nisi
Vegeta
Da Bears
Posts: 9,868
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Post by nisi on Dec 28, 2006 1:10:03 GMT -5
On another wrestling site people were predicting the future of local indy wrestling for 2007, and one guy made the comparison that many of them were "wrestling's equivalent of 'beer league' softball," that they were "grown men that want to emulate the men they see on TV. They are not out to be great wrestlers nor do they aspire to do anything better. As long as they can con a few of their good friends and family to come out and watch them put out a garbage product for a few hours a month, they stay happy. Luckily, most of the men that throw these shows together are not very wealthy. Eventually, lack of ticket sales forces them to stop doing shows."
I have to say I totally agree with the facts of this assessment. Especially in states like mine where pro wrestling is no longer regulated, it's easy to start a small local indy fed just for fun, and they run until expenses creep up and then go out of business. The ones that just try to break even tend to last the longest. If you own your own ring and have a place to run shows, your fed can last forever.
But for me these kinds of feds can be really fun. Most of the fans probably are the families and friends of the wrestlers, but they aren't expecting workrate and ambition. Lots of people come precisely because the wrestling is a cheesy throwback in time.
I got the impression some serious indy wrestlers and promoters worry that beer league feds tarnish the image of indy wrestling somehow. But nobody goes to a beer league fed expecting ROH or a "leading" indy show. Your local carnival will never be Disneyland, but it can still be fun--cheesy, old-fashioned, goofy fun.
What do you guys think? Is there a "beer league" fed in your area that makes you ashamed to be a wrestling fan?
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Post by imnotbooked on Dec 28, 2006 1:14:54 GMT -5
Buffalo,NY is filled with 'em. By far the worst is called OSPW (Old School Pro Wrestling). Now I can watch almost anything related to wrestling. I can watch Ken't Jones ramble on for 15 minutes about anything, I can watch Bulldog's Bizarre promo 20 times in a row, I can even watch a huging Viscera match, but for the life of me, I cannot stand to watch more than 20 seconds of their "TV Show". It is by far the most poorly filmed wrestling show. For god sakes, I have tapes of Antonino Rocco from the 50's that are better quality. When I flip it on. I literally want to take a fork to my eyes, rip them out of my head, put a little Arby's Sauce on them and eat 'em up. It is that bad. Check out thier website: www.ospw.net/index1.htmlIt looks like it is straight out of 1999.
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Post by heyguesswhatidid on Dec 28, 2006 1:14:56 GMT -5
I like them, bad wrestling and promos can be fun. There aren't many of those in NYC though, so I'm forced to see good indies which isn't a bad thing at all
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Post by imnotbooked on Dec 28, 2006 1:19:27 GMT -5
I like them, bad wrestling and promos can be fun. There aren't many of those in NYC though, so I'm forced to see good indies which isn't a bad thing at all Consider yourself very lucky. This goes so beyond bad that even I can't watch it. I see that your from Brooklyn: Did you ever go to any of the indy shows around the Bensohurst and Bay Ridge Area in the 90's? There were some pretty big names at some of them. And if you live in Brooklyn, You will definately know the BODYGUARD FOR HIRE. Jesus christ did he know how to stink up a ring!!
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Post by American Nightmare on Dec 28, 2006 2:06:13 GMT -5
unfortunately, i kinda work a beer league, but we do student shows, and everybody is a student there so it really isnt.
and i remember going to one of those Bay Ridge shows in Brooklyn and being confused as hell as to what i was watching.
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Post by imnotbooked on Dec 28, 2006 2:09:16 GMT -5
unfortunately, i kinda work a beer league, but we do student shows, and everybody is a student there so it really isnt. and i remember going to one of those Bay Ridge shows in Brooklyn and being confused as hell as to what i was watching. Yeah, you could go from seeing a very young, very green Little Guido to seing washed up never-beens like Chris Michaels. But i got to give it to whoever the promoter was, he must of paid some decent money, because I remember seeing Cactus Jack, Matt Borne as Doink, Bossman vs. Nailz, Tony Atlas, Greg Valentine, Lawler, Bam Bam Biggelow, Sensational Sherri, and all of these guys were in front of a crowd of no more than like 400 people.
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Joekishi
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,490
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Post by Joekishi on Dec 28, 2006 2:09:25 GMT -5
most of those guys look like the mulkeys or probably are the mulkeys
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2006 4:07:37 GMT -5
www.monsterprowrestling.com/That's the local fed in my town, I've never been there live but they have a show on our access channel. There's some guys you see and they look cool and you wonder what they'd look like in a bigger scene and then there's some guys(either really skinny or not in great shape) who you know there's a reason why they're indy. For a local indy promotion I think they're solid and I agree that there are a lot of feds that do fit that description, and I always wonder how some gather a crowd on a consistent basis, but like heyguesswhatidid, I kind of have an appreciation for the terrible sometimes.
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Post by heffer111 on Dec 28, 2006 4:32:43 GMT -5
www.monsterprowrestling.com/That's the local fed in my town, I've never been there live but they have a show on our access channel. There's some guys you see and they look cool and you wonder what they'd look like in a bigger scene and then there's some guys(either really skinny or not in great shape) who you know there's a reason why they're indy. For a local indy promotion I think they're solid and I agree that there are a lot of feds that do fit that description, and I always wonder how some gather a crowd on a consistent basis, but like heyguesswhatidid, I kind of have an appreciation for the terrible sometimes. www.monsterprowrestling.com/assets/images/Cruz%20Large_03.JPGman.... he looks like a wrestler thats mainstream... but i can't put my finger on it..
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vinniemac
Don Corleone
No Chance In Hell
Posts: 1,967
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Post by vinniemac on Dec 28, 2006 8:48:05 GMT -5
No. They're not bad. The strong workers/promotions will survive, move on up to the larger indies, then - if lucky - the mainstream in Mexico, Japan or even the U. S. A.
Everybody has to start somewhere. It's better to work in front of virtually nobody and improve then to ahve no-talent hacks like Chris Masters, MVP, Oleg Prudius, etc. forced upon you by the major promotion in the country, simply because they have a hard on for roid freaks.
Now, if these low-man-on-the-totem-pole indies actually focused on decent booking and trying ot make their cut-rate television at least look competently lit, shot and edited together - then it'd help for their cause.
An indy show of 400 fans is generally a GOOD draw. I remember goign to early NWA-Eastern (read: ECW) shows where there would be about 250 people abck in 1993 - and they had really good regional television.
Some feds, like Jersey All-Pro, went from being done virtually from scratch (and looking like crap and loosely thrown together) to one of the best regional feds going: their shows rock, they have the pulsebeat of the north eastern up-and-comers in check and showcase 'em with class, have good booking, slickly produced "internet" programs, slick DVDs, great promotion and marketing, and manage to throw in some well-versed vets to help draw the fans and good work ethic from the younger guns.
If only Fat Frank & Ray Sager booked WWE without McInterference, but with McProduction value - you'd have the hottest wrestling company in the states.
Then there's the "beer league" sports factor. If a bunch of people want to compete for fun and no glory in really lame, boring, craptacular things like chess, football, softball, etc. - why not put on a fed?
Whichever site you mentioned (but failed to link to) spent way too much time talking about this, and wishing the death on ANY indy group is only bad for the art form, the business and reeks of knee-jerk, stupid missives by guys that probably make the Green Lantern Fan seem like he's debonaire.
Finally, the litmus test of what counts (as far as I'm concerned) is Terry Funk: the guy has worked crowds of 50 to crowds of 5, 000 or more - and not once did it half-ass it. That's what it's all about for workers - it's in YOUR BLOOD.
Otherwise you're a Hulk Hogan or Kevin Nash or some other jabroni who insults the art and only draws in lowest-common-denominator fans for the short term.
If that ain't good enough for ya, then stick to the over-produced, pablum pap on Monday, Tuesday and Friday Nights that has big men, big (boob'd) women, slick production but sub-backyard wrestling-on-a-lazy-day booking and neopotism that borders on incestuous narcissism.
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nisi
Vegeta
Da Bears
Posts: 9,868
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Post by nisi on Dec 29, 2006 0:38:44 GMT -5
unfortunately, i kinda work a beer league Me too, at least a few times a year--this was kind of my agenda behind asking the question. We would barely qualify as a beer league, but it's a lot of fun. There's some guys you see and they look cool and you wonder what they'd look like in a bigger scene and then there's some guys(either really skinny or not in great shape) who you know there's a reason why they're indy. I can see this as a legitmate criticism of a lot of small feds. A series of 140 lb kids followed by 320 lb tubbos, all wearing karate pants and camoflage fatigues, do not make for an interesting roster. Whichever site you mentioned (but failed to link to) spent way too much time talking about this Yeah, that was on purpose--even though it's a public board I didn't want to seem like I was provoking a "board war." Plus my basic response to him is, "Guilty as charged." These beer leaguers ARE guys who wrestle just for fun, the (small) crowd is mostly their friends, etc. But people know what they're getting when they go, and no one is twisting their arm to be there, unless they're booked. ;D
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Post by Andrew is Good on Dec 29, 2006 1:22:21 GMT -5
Everybody has to start somewhere. It's better to work in front of virtually nobody and improve then to ahve no-talent hacks like Chris Masters, MVP, Oleg Prudius, etc. forced upon you by the major promotion in the country, simply because they have a hard on for roid freaks. If I could, I want to defend MVP. Now while MVP hasn't been wrestling for a good long time, he has been in some well known indies. He did a job on TNA Impact back in 2004, appeared in Ring of Honor, and was a promonent member of FIP. I have a match on my computer which is pretty good between MVP and CM Punk from Full Impact Pro. So MVP isn't some random guy they found off the street who they thought looked good. They picked him up because he's very talented, and he is. I think it would be good fun. When you think about it, the main point of wrestling is to con people out of their money, that's what every wrestling promotion does. And when guys are out there just having fun, it's ok. If they're trained of course, and they're not starting to train guys after 6 months of training and giving wrestlers bad habits. They usually won't succeed. It's usually the guys who have at least some wrestling knowledge and bring in some good wrestlers that will bring in people. Drawing people into an arena is an art, and guys who don't know much about it won't draw who they need to draw anyway.
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Post by heyguesswhatidid on Dec 29, 2006 1:34:10 GMT -5
Sadly I think the show's you're describing in Brooklyn are before my time, but I vaguely remember going to maybe 1, but it may have been a regular indy when I was really small.
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Bhester
Dennis Stamp
DAMN!
Posts: 4,137
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Post by Bhester on Dec 29, 2006 1:42:00 GMT -5
It's better to work in front of virtually nobody and improve then to ahve no-talent hacks like Chris Masters, MVP, Oleg Prudius, etc. MVP worked his way up through the indies. I know for a fact he did some work in FIP. Nice try though.
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Post by Cyno on Dec 29, 2006 2:22:58 GMT -5
We have ROH, NWA Shockwave, and JAPW putting on most of the indy shows round these parts, among others, so the beer league feds really have a tough time competing.
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Post by sdoyle7798 on Dec 29, 2006 4:09:47 GMT -5
Anyone from St. Louis, would the guys that wrestle at the South Broadway Athletic Club be in a "beer league?" I ask because it seems they have been running for years at the same place, though I don't know if they own the ring.
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vinniemac
Don Corleone
No Chance In Hell
Posts: 1,967
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Post by vinniemac on Dec 29, 2006 7:31:09 GMT -5
It's better to work in front of virtually nobody and improve then to ahve no-talent hacks like Chris Masters, MVP, Oleg Prudius, etc. MVP worked his way up through the indies. I know for a fact he did some work in FIP. Nice try though. Waht does that have to do with the fact he's still green? If anything, it proves my point: work off your rust on indies and become a star there first, based on your hard work - than to have WWE pick you up and force someone on you like a date rapist who's happy in the pants. Nice try, though.
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nisi
Vegeta
Da Bears
Posts: 9,868
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Post by nisi on Dec 29, 2006 22:47:09 GMT -5
Anyone from St. Louis, would the guys that wrestle at the South Broadway Athletic Club be in a "beer league?" I ask because it seems they have been running for years at the same place, though I don't know if they own the ring. I think you mean MMWA-SICW, and I would definitely not consider them a beer league--they are one of the bigger indies there. Randy Orton actually got his start there.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2006 23:43:59 GMT -5
Our local indy is called "New Championship Wrestling" out of Paris, Illinois and by all means its usually horrible but some of the younger students like my cousin Jorden Vandal and Torch are becoming pretty decent. Also the champion Tommy Calloway has always shown promise but its obvious hes stuck where hes at.
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Bhester
Dennis Stamp
DAMN!
Posts: 4,137
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Post by Bhester on Dec 29, 2006 23:49:27 GMT -5
MVP worked his way up through the indies. I know for a fact he did some work in FIP. Nice try though. Waht does that have to do with the fact he's still green? If anything, it proves my point: work off your rust on indies and become a star there first, based on your hard work - than to have WWE pick you up and force someone on you like a date rapist who's happy in the pants. Nice try, though.I've been impressed with what I've seen from him in the ring. Doesn't look green to me.
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