Injustice45
Fry's dog Seymour
Consider me the Athena/Yoshimitsu of Avatars and Signatures.
Posts: 23,917
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Post by Injustice45 on Sept 21, 2013 23:16:39 GMT -5
We all now know a serious gay wrestler works but what about a serious bisexual wrestler? We all know serious bisexual divas got over Remember what happened with Orlando Jordan at TNA?
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Surfer Sandman
Bubba Ho-Tep
You had to be a big shot, didn't cha
Posts: 506
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Post by Surfer Sandman on Sept 21, 2013 23:36:46 GMT -5
I know the perfect man for the job FAN-JERK-OFFF!!!
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Essential1
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Essential1 on Sept 21, 2013 23:38:21 GMT -5
Orlando wants the OP to ask that question again.
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Post by Young Game on Sept 21, 2013 23:38:30 GMT -5
Boy...Bi?
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Sept 21, 2013 23:42:52 GMT -5
Orlando wants the OP to ask that question again. I don't care for OJ, but I would wreck either of the two people sitting next to him
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
Posts: 16,533
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Post by FinalGwen on Sept 21, 2013 23:52:57 GMT -5
To be entirely honest, I think OJ's gimmick gets too much flack among the IWC. Admittedly, it's not the best portrayal of bisexual people, but considering how Goldust is generally remembered as one of the greatest gimmicks ever even when he did stuff far worse than anything OJ did... Well, it makes me wonder why the reactions are so different. Maybe it's easier to accept for people when it's a straight guy acting that way? For instance, everyone always brings up the lotion thing as being too out there, but... Well, this:
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Post by Banjo Is Broken on Sept 22, 2013 0:09:45 GMT -5
Orlando wants the OP to ask that question again. I don't care for OJ, but that I would wreck either of the two people sitting next to him The female is indy wrestler chick Santana Garrett. I always wanted her to be a bigger part of the Knockouts division. And yes, I agree, she is quite foxy.
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Post by Hit Girl on Sept 22, 2013 0:14:08 GMT -5
Any wrestler whose gimmick is based on who they are attracted to won't work, because quite simply sexual attraction and relationships play little or no role in wrestling. It's not a soap opera where relationships, marriages, divorces etc...form the core of the stories. Wrestling is a simulated sport, and sporting goals and rivalries should form the basis of the characters and storylines. If of course we ignore all the high-profile relationship-based feuds and dozens of marriage storylines, of course. Which usually don't work.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Sept 22, 2013 0:20:23 GMT -5
To be entirely honest, I think OJ's gimmick gets too much flack among the IWC. Admittedly, it's not the best portrayal of bisexual people, but considering how Goldust is generally remembered as one of the greatest gimmicks ever even when he did stuff far worse than anything OJ did... Well, it makes me wonder why the reactions are so different. Maybe it's easier to accept for people when it's a straight guy acting that way? For instance, everyone always brings up the lotion thing as being too out there, but... Well, this: The difference is that (The Artist Formerly Known as) Goldust didn't really come across as someone who was supposed to be representing LGBT people at all. He was just a freak who did these bizarre things to play mind games with his opponents. As a bisexual person, OJ should've thought about a better way to represent us. If TNA had forced OJ to play a "fairy" or <other F-word> under the threat of being buried or fired, I'd give him a pass. But he came up with that gimmick himself. When I see "people" like the character OJ played, it sometimes makes me wish I could go back into the closet. I know it's a joke around here, but I seriously want a "serious gay" or "serious bisexual" wrestler. I'd love a badass John Cena, or Daniel Bryan type who just happens to have a thing for guys, and could possibly be marketed to the LGBT community the same way that the Divas are marketed to straight guys with the whole "smart, sexy, powerful" tag. If he has to be a comedy guy, I'd rather it be a jockish "dude-bro" type like Ziggler, Miz, Cody (more in-line with his JBL and Cole Show persona), Ryder or Riley (getting to show the enthusiasm he has on commentary, minus the excess Miz mentions).
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Essential1
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Essential1 on Sept 22, 2013 0:29:43 GMT -5
If the guy knows how to work the crowd it would work. Jake Roberts or Raven could make it work in a heelish way and guys like Seth Rollins or Chris Jericho could make it work by being pretty boys who happen to be into guys but don't shove it down everyones throat.
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
Posts: 16,533
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Post by FinalGwen on Sept 22, 2013 0:30:14 GMT -5
If of course we ignore all the high-profile relationship-based feuds and dozens of marriage storylines, of course. Which usually don't work. Savage/Elizabeth is generally considered one of the highlights of that era. Kane/Tori humanised Kane's character and made him even more popular. HHH/Steph was a huge storyline, and we're still getting the effects today. Lita/Matt gave Team Xtreme a unique dynamic, and helped their popularity. Lita/Edge gave Edge a huge boost in terms of heel heat that revitalised his career (Lita less so, sadly). The Bellas/Gail/Bryan was where many started to see Bryan's comedic value. AJ/Bryan gave him a perfect conduit for being a heel. And I know they're divisive, but AJ's relationships made that whole angle something we'd never seen in wrestling before, with the mind games on a romantic level. Wrestling marriages are a bit overdone, but relationships have made the product better and enhanced characters for decades, and I don't see why they're such a bad thing. The difference is that (The Artist Formerly Known as) Goldust didn't really come across as someone who was supposed to be representing LGBT people at all. He was just a freak who did these bizarre things to play mind games with his opponents. As a bisexual person, OJ should've thought about a better way to represent us. If TNA had forced OJ to play a "fairy" or <other F-word> under the threat of being buried or fired, I'd give him a pass. But he came up with that gimmick himself. When I see "people" like the character OJ played, it sometimes makes me wish I could go back into the closet. I know it's a joke around here, but I seriously want a "serious gay" or "serious bisexual" wrestler. I'd love a badass John Cena, or Daniel Bryan type who just happens to have a thing for guys, and could possibly be marketed to the LGBT community the same way that the Divas are marketed to straight guys with the whole "smart, sexy, powerful" tag. If he has to be a comedy guy, I'd rather it be a jockish "dude-bro" type like Ziggler, Miz, Cody (more in-line with his JBL and Cole Show persona), Ryder or Riley (getting to show the enthusiasm he has on commentary, minus the excess Miz mentions). I always saw OJ's weirder stuff as playing mind games on opponents too, so I don't see why that was such a big deal, beyond that he was genuinely bi. And yeah, I'd like a more regular take too, but I really don't think OJ was trying to say 'this is how all bi people act', he was doing the same thing as Goldust.
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Post by Hit Girl on Sept 22, 2013 0:39:46 GMT -5
Which usually don't work. Savage/Elizabeth is generally considered one of the highlights of that era. Kane/Tori humanised Kane's character and made him even more popular. HHH/Steph was a huge storyline, and we're still getting the effects today. Lita/Matt gave Team Xtreme a unique dynamic, and helped their popularity. Lita/Edge gave Edge a huge boost in terms of heel heat that revitalised his career (Lita less so, sadly). The Bellas/Gail/Bryan was where many started to see Bryan's comedic value. AJ/Bryan gave him a perfect conduit for being a heel. And I know they're divisive, but AJ's relationships made that whole angle something we'd never seen in wrestling before, with the mind games on a romantic level. Wrestling marriages are a bit overdone, but relationships have made the product better and enhanced characters for decades, and I don't see why they're such a bad thing. Macho/Elizabeth and AJ/Bryan (to a lesser extent) are the rare examples. With HHH/Steph the focus of the story was mostly about corporate power struggles and Steph's desire to get revenge on her father. Team X-Treme worked mostly because of their high spot style, and the novelty of a girl doing those kinds of moves too. I barely remember Tori/Kane and The Bellas/Gail/Bryan thing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2013 0:54:32 GMT -5
I'd rather see a bisexual heel in the Goldust/Adrian Street vein. Especially someone like Street, who was a straight up sociopath. It's not that I don't think a bisexual face would be wonderfully progressive but I don't know how well it would play into his or her character. It might not be pc but a Street-like heel would be phenomenal.
They play up the "is he or isn't?" idea and he's a total animal in the ring. Add the fact that his wife, Miss Linda, was like a proto-Chyna and that he had his dark, glam inspired music videos, and you had a fleshed out character. Someone here said that he was essentially William Regal doing the Goldust gimmick and that pretty much fits. So, I'd like to see someone have a similar gimmick; Fandango could do it, imo.
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Post by kamero00 on Sept 22, 2013 0:58:21 GMT -5
It's wrestling, EVERYthing is over the top. They had women tackle Dude Love FFS.
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Crappler El 0 M
Dalek
Never Forgets an Octagon
I'm a good R-Truth.
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Post by Crappler El 0 M on Sept 22, 2013 1:05:17 GMT -5
Well, we have had female characters who have gotten romantic with both men and women. There were pretty overt lesbian overtones with Torrie Wilson, Candace Michelle, and Victoria, though Candace also flirted with Vince McMahon heavily during this time and Torrie Wilson has had on-screen relationships with the Flairs, Shane Douglas, Kidman, and Tajiri.
Of course, this is not really a serious example. This is more WWE playing to the male fantasy of hot lesbians. ECW did the same thing with Beulah and Kimona who hooked up with Tommy Dreamer. Again, it's not really a serious bisexual storyline, but playing into male fantasies. Raw in 2002 and 2003 was kind of pushing the envelope in many ways with stuff like HLA and Katie Vick.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
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Post by Reflecto on Sept 22, 2013 1:21:12 GMT -5
As a bisexual person, OJ should've thought about a better way to represent us. If TNA had forced OJ to play a "fairy" or <other F-word> under the threat of being buried or fired, I'd give him a pass. But he came up with that gimmick himself. When I see "people" like the character OJ played, it sometimes makes me wish I could go back into the closet. It's still hard to really know with TNA about going that over the top for gimmicks like OJ's though. OJ had said he came up with the gimmick himself, but in interviews about it, OJ had said the original plan he had was far, far more toned down (he'd simply come to the ring with a male and female valet, kiss both of them, have his match, win it by some questionable way. After the match, an interviewer would talk to him and say "What was the deal out there?", to which OJ would say something to the effect of "Well, the match probably was kind of hard in the end, but referees are human, things happen", and talk about everything 'but' kissing both valets. Which is closer to the 'serious' gimmick mentioned. Personally, and it might be cliche, I would blame Vince Russo for how the OJ gimmick turned out because it seems similar to Mick Foley in the Dude Love gimmick. The fans all know Foley created Dude Love, and it was obvious in 1997- but now that we know Vince Russo and know his m.o., there's always been that little part of me that thinks 'did they let Foley do Dude Love so he could be his dream character for a little while, or did he do Dude Love because Russo saw his chance to give a wrestler an Austin Powers gimmick and get it past Vince McMahon's radar? That's really my thoughts on this- OJ came up with the concept- but as for how it came out on television, there's too much question to think 'did OJ himself come up with these storylines, or did Russo see this as his chance to give a wrestler a Lady GaGa gimmick?'
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2013 2:20:08 GMT -5
I think OJ didn't get over because he was OJ. What I've seen and people said he was still boring and the gimmick came across forced with all style and no substance. Over the topness is a hard thing to do. Like look at some movies that try hard to do over the topness or exploit genre tropes. The good ones have substance with some heart, decent social commentary, poking fun at tropes but not full blown calling it stupid, and still genuinely funny or enjoyable for people who don't get what they are parodying exactly. The bad ones either become unintentionally hilarious or amateurish.
Goldust did help by being the first rated r sexual gimmick that pushed boundaries at the right decade but the genius of the gimmick was the vagueness and mysterious aura he gave himself plus the creative unpredictable things he did. He played mind games with the audiences more then the wrestlers. Plus he constantly added dimensions to his character or evolved it so it never became stale like his stuttering or his entire run with Booker T.
I guess what I'm saying is that everyone knew OJ was going to play a bisexual character and everyone knew he was going to play Goldust 2.0 and he did to much of our disappointment. If he tried something new and something unexpected he would of done better. I guess another thing that worked against him was he's Orlando Jordan and no one really couldn't get past that. It's like if they acknowledged Ryback as Skip Sheffield or Bray Wyatt as Husky Harris from there re debuts they wouldn't be over as they are now. It could backfire like Tensai that he's pretty well known but could acknowledge vaguely but not to vaguely who they were before and not hide the fact they aren't completely different people.
I don't know I'm bit drunk
Edit: guess another reason why OJ failed as people are more acceptant of LGBT now then they were in the 90's and many felt uncomfortable booing someone based on their sexual orientation. As someone said before if you had Raven or Edge playing a sleazy bisexual character it would work because it would be different to see those badass rocker kids everyone secretly kind of wanted to be to like dudes and girls. Less Gaga more Mick Jagger
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Sept 22, 2013 19:55:34 GMT -5
Except for the sunscreen thing (which was embarrassing), OJ's gimmick was perfectly fine, as far as representation of bisexual people. He was just a wrestling Lady Gaga.
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Strotha
Hank Scorpio
In heaven, everything is fine
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Post by Strotha on Sept 22, 2013 23:01:13 GMT -5
As a bi dude I always envisioned my own fantasy gimmick as having bisexual tendencies, but apart from that he'd be a creepy psychopathic slightly effeminate pretentious underground artist who condescends the fans for not understanding him and how true artists are never appreciated in their time, so he wouldn't be a very good representation of bisexuals at all. I'm just looking at it from the perspective of an over the top heel version of my actual personality, or how I think people see me. I don't know if that'd be a "serious" bisexual character though.
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Post by rybackrulez on Sept 22, 2013 23:55:52 GMT -5
Leave it to Nipple H to bring all that crap into the WWE. Well, I don't think she booked Randy/Elizabeth. Or goldustxahmed, goldustxrazor, piperxgoldust
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