RedDevil
Don Corleone
Sigs/Avatars cannot exceed 1MB
Posts: 1,692
|
Post by RedDevil on Sept 5, 2013 17:26:55 GMT -5
The problem with Bret vs. Vince was all down to the booking - both had obvious limitations and you needed other guys involved to make up for that, but there's no real excuse for two guys that are such celebrated storytellers to have not realised how bad the match would come off as it was being laid-out.
I liked that it was changed into a lumberjack match - that was a solid move, but the Hart family were Vince's pick? That instantly made Vince the stupidest man at the event, and in terms of tension or storytelling there was nowhere left to go but the inevitable.
I think I wrote a plan somewhere on this forum some time ago on how I'd book it which I'm convinced would've been solid and workable, but the truth is there are several ways to do it that would've been completely acceptable - nobody was expecting something to rival Bret vs. Piper at WrestleMania VIII in terms of quality, but a reasonably short, fun and satisfying match was easily possible. It's a shame that the whole thing was so badly planned. The match was just very poorly booked.
But I agree that I wouldn't count it on a list of Bret's worst matches - it shouldn't qualify for obvious reasons. I'd guess that a list of his worst matches during his active years would feature quite a lot of WCW matches proportionally, given how little time he actually spent there.
|
|
The OP
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
changed his name
Posts: 15,785 
|
Post by The OP on Sept 5, 2013 18:37:07 GMT -5
It's hard to think of a good example. I'm sure he had matches that sucked, but I can't really think of anything that was remarkably terrible or the sort of thing you'd remember years later how sucky it was.
|
|
|
|
Post by "American Cream" Dusty Loads on Sept 5, 2013 19:00:36 GMT -5
You guys are crazy, that Sasso match had one of the best swerves of all time, Debra Wilson heel turn.
|
|
Sam Punk
Hank Scorpio
Own Nothing, Be Happy
Posts: 6,321
|
Post by Sam Punk on Sept 5, 2013 22:00:39 GMT -5
vs Sting @ Halloween Havoc 1998
Just a horrible match.
|
|
Dean-o
Grimlock
Haha we're having fun Maggle!
Posts: 13,865 
|
Post by Dean-o on Sept 5, 2013 23:40:01 GMT -5
If you can count it, vs Vince at Wrestlemania is just terrible. It would have been a huge "Wrestlemania moment" if Bret had just knocked Vince down and put him in the Sharpshooter, refusing to let go like he did with Lawler, which Vince could have sold with one of his patented, comedic nuclear meltdowns. Instead, it turned into a chairshot fest that ended up being nearly uncomfortable to watch. It was a match that should have lasted less than five minutes that seemed to go on forever. The "match" went so long that Bret needed to sit down and take a breather. That match was probably the main reason I ordered WM that year for. By the time it ended, I wanted Vince to win. |
|
|
|
Post by AJ Smudgico on Sept 6, 2013 10:43:55 GMT -5
Are we including tag matches?
If so then I'll say Hart Foundation vs The Rockers SNME in 1990 (I think)
2 Out Of 3 Falls, and had all the makings for a great match, unfortunately the top rope broke and ruined any chance there was of making it a classic, instead making it a disjointed ploddy affair.
|
|
J is Justice
Patti Mayonnaise
Will now be grateful.
Hi.
Posts: 31,945
Member is Online
|
Post by J is Justice on Sept 6, 2013 18:14:10 GMT -5
Here's how it looks, so far.
1.
2.
3.
4. w/ Jim Neidhart Vs. The Rockers (SNME 1990?)
5. Vs. Sting (Halloween Havoc 1998)
6. Vs. Roddy Piper (Nitro 2-8-99)
7. w/ Hollywood Hogan Vs. Roddy Piper and Randy Savage
8.Team WCW (Diamond Dallas Page, Roddy Piper, and The Warrior) Vs. nWo Hollywood (Hollywood Hogan, Bret Hart, and Stevie Ray) Vs. nWo Wolfpac (Kevin Nash, Sting and Lex Luger) Fall Brawl 1998)
9. Vs. Will Sasso (WCW Nitro)
10. Vs. Bob Backlund (WrestleMania XI)
Still debating whether to add the Vince match.
Just thought of another one: the match he had with Sid at IYH.
|
|
|
|
Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Sept 6, 2013 18:56:59 GMT -5
He had a hardcore match with Terry Funk on Thunder in '99 which was just awful. Bret just let Funk throw him all over the place because he was a heel and even as a semi-mark he looked like he shouldn't be wrestling. When a guy in his 50s is beating the shit out of your world champion and the world champion looks the worse for wear, something is wrong. I think it ended when Nash powerbombed Funk through the stage.
|
|
|
|
Post by Alexander The So-so on Sept 6, 2013 18:59:03 GMT -5
He had a hardcore match with Terry Funk on Thunder in '99 which was just awful. Bret just let Funk throw him all over the place because he was a heel and even as a semi-mark he looked like he shouldn't be wrestling. When a guy in his 50s is beating the shit out of your world champion and the world champion looks the worse for wear, something is wrong. I think it ended when Nash powerbombed Funk through the stage. That match happened after Goldberg mule-kicked him at Starrcade, right? That's the problem right there: the champion was wrestling with a severe, career-ending concussion. I haven't seen the match, but I'd imagine it'd be pretty uncomfortable to watch. |
|
|
|
Post by RedSmile on Sept 6, 2013 19:03:40 GMT -5
He had a hardcore match with Terry Funk on Thunder in '99 which was just awful. Bret just let Funk throw him all over the place because he was a heel and even as a semi-mark he looked like he shouldn't be wrestling. When a guy in his 50s is beating the shit out of your world champion and the world champion looks the worse for wear, something is wrong. I think it ended when Nash powerbombed Funk through the stage. A guy in his 50s whose specialty has been hardcore matches his whole career, versus a guy who is completely out of his element (MARK IT ZERO!!) in hardcore matches? It does makes some sense. |
|
|
|
Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Sept 6, 2013 19:07:17 GMT -5
Funk's speciality was only hardcore matches for a decade and a half or so by that point I thought? Wasn't he a pretty traditional wrestler until the mid 80s?
Also I know Hart had his career-ending concussion at that point, I wasn't trying to assign blame, that's why I said it looked he shouldn't be wrestling. I wasn't saying that kayfabe wise it made no sense, I'm saying that while being aware that wrestling was fake I lost my suspension of disbelief and was just worried for Bret's wellbeing. He really didn't seem to be selling anything - he just seemed like he has in terrible shape, which of course, concussion wise, he was.
|
|
Gummydavidson
Dennis Stamp
Johnny Davidson for Prime Minister!
Posts: 3,933
|
Post by Gummydavidson on Sept 7, 2013 7:29:51 GMT -5
His final WCW match with Kevin Nash although its debatable if you want to add that match to the list because of Bret Harts condition at the time.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2013 7:41:42 GMT -5
You could probably throw in his first Raw match after the heel turn - against Rocky Maivia. While Bret got good heel heat, the match was just secondary. Rocky won by DQ when Bret did the figure-four around the ringpost and wouldn't let go.
|
|
|
|
Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Sept 7, 2013 15:11:40 GMT -5
He had a hardcore match with Terry Funk on Thunder in '99 which was just awful. Bret just let Funk throw him all over the place because he was a heel and even as a semi-mark he looked like he shouldn't be wrestling. When a guy in his 50s is beating the shit out of your world champion and the world champion looks the worse for wear, something is wrong. I think it ended when Nash powerbombed Funk through the stage. That match happened after Goldberg mule-kicked him at Starrcade, right? That's the problem right there: the champion was wrestling with a severe, career-ending concussion. I haven't seen the match, but I'd imagine it'd be pretty uncomfortable to watch. Thank you WWE youtube channel for editing this. The entire match is painful. |
|
|
|
Post by Todd Pettengill on Sept 7, 2013 15:36:12 GMT -5
Shawn Michaels at Wrestlemania 12. If Bret or Shawn were willing to drop their crap for one night and concede a few falls to each other, this match could have been so much better (just look at how good their Survivor Series 97 match was, before the finish). As it stands, it's one of the most over-rated matches in history. Yeah, I've always thought this match was really boring. Very overrated match. I don't know if I'd put it on the top ten worst Bret matches list, but it's certainly #1 on the most Overrated matches of All time List. |
|
J is Justice
Patti Mayonnaise
Will now be grateful.
Hi.
Posts: 31,945
Member is Online
|
Post by J is Justice on Sept 8, 2013 10:51:20 GMT -5
Alright, here are (roughly) the top 10 worst Bret Hart matches ever! (in no order)
1. Vs. Vince McMahon (WrestleMania XXVI)
2. Vs. Kevin Nash (January 10, 2000 - Nitro)
3. Vs. Terry Funk (Thunder 1999)
4. w/ Jim Neidhart Vs. The Rockers (SNME 1990)
5. Vs. Sting (Halloween Havoc 1998)
6. Vs. Roddy Piper (Nitro 2-8-99)
7. w/ Hollywood Hogan Vs. Roddy Piper and Randy Savage
8.Team WCW (Diamond Dallas Page, Roddy Piper, and The Warrior) Vs. nWo Hollywood (Hollywood Hogan, Bret Hart, and Stevie Ray) Vs. nWo Wolfpac (Kevin Nash, Sting and Lex Luger) Fall Brawl 1998)
9. Vs. Will Sasso (WCW Nitro)
10. Vs. Bob Backlund (WrestleMania XI)
I decided to include the Vince match; even though technically it wasn't Bret's fault it sucked, you could say that for most of the matches on this list.
Anyway, watch them at your own risk!
|
|
|
|
Post by The Masked Heel WAS WRONG on Sept 8, 2013 10:55:59 GMT -5
Any match vs. Triple H.
4/10
|
|
|
|
Post by cabbageboy on Sept 8, 2013 11:04:06 GMT -5
How did we not mention the Goldberg match from Starrcade? It only ended the guy's career and had a stupid Piper run in as a pathetic attempt to recreate Montreal. Basically Bret's time in WCW sucked. Stuff like Wargames was just bad anyway but isn't really a Bret match. He's in it but so were 8 other schmucks.
As far as the WM 12 match goes, I think the problem with it is that the psychology was 100% wrong. Watch the match. It is wrestled like a typical NWA 60 minute title defense that was the status quo of 1970s and early 80s booking. The problem is that it is an Iron Man match, which requires both men to try as best they can to gain pins and submissions.
|
|
