|
Post by rnrk supports BLM on Oct 11, 2013 19:04:30 GMT -5
The screwjob happened because Vince didn't think Bret was worth what he was getting paid anymore, so yeah, his days at the top of the card were undoubtedly waning.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2013 19:06:05 GMT -5
My question is...if Bret doesn't leave and we get that Austin/Hart program at WM 14.....what exactly is Shawn doing then? Drugs, lots and lots of drugs.
|
|
|
Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Oct 11, 2013 20:01:58 GMT -5
I became a bigger bret fan in his wcw run. His promos and two faced heel character were great. His best promos were in wcw and i became a bigger fan thanks to him being a prick. WCW knew how to make credible heels what a lot of people forget about the "who are you to doubt El Dandy?" promo is that in addition to being funny as hell, it was a great heel promo.
|
|
|
Post by rybackrulez on Oct 11, 2013 23:11:04 GMT -5
His best run was when he was nWo Hollywood recruiter
"lemme aks you sometin booker"
|
|
Renslayer
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
every time i come around your city...
Posts: 17,310
|
Post by Renslayer on Oct 11, 2013 23:23:27 GMT -5
If Bret had stayed then Austin wouldn't have become one of the greatest of all time as far as reaction I kinda disagree with this. By the Fall of 1997, Austin was getting the best reactions in all of wrestling
|
|
Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
Posts: 42,404
Member is Online
|
Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Oct 12, 2013 1:21:19 GMT -5
My question is...if Bret doesn't leave and we get that Austin/Hart program at WM 14.....what exactly is Shawn doing then? Drugs, lots and lots of drugs. Then washing his drugs down with drugs.
|
|
Madagascar Fred
El Dandy
TAFKA roidzilla and SUFFERIN' SUCCOTASH SON!
Posts: 8,784
|
Post by Madagascar Fred on Oct 12, 2013 1:43:24 GMT -5
Imagine how hot a Bret vs. Austin match would have been at Wrestlemania 14 with the title on the line. But after that, where would Bret slot in? I like to think he'd take some time off for his health, or just retire completely. I still don't get the idea of another Austin/Bret match (passing the torch again), this feud went on for a VERY LONG TIME (October 96-July 97 approx.), no need to rehash it once again. it would have bombed, DX/Austin/Tyson was way better/more intriguing
|
|
Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,989
Member is Online
|
Post by Mozenrath on Oct 12, 2013 2:01:49 GMT -5
If Bret had stayed then Austin wouldn't have become one of the greatest of all time as far as reaction I kinda disagree with this. By the Fall of 1997, Austin was getting the best reactions in all of wrestling It was at the least big enough to where Bret listed Austin as one of his choices of who he would drop the title to before leaving WWF, when offering options as to who to drop the title to who were not HBK, since he did not want to deal with him. I think Austin was his main choice, even.
|
|
Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
Posts: 42,404
Member is Online
|
Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Oct 12, 2013 2:05:26 GMT -5
I kinda disagree with this. By the Fall of 1997, Austin was getting the best reactions in all of wrestling It was at the least big enough to where Bret listed Austin as one of his choices of who he would drop the title to before leaving WWF, when offering options as to who to drop the title to who were not HBK, since he did not want to deal with him. I think Austin was his main choice, even. Names I've heard is anyone but Shawn, but offered up Austin, Mankind, Shamrock and show he was serious about anyone but Shawn, Brawler clean as a sheet in MSG.
|
|
|
Post by DZ: WF Legacy on Oct 12, 2013 3:21:00 GMT -5
Him leaving was such an insanely big mistake, though he nor anyone else would've had the foresight to know it.
Bret left right at the formation of DX. We got the seeds planted for the Nation feud that didn't take off, and we barely saw a DX vs Hart Foundation feud outside the final build for Bret and Shawn because there just wasn't time to get there. Owen and HHH had their battles afterwards, though. The Nation under The Rock's leadership? Nope, that peaked the following year long after the Harts and sadly Pillman were gone. There was no saving Pillman - dude was a wreck after that automobile accident or whatever it was, and his drug abuse just to get through the grind was gonna do him in regardless.
'98 would've been heel Bret dropping the belt to Austin at WM14, and afterwards it would've saw he and the Harts battling the various factions. DX 2.0 vs The Rock's Nation vs The Harts would've been amazing. Plus, you had all the C-level factions at the time to use for putting over those 3 core groups. The Hart Foundation would've had little use after the Faction Wars, so either Owen joins The Nation later in '98 or something else splits them up. This would likely be Owen's transition to the main event, with one more family feud - this time, with Bret as the heel and Owen as the face at WM15. Leading up to it could've been a lot of cool stuff, like a Bret vs Owen vs Bulldog 3-way, Bret and Anvil (heel) vs Owen & Bulldog (face), etc.
If all that happened, Owen would have received a real shot at being a main event guy in '99 instead of...you know, needlessly dying. '99 was Triple H's heel turn, and he and babyface Owen could've worked extremely well with all the fire those two would've had coming out of WM15. And Bulldog? Who knows, he fell through that trap door in WCW that led to him having more drug issues, so he still probably would've been in a better condition for at least a little while longer. And with Benoit coming to WWF in the late Attitude era, Bret and Benoit could've had a rivalry in WWF instead of WCW. It all would've worked out better sans for Bret vs Sting/DDP not having a chance to take place. Hell, he and Jericho could've worked together in the late 90s/early 00s. They could've in WCW in 1998 and half of '99 too, but those WCW goons never thought to put 'em together.
It's crazy to think about much of a chain reaction Bret's leaving caused to so many talents. I mean, there's no real doubt that Owen would be alive. Why would he be The Blue Blazer when he was given that gimmick because he didn't want to do the Jeff/Debra love triangle angle? He never would've been The Blue Blazer...and if he did for some reason, he ascended from the rafters on freakin' Heat (I think? Might've been the Smackdown pilot) before and was fine, so it's not like the stunt was a surefire accident. It just sucks to think about...Bret's career would've likely been fine, he probably wouldn't have gotten in that bike accident, or if he did it wouldn't have been as major, Owen would be alive, Bulldog probably would've died regardless but may have lasted longer...and wrestling-wise, all the cool things that could've happened in the twilight of Bret's career speak for themselves.
Can you imagine Bret Hart vs Shawn Michaels in 2002/2003 when Shawn came back? Or Bret/Lesnar, Bret/Angle, Bret/Edge, Bret/Cena, Bret/Orton, Bret/Mysterio, or who the hell knows, maybe Bret/Daniel Bryan on Velocity. He retired in 2000 pretty much, right? That's only a few years away from all those appealing matches. It could've easily happened as Bret began to step back from wrestling. It's as fun as it is sad to think about.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2013 9:04:24 GMT -5
I do sense if Bret did stick around, WWF would had made him the new Bob Backlund: a throwback who lost his mind. Backlund, kicking off the first-ever episode of Shotgun Saturday Night, comes to mind: Bob wandering around outside the nightclub the show is being held, ranting like only Bob can do. "DON'T GO IN THERE! THERE'S ALL KINDS OF SEX AND VIOLENCE AND DEBAUCHERY GOING ON!" *** A lot of the "20-year deal" was broken down to: 3 years as a wrestler and the rest as an agent. When Bret demanded some of the money at the tail end be brought up, THAT'S when Vince asked that maybe he go see if Turner's deal was still on the table. What was never brought up (and the Torch did mention on his way out of the WWF), was that a lot of that money Bret was given in that first 3 years was also to go towards TV projects, as Bret still had that acting bug in him. (His 1996 sabbatical was when he filmed the Lonesome Dove TV series that got cancelled one year short of being sold to syndication. I'm assuming had that gone to syndication, Bret planned on retiring from wrestling altogether to act/collect royalties.) My head hurts. His best year was also the beginning of the end.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2013 12:24:59 GMT -5
Yes, Bret's time was over in 1997. I have said many times, the Screwjob actually heightened his career. If that never happened, and he stuck it out in the WWF from 1997-onwards, he would have looked incredibly out of place with the mic workers and "cool factor" of that era. He was already a bit out of place in 1997, as Austin's stuff and DX's stuff always came off more important than Bret's (i.e. his feud with the Patriot).
Many people blame WCW for hurting Bret, but I think it was just Bret being out of place in that era of wrestling. Hogan was able to change his character to fit the time. Sting was able to adapt his character. While Bret in 1997-2000 was basically Bret in 1992 (except with an anti-America gimmick for a few months). He never evolved.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2013 14:40:06 GMT -5
|
|
Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
Surviving
Posts: 29,328
Member is Online
|
Post by Sephiroth on Oct 12, 2013 14:44:19 GMT -5
I don't think so, but his time at the very top was probably done. Steve Austin and DX were on their way to being the hottest things in wrestling at that point. But Bret was still a good hand in the ring, he had a great legacy and a loyal fan following, and I do believe he would have still been a major player in the WWF/E if it hadn't gone down as it did. I could easily have seen Bret as Mr. McMahon's chosen one to chase after Austin for the title, with Vince praising Bret as a ring veteran and professional and Austin claiming Vince coddled Bret and hand fed him everything. I could also have seen Bret have programs with the Rock and Triple H, who were just coming into their own at that time-a storyline with a major name like Bret would have been an enormous boost for either of them. I could perhaps even have seen Bret do a feud with Foley, pitting off the hardcore style against classic, technical wrestling. So I think Bret would have remained a major name and still been in and out of the main event-but he would no longer have been the face of the company.
|
|
|
Post by cabbageboy on Oct 12, 2013 17:33:56 GMT -5
Here's the big aspect that is going overlooked here: HBK was a far more over heel than Bret by Sept. 1997. In Wrestling With Shadows, Bret rightly worried that Shawn's heel turn on Taker would lead to Shawn being the #1 heel in the company instead of him. The problem Bret had is that he wanted to have his cake and eat it too. He wanted to be the hero in Canada and elsewhere, while being a heel in the USA. The problem is that it produces a storyline that is confusing for viewers and in the end didn't really draw. HBK had no qualms about being the biggest white trash heel the business has ever seen, like a modern updating of a Memphis heel or Michael Hayes. By the time WM 14 came I was begging for Austin to beat him and I wasn't even a big Austin fan.
The problem with Bret facing Austin is that the feud had already been done. I suppose they could say Austin never got a blowoff win, though I suppose him beating Owen at Survivor Series blew off the Harts feud. By then Austin didn't need a win over Bret to be over. And really, isn't the heel overness of HBK a prime reason why Vince found Bret expendable? Austin was being groomed as a top face, Shawn was now the top heel. Bret was boxed out booking wise and was the perfect guy to kick to the curb. Of course, Vince couldn't have foreseen HBK's back injury in early 1998. While Vince was the main villain in the WWF for the 1998-99 period, they really didn't have a clear cut top heel wrestling wise. Foley, Taker, Rock...all of those guys took turns as kinda top heels, but all retained fanbases. It wasn't really until HHH's emergence in early 2000 that they had a true top heel.
|
|
|
Post by Citizen Snips on Oct 12, 2013 17:46:41 GMT -5
Mike Tyson joining The Hart Foundation would have been totally weird.
|
|
|
Post by evilone on Oct 12, 2013 19:48:23 GMT -5
Well if Bischoff and Hogan could have seen past their egos and let Sting wrap around the storyline with Hogan on Starrcade 1997, beating him clean, whole another window of opportunities could have opened up.
Right as you thought that nWo was finished here comes debut of Bret to replace Hogan and continue the tirade with his former buddies. Bret filled with anger, due to all that happened to him in WWE, would devastate anything that crosses his path. Possibly all that would lead to return of "redemption, red & yellow" Hogan who would use fans as angle only to setup Hogan vs Bret match next year on Starrcade. Of course Hogan would go on to win the belt and with belt comes the authority as he would double cross fans, take over nWo under his own again, kick out Bret right away and few other members who would not listen to him later down the road. Those would then go on and form Wolfpack with Sting as their leader. Hogan would be recognized as great manipulator and kingpin who would only keep dangerous yes man around him to do the dirty work. He would be built as the major threat and he would go on to feud with Wolfpac and later on with Goldberg. As this is going on the real redemption road for Bret begins as he finally realizes that he has been something that he is not for past two-three years. All that could lead to big final bout between Hogan vs Goldberg vs Sting vs Hart at Starrcate 1999 where anyone besides Hogan could win and start new era.
|
|
|
Post by Joe Neglia on Oct 12, 2013 23:04:45 GMT -5
Bret wasn't meant to last much longer in the WWF one way or the other. While he was there for the beginning of the Attitude Era, he did not endure the true depths of it, and there was no way he would have adapted enough to really get by through it. His promos alone never really progressed beyond "I'll beat you, you big stinking dummy." He was a better fit for WCW at that point, who, of course, bungled it with tremendous effort. He had at least 2-3 main event years left there had they done things right. Start with a brief feud with Hall and Nash, his archenemy's running buddies. Transition to a real feud with Hogan, who has at this point lost the belt without question to Sting. Follow that up with a Sting feud, transitioning Hart back over to his more heel-like persona. A partnership with Benoit against Piper and Flair gives Benoit the main event nod and gives Hart one last round with Piper and Flair. Then set him up to be knocked down by Goldberg nearing the height of the Streak. After that, wind things down with a feud against former ally Benoit, putting Benoit over and finishing what they'd started as tags.
|
|