Chip
Hank Scorpio
Slam Jam Death.
Posts: 5,185
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Post by Chip on Sept 18, 2013 20:14:17 GMT -5
I think Jericho underestimates just how much the audience is aware of insider terms and general workings on. I don't think you need to read dirt sheets and be a forum monster to understand those. In WWE's own DVDs and documentaries they use the terms surprisingly often. Hell you could probably learn everything from the Death of WCW or the Ultimate Warrior documentaries.
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Post by xxshoyuweeniexx on Sept 18, 2013 20:23:06 GMT -5
I agree with him, honestly I remember being 10 and watching during the Attitude Era before that. I remember loving when Austin and Rock joked around and kicked the bad guys asses. I loved it, loved all the over the topness and showy stuff back then. But what I didn't like, in WCW and WWF, was when they went waaaay over my head with stuff with "not laying down for you brother", Vince Russo on-screen, JOB Squad, or shoot promos where they used "real names" and crap like that.
I think this angle is working though, but only because it's simply this: The Coporation doesn't want someone the crowd loves as Champion because he's different and that's not fair and they're also making things unfair fot the rest of the good guys. The drawing dimes and ratings and other insider things isn't hurting the angle, but it's not doing anythting for the casual fan who either doesn't know about any of this or doesn't care.
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Tony Schiavontay
Dennis Stamp
This is the greatest post in the history of this board!
Posts: 4,083
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Post by Tony Schiavontay on Sept 18, 2013 21:30:17 GMT -5
"Don't forget your scissors, Sid.........I SAID...." WOOOOOOW! |
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CM Dazz
King Koopa
Chuck
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Post by CM Dazz on Sept 18, 2013 21:59:09 GMT -5
Not sure about his numbers, but I'd wager more than half the fan base doesn't give a crap about what happens unless its on TV. Most people just want to be entertained, & don't care about who's dating who, or who has "heat". I'd also wager even less care about ratings, or who makes the company money.
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Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Sept 18, 2013 22:22:34 GMT -5
There goes Jericho, wanting titles to meant something.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2013 1:28:16 GMT -5
There goes Jericho, wanting titles to meant something. What a belt mark! |
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Post by celticjobber on Sept 19, 2013 1:34:10 GMT -5
There goes Jericho, wanting titles to meant something. What a belt mark!  |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2013 8:01:29 GMT -5
I think Jericho is severely underestimating both the average person's intelligence and this angle's ability to get its point across.
I don't think you need to know anything about the wrestling business to understand that in kayfabe, a champion that people don't want to see can still be "bad for business," which is HHH's entire stance, and I think anyone of at least an average mental capacity can understand what "drawing money" means in that context. He put the belt on Orton in kayfabe, and that pretty much illustrated his entire concept and showed the audience that there can be a champion that they don't want to see.
It's not like he's referencing things that only hardcore dirtsheet readers know about or using words like "kayfabe" that aren't a part of everyday language. The whole point of this angle is that HHH is saying that the people the fans want to see are bad for business, and that's exactly what he was doing with Edge. Even if people who didn't understand it thought, "oh, he's a corporate guy using business lingo I don't understand," I can't imagine anyone not picking up on what he was implying.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2013 8:34:52 GMT -5
I don't know if its bad for business or beyond the casual fan's understanding, but the "never drew a dime" insider stuff is just bad writing if you ask me. I get that its trying to be meta and self-referential, but it just comes off as lazy writing to me.
"Uh...what's extreme and shocking?"
"Let's use insider terms to make the crowd think we're talking about REAL stuff, not the stupid fake stuff we usually talk about."
Way to grab that low-hanging fruit guys.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2013 10:04:16 GMT -5
I get where he's going but I don't think there's anything wrong with this particular case. Stuff like "drawing a dime" isn't really that insider. It might be a good idea in promos to explain what they mean in context once or twice though.
I don't mean HHH with a mic saying to the crowd "Now what drawing a dime means is...".
But just more like "You never drew a dime. No one paid to see you." Now everyone knows what that means. He's talking about things being "best for business" after all so stuff like that is appropriate here. Hell the reason the whole storyline is taking place is that HHH, in kayfabe, doesn't think Daniel Bryan fits the image of what the people want to see in a champion.
I'm on board with most of this stuff as long as it meets two criteria:
1. Obscure stuff isn't regularly being referenced, such that most of the crowd has no idea what's going on. (Like Bischoff talking about scissors in WCW).
2. Kayfabe isn't literally broken, where things being scripted or the predetermined outcomes of matches aren't talked about on the air.
It's very rare for the WWE to break either of those fortunately.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Sept 19, 2013 10:35:29 GMT -5
Agree with most of this, but in regards to Big Show being broke that is VERY much realistic. Plenty of athletes and, other people in the world of entrainment go broke despite still being in the public eye. I think the WWE is oddly enough more mature now than it ever was in the Attitude era. is it realistic? yeah it is. but who the hell has sympathy for MC Hammer blowing all that money on stupid shit like champagne sprinklers? |
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Post by Ronny Rayguns Is All Elite on Sept 19, 2013 12:19:26 GMT -5
Agree with most of this, but in regards to Big Show being broke that is VERY much realistic. Plenty of athletes and, other people in the world of entrainment go broke despite still being in the public eye. I think the WWE is oddly enough more mature now than it ever was in the Attitude era. is it realistic? yeah it is. but who the hell has sympathy for MC Hammer blowing all that money on stupid shit like champagne sprinklers? Hammer also went broke by being too nice and trying to give damn near everybody in Oakland a job. There's a lot of ways a formerly rich person can go broke without necessarily wasting it. The stock market crash a few years back hurt a lot of people. There are lots of ways the writers can spin Show going broke to make him look sympathetic. |
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Sept 19, 2013 12:21:36 GMT -5
is it realistic? yeah it is. but who the hell has sympathy for MC Hammer blowing all that money on stupid shit like champagne sprinklers? Hammer also went broke by being too nice and trying to give damn near everybody in Oakland a job. There's a lot of ways a formerly rich person can go broke without necessarily wasting it. The stock market crash a few years back hurt a lot of people. There are lots of ways the writers can spin Show going broke to make him look sympathetic. but they didn't. they gave a bizarre explanation involving him building a strip-mall, which seems ridiculous for a man whose going to be on the road 300 days a year and unable to run it properly. |
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Post by katiemorgan67212 on Sept 19, 2013 20:44:55 GMT -5
At this point there is no excuse for fans to be confused by worked shoots. WWE has been doing them for more than 20 years.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Sept 19, 2013 21:21:17 GMT -5
If written properly, "insider" stuff can fit into kayfabe as long as it's not too ridiculous. I can see a wrestler threatening to squash his opponent or a heel authority figure stating that he'll "bury" anyone who opposes him.
And look at the The Prime Time Players. A good chunk of their gimmick is that they're two cocky guys who think they're huge draws, hence the "Millions of Dollars" catchphrase.
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trollrogue
Hank Scorpio
Nashville City of Music!!
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Post by trollrogue on Sept 19, 2013 22:12:22 GMT -5
Since it's Jericho I probably disagree with it, pretty rare I do agree with his views on things, but in this case I have no idea of what he's even trying to say. Just seems to be a stream of words. He's saying that the entire angle is worded in such a way that it doesn't make sense to the average wrestling fan; that it doesn't connect as fully with them or alienates them because they don't understand the connotations of what's being said. He said that HHH saying Edge didn't draw a dime is silly, because 80% of the audience doesn't have an understanding of the mechanics of the business and will instead gauge success entirely on kayfabe accomplishments, not information they're not privy to. They only know Edge as a Hall of Famer and multiple time Champion. Not as a statistic in ratings/buyrates. short and sweet: Marks don't care about business or inside info. They react to characters and what they personally understand. Y2J also went on to add that Championships themselves are the only way the WWE can 'connect' with those 80% casual fans who don't care about the insider information. If only the WWE would treat their Championships with more prestige (i.e. heavily promoting a RAW or Smackdown Title Match since it should be treated as a free PPV match practically). Rather than venture more into the Reality TV side of things, Jericho would have the WWE retreat more into the kayfabe world of their own creation. It's debatable since a lot of good things (CM Punk's rise to fame, notably) came out of the kayfabe-crushing post-Pipe Bomb storylines. There's been hits and misses, to be sure, and when you compare smarky-written RAW episodes to the always kayfabed-out NXT (which IMO is always at a high-entertainment level for being only an hour show) there is some truth to what Jericho is saying. The incredible 'big deal' feeling you get when NXT rookies are competing for a shot at one of the belts on that show is how midcarders should desire the IC/US/Tag Team belts. That passion, as you can plainly see every episode of NXT, will directly translate into the fans being more passionate about the product. |
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