both stories we are comparing were just alright). Its legacy stories, though? f***ing amazing.
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Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
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Fed. Up.
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Apr 21, 2013 15:49:52 GMT -5
I prefer "Knightfall". Bane and Doomsday were both gimmick characters designed and introduced as a tool to get to the end result. Bane however was so well crafted by Chuck Dixon that he became an amazing character. Doomsday has NOTHING to his credit outside of that one story arc. While "Knightfall" is still Bane's crowning achievement, he's a character who's stood the test of time and has been in many other well-received story arcs and series'. Because of Bane's compelling characterization, "Knightfall" is an amazing read.
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wakko
Samurai Cop
Knows This
BAAAGH!!!!
Posts: 2,212
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Post by wakko on Apr 21, 2013 16:15:29 GMT -5
I cant speak on either comis, but I own and have read the novel done on Batman: Knightfall. It was written into novel form by the guy who did the comic, or so the book says. And I found the book really enjoyable.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2013 18:34:05 GMT -5
DEATH/RETURN for me. The buildup was kinda scary, the Death Of was just flat out historic, the fallout was rightfully mournful, and the 4 Superman were decent on their own. And after a rereading of the major RETURN OF plot points, I ended up loving RETURN much more now than I did at the time (personally, I somehow glossed right over the fact that Superman was revived and showed up a few times before his big official return).
KNIGHTFALL was good initially - loved Bane the near-invincible villain, loved his strategy to wear Batman down by throwing his worst enemies at him & then break him at his lowest physical point. But the aftermath arcs went on rather long; and ultimately Azrael was, really, not a good character choice to pick up the Bat-reigns, especially given how the Bat-family has worked over the years.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2013 18:42:33 GMT -5
Death of Superman was the bigger moment, Knight fall was the better story. My favorite thing from both series, however, were these guys: I thought it was brilliant that Bane had a gang that spoofed pulp hero Doc Savage's Fabulous Five (ok, they didn't have two members but then Doc's friends were mainly the three) group of sidekicks.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2013 19:07:20 GMT -5
Death of Superman was the bigger moment, Knight fall was the better story. My favorite thing from both series, however, were these guys: I thought it was brilliant that Bane had a gang that spoofed pulp hero Doc Savage's Fabulous Five (ok, they didn't have two members but then Doc's friends were mainly the three) group of sidekicks. I remember reading about those Doc Savage sidekicks once and actually (fleetingly) thinking of Bane's gang. Seeing this confirmed startles me. (In a good way...) Whatever happened to those guys anyway? Did they ever pop up in the post-Bane Knightquest/search/tumble/etc books? Or even beyond that?
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