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Post by tigermaskxxxvii on Sept 27, 2013 15:44:06 GMT -5
We hear lots of criticism of the state of wrestling today. In particular, the WWE is criticized for recruiting and developing only a certain very limited, "cookie-cutter" type of individual as their stars of the future: 6'4'-6'5", 250-290 or so, slick, pumped, tanned, oiled, perfect physique. Makes you wonder if some of the big stars of the past like Harley Race or Dusty Rhodes would even get a look today, given their less-than-perfect bodies. An example that sticks out in my mind is Dick Murdoch. Dick was about 6'5", and 260 or so, with a big gut, and shapeless arms and shoulders. But, anybody who knew and worked with him will tell you in a heartbeat that he was one of the toughest and strongest guys they ever saw. If you got in a bar fight, you'd want Dick Murdoch on your side. I have a particular interest because my dad was one of those guys. He was a jobber in the Memphis territory who stood abut 6'1", and weighed 240, with a Dick Murdoch-like physique. And I knew, as did all his friends and acquaintances, that he could clean house on any 3-4 regular guys in a brawl. It happened a time or two. In those days, the wrestlers were commonly getting baited by big guys in bars. I know he sent a couple of NFL football players to the hospital when he worked a few shows in Dallas. So, what do you think? Are the wrestlers of today as tough as the guys from the territory era? Who would win in a shoot-the average jobber from the 1960s-70s, or the mid-card guy in today's WWE? The territory guys are clearly tougher, but it's also an unfair comparison. In the territories, a wrestler HAD to be incredibly tough, simply because everyone believed it was a real fight- and the territory guys had to be able to hold their own in a legit fight if some fan tried to run in and attack/some guy at the bar didn't think 'rasslers' were that tough/etc. By contrast, in the modern era, the fact that wrestling is predetermined is common knowledge, so a modern day wrestler doesn't have that same need to be able to kick some ass in a legit fight. And this must've been so much worse for the jobbers. If someone is drunk and/or dumb enough to think they can throw down with pro wrestlers than they should definately think they can throw down with the wrestlers all of the other wrestlers are constantly beating. and yet 15 years ago Shawn Michaels still ended up in the doghouse for having the audacity to lose against NINE people. Shawn came back and won the Royal Rumble, how is that the doghouse? haha I imagine this is where alot of the innuendo concerning Vince and Shawn's relationship. "What?! Not only did Shawn Michaels not get fired for burying this business by losing a fight to nine marines while pilled up, but he won the Royal Rumble and the WWF Title at WrestleMania?! What, is Vince gay for this guy?" |
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NOwave
Don Corleone
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Post by NOwave on Sept 27, 2013 18:07:36 GMT -5
Here's a little context-i've had the advantage of "inside" information. My dad was a wrestler (mostly jobber) back in the old Memphis promotion from about 1960 thru the early 80s. He knew most of the big names from that era because they traveled thru Memphis on a regular basis. They knew who the real tough guys were-it was more of a badge of honor in the business then than now.
Examples: Starting with Harley Race, since he's been mentioned several times here. June, 1973-Harley is early in his 1st NWA world heavyweight title run when he stops for a couple of weeks in Memphis. Jerry Jarrett is running the territory at the time for the Welch/Gulas organization, and takes Harley out for dinner and drinks one night with a few of the boys, including my dad, after a Saturday night show in Jonesboro, Arkansas. At a bar for a nightcap, a group of 4 Marines decide they want to take on the wrestlers. Harley tells the rest of the boys to watch his back, and proceeds to clean house on all of them. He holds one in a chickenwing until police get there, and "convinces" him to confess to starting the fight. The Marines were arrested and it made the newspaper in Memphis and is in the Commercial Appeal archives. I can't find an internet link to it.
The Funks-This is from Terry Funk's book-Terry and Dory Jr are driving from Amarillo to somewhere with Jerry Graham in the car. They had just finished a match in which they beat up local mexican baby face Ricky Romero. They stop at a beer joint for Graham to run in and get beer for the trip. After a while, Graham hasnt come out, and the Funks go in. Graham is fighting off 20 or so mexican-americans who heard about the match and are incensed at Graham for beating up their hero. Terry and Dory wade into it and leave bodies laying everywhere. The three of them get back in the car and leave just ahead of the sheriff's arrival. The Funks and Graham are later questioned by police and released. Multiple participants are hospitalized, and it makes the Amarillo newspapers. Terry came to Memphis often and my dad knew him well. He believed the story to be true.
I trained for about a week back in 1977 as a wrestler with Tojo Yamamoto before deciding it wasn't for me. The first things taught were taking bumps and how to protect the business against an opponent who was trying to shoot. (another reference-Jerry Jarrett's book-read about what Sailor Moran taught Jerry) You HAD to know what to do to protect the business at that time. I have no doubt that most guys from that period could take out pretty much anybody. Basically, they didn't fight "fair." Example: a guy grabs you, you pull in close and bite him across the bridge of the nose as hard as you can. That will drop almost anybody. Or-A guy gets on top of you. With one hand you hit him hard in the ear or(if you really want to do some damage) the trachea. or if your hands are not free, head butt them in the nose as hard as you can. You learn to anticipate, make them miss the first punch(or at least lessen the impact by learning to "take it" by going with the direction of the blow) and them immobilize the opponent with one of the tricks. Then put them into a chickening or other hold that puts pressure on a joint. Virtually anybody will give up.
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Post by rybackrulez on Sept 27, 2013 18:26:00 GMT -5
Ok the op sounds like he thinks his dad was the toughest guy ever. He is also mad people do not fear beer gut having chicken legged older men except if they are rapist.
Is he clamoring for more fat people?
So then it turns into a bunch of hearsay
"wrestlers beat up drunk people who aren't fully able to comprehend"
It is just like the nasty boys story
They cornered ken shamrock and took him down.
Eh. It is mostly drunken bar fights where the wrestlers have a huge size advantage
I am no impressed with old timey stories you are telling.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2013 19:25:27 GMT -5
Give me any source that's not something a worker said or wrote, that's all I want. I work security in a bar, help teach at an MMA school (ZombieProof BJJ in Cape Breton) and I can't tell you the kind of eye roll I do when someone says they beat four guys in a fight. You're also getting some pretty crappy combat advice if someone's telling you to take a swing from your back at an opponent who's on top of you. I mean, there are third party reports of what a guy like Billy the Kid did but there's no third party stories of Harley kicking ass in a barfight? No news clippings? No articles?
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Sept 27, 2013 22:56:39 GMT -5
How did people ever defend themselves before the advent of Mixed Martial Arts, I'll never know.
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Post by Slingshot Suplay on Sept 27, 2013 23:14:59 GMT -5
One thing that was amazing to me is how Kerry Von Erich was able to wrestle for the last few years of his career at a high level after his foot amputation. I know he was drugged up, but man he was still good.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Sept 28, 2013 9:02:59 GMT -5
How did people ever defend themselves before the advent of Mixed Martial Arts, I'll never know. The real question is, how did nerdy people on the internet pretend they knew everything there is to know about fighting before the advent of MMA? |
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Sept 28, 2013 10:35:27 GMT -5
How did people ever defend themselves before the advent of Mixed Martial Arts, I'll never know. The real question is, how did nerdy people on the internet pretend they knew everything there is to know about fighting before the advent of MMA? I don't know. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2013 10:40:29 GMT -5
The real question is, how did nerdy people on the internet pretend they knew everything there is to know about fighting before the advent of MMA? I don't know. |
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NOwave
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,735
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Post by NOwave on Sept 28, 2013 10:53:10 GMT -5
This is the best line of this thread so far
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Post by rybackrulez on Sept 28, 2013 11:46:25 GMT -5
Because you don't throw punches with your back to somebody.
This is all hearsay and urban legend
I believe the poop stories a lot more than the barfight ones
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Post by eDemento2099 on Sept 29, 2013 0:46:01 GMT -5
I'm not sure yesterday's wrestlers are necessarily tougher than today's ones. I mean, yes, yesterday's wrestlers had to be able to stand up to civilians who picked fights with them and/or called wrestling 'fake,' but today's wrestlers have to consistently wrestle PPV-style matches on house shows since the Monday Night Wars effectively made star-vs-jobber squash matches a distant memory. What's more, ECW and the rise of extreme wrestling raised people's expectations about what it takes to 'convincingly' win a wrestling match. It used to be that moves like the DDT and flying elbow drops off turnbuckles would put guys away, but now guys have to practically kill their opponents in order to convincingly put them away. And I say that as someone who holds no illusions about how much I enjoy 'extreme' wrestling promotions like ECW and CZW.
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Post by Heinz Doofenschmirtz on Sept 29, 2013 9:35:25 GMT -5
I can't tell you the kind of eye roll I do when people tell me they teach MMA or bounce in a bar.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847 
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Post by Reflecto on Sept 29, 2013 9:58:18 GMT -5
Ok the op sounds like he thinks his dad was the toughest guy ever. He is also mad people do not fear beer gut having chicken legged older men except if they are rapist. Is he clamoring for more fat people? So then it turns into a bunch of hearsay "wrestlers beat up drunk people who aren't fully able to comprehend" It is just like the nasty boys story They cornered ken shamrock and took him down. Eh. It is mostly drunken bar fights where the wrestlers have a huge size advantage I am no impressed with old timey stories you are telling. Something tells me you could be in the bar, yourself, with a close friend you went to the bar with, had them challenge a pro wrestler and say it's fake, watch the wrestler beat him up in front of you, and your response would be "So, [friend], when did you start training to be a pro wrestler so you could work a fake fight in front of these people and make that guy look tough?" |
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Post by rybackrulez on Sept 29, 2013 17:38:27 GMT -5
Something tells me taking the carny's word as bond means i can tell you santa clause existS
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Sept 29, 2013 19:15:04 GMT -5
Kind of two different topics here:
1) Athletes of all types today have better physiques and musculature now due to weight training (and in many cases PEDs) -- look at baseball players of the 1970s vs. today, same with offensive linemen in football who are sculpted 6-foot-7 and 300 pounds vs. 6-2 and a big-gutted 270 only a decade or two ago. So it makes sense that professional wrestlers who put their bodies on display will do what they can to enhance their physiques.
But I don't see where WWE today is cookie-cutter: Daniel Bryan, CM Punk, the Wyatt Family, two of the three Shield guys, Broadus Clay -- I could go on and on, but none fit the "body beautiful" mold. Nor does Mark Henry, Fandango or the Usos or several others. Mick Foley could get signed by WWE and get over today just as he did in his prime, and some guys with great physiques like Otunga and Wade Barrett and Zeke Jackson have struggled to get over. A wrestler needs a look of some sort to create an identity, but it doesn't seem cookie-cutter to me when I look at the roster. Rather it seems more diverse than it was in the territory days.
2) Toughness comes in a lot of ways. If toughness means winning bar fights, yes, probably those guys of yesteryear are tougher -- but today's guys probably wouldn't stay on the roster long if they were constantly brawling in bars because today that's just an invitation to TMZ and lawsuits.
But it takes a certain type of toughness to be disciplined enough to work the schedule these people work, for John Cena to repeatedly return to the ring in a minimal time after surgery, for a guy like Punk to put his body through what he puts it through without painkillers or drinking his way through the bumps and bruises, for these guys with those muscles and physiques to control their diets and work out enough to keep that look while going from city to city non-stop throughout the year.
So who's tougher? I'd say you've got to have some kind of toughness to make it in this business regardless.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Sept 29, 2013 22:16:51 GMT -5
Kind of two different topics here: 1) Athletes of all types today have better physiques and musculature now due to weight training (and in many cases PEDs) -- look at baseball players of the 1970s vs. today, same with offensive linemen in football who are sculpted 6-foot-7 and 300 pounds vs. 6-2 and a big-gutted 270 only a decade or two ago. So it makes sense that professional wrestlers who put their bodies on display will do what they can to enhance their physiques. But I don't see where WWE today is cookie-cutter: Daniel Bryan, CM Punk, the Wyatt Family, two of the three Shield guys, Broadus Clay -- I could go on and on, but none fit the "body beautiful" mold. Nor does Mark Henry, Fandango or the Usos or several others. Mick Foley could get signed by WWE and get over today just as he did in his prime, and some guys with great physiques like Otunga and Wade Barrett and Zeke Jackson have struggled to get over. A wrestler needs a look of some sort to create an identity, but it doesn't seem cookie-cutter to me when I look at the roster. Rather it seems more diverse than it was in the territory days. 2) Toughness comes in a lot of ways. If toughness means winning bar fights, yes, probably those guys of yesteryear are tougher -- but today's guys probably wouldn't stay on the roster long if they were constantly brawling in bars because today that's just an invitation to TMZ and lawsuits. But it takes a certain type of toughness to be disciplined enough to work the schedule these people work, for John Cena to repeatedly return to the ring in a minimal time after surgery, for a guy like Punk to put his body through what he puts it through without painkillers or drinking his way through the bumps and bruises, for these guys with those muscles and physiques to control their diets and work out enough to keep that look while going from city to city non-stop throughout the year. So who's tougher? I'd say you've got to have some kind of toughness to make it in this business regardless. Wonderful post. |
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Post by rybackrulez on Sept 30, 2013 0:54:24 GMT -5
Pretty much summed up how different the world is now compared to back then.
Bar fight now and you will be black balled from the wwe. Hell rhyno got fired for breaking a potted plant.
A guy who smokes a cigar, drinks a barrell of beer with a body to match,, and chugs whiskey seems like he would be a tough guy.
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Mochi Lone Wolf
Fry's dog Seymour
Development through Destruction.
Posts: 24,153
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Sept 30, 2013 1:05:28 GMT -5
There's no way to compare the two considering how different each era is.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Sept 30, 2013 9:40:18 GMT -5
Personally, I bet the percentages would chart out bout the same in either era, a few really tough guys, a ton of pseudo tough ones.
Like Haku would be tough in any era, but so would Lesnar..I don't think you're going to find a real significant difference in 'tough guys' per capita in either era, and if you did, it'd be statistically negligible.
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