SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Oct 22, 2013 14:03:23 GMT -5
There should be a vested interest in making Cena appeal to the other half. That's how you "win" the election. To me, and this is not going to be popular, but if I had a kid, who was hated by a lot of kids at school, I'd try and figure out why that was, not just bemoan that side as being wrong. I'd try to ascertain if my child was doing anything to so spur on that disdain --and if he was, I'd tell him to change that aspect of his personality; or to make a concentrated effort to. Sometimes there just is blind hate. But a lot of times someone is just plain annoying and should stop being so. Going by how elections goes for both local and national, playing to your base and getting them out to vote is what wins elections. Folks who are on the fence more than likely just stay home or in this case, not watch WWE. Changing Cena won't win over the people who already hate him. Eliminating the dorkiness, Boy Scout honor code, and Superman comebacks; they will find something new to rail on him about. The Lesnar feud proved that wasn't the case, though, in the smarkiest of smark cities. You can't really lump everyone into the same category with how they'd react. You have to at least try. There was a time when WWE did. They tried to repair stale acts. But for whatever reason, they seem content on keeping Cena exactly the same. And then ridiculously acting like the people booing are wrong for reacting to a contrived act.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Oct 22, 2013 14:04:08 GMT -5
Going by how elections goes for both local and national, playing to your base and getting them out to vote is what wins elections. Folks who are on the fence more than likely just stay home or in this case, not watch WWE. Changing Cena won't win over the people who already hate him. Eliminating the dorkiness, Boy Scout honor code, and Superman comebacks; they will find something new to rail on him about. The problem isn't his dorkiness, Boy Scout, Supermaniness. People don't have a problem rooting for Cena when he's distanced from all his bad booking, like when he was fighting Nexus or when Brock Lesnar was about to skin him alive. You still had people who hated him. People hated that Brock throttled Cena for over 20 minutes before Cena used a chain and steel steps to beat him. People didn't like that Cena decided to take out the Nexus one member at a time. Cena could be booked at human levels, not in the main event picture for 3 years, and be a heel. And people will find some fault in him. Point being, you can't win everyone over.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2013 14:10:25 GMT -5
The problem isn't his dorkiness, Boy Scout, Supermaniness. People don't have a problem rooting for Cena when he's distanced from all his bad booking, like when he was fighting Nexus or when Brock Lesnar was about to skin him alive. You still had people who hated him. People hated that Brock throttled Cena for over 20 minutes before Cena used a chain and steel steps to beat him. People didn't like that Cena decided to take out the Nexus one member at a time. Cena could be booked at human levels, not in the main event picture for 3 years, and be a heel. And people will find some fault in him. Point being, you can't win everyone over. In context with the Cena problem that's been going on for years? A problem WWE could've mitigated tons of times? A problem WWE themselves have caused and continue to not really deal with? I'm sure that's exactly how they now justify continuing to keep this cancerous booking cloud around John Cena. Some people are always going to hate him, the idea is you want that contingent to not approach anywhere near the 50% mark.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Oct 22, 2013 14:11:30 GMT -5
Going by how elections goes for both local and national, playing to your base and getting them out to vote is what wins elections. Folks who are on the fence more than likely just stay home or in this case, not watch WWE. Changing Cena won't win over the people who already hate him. Eliminating the dorkiness, Boy Scout honor code, and Superman comebacks; they will find something new to rail on him about. The Lesnar feud proved that wasn't the case, though, in the smarkiest of smark cities. You can't really lump everyone into the same category with how they'd react. You have to at least try. There was a time when WWE did. They tried to repair stale acts. But for whatever reason, they seem content on keeping Cena exactly the same. And then ridiculously acting like the people booing are wrong for reacting to a contrived act. Hulk Hogan only changed up his character when he left for WCW and the opportunity arrived for him to turn heel and still keep his number one spot in the company. Hogan did his act in WWF just as long as Cena. Mid-range in his run, the boos mixed in with the cheers. Towards the time he beat Yokozuna, the boos couldn't be denied. When Yoko pinned Hulk to win back the belt, the crowd cheered. So Vince McMahon has a history of pushing a top act even when the crowd rebels. So unless Cena is leaving for TNA, he's going to remain the same.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Oct 22, 2013 14:13:06 GMT -5
You still had people who hated him. People hated that Brock throttled Cena for over 20 minutes before Cena used a chain and steel steps to beat him. People didn't like that Cena decided to take out the Nexus one member at a time. Cena could be booked at human levels, not in the main event picture for 3 years, and be a heel. And people will find some fault in him. Point being, you can't win everyone over. In context with the Cena problem that's been going on for years? A problem WWE could've mitigated tons of times? A problem WWE themselves have caused and continue to not really deal with? I'm sure that's exactly how they now justify continuing to keep this cancerous booking cloud around John Cena. Some people are always going to hate him, the idea is you want that contingent to not approach anywhere near the 50% mark. Only way it's going to stop being 50/50 is when John Cena calls it a day.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Oct 22, 2013 14:16:49 GMT -5
The Lesnar feud proved that wasn't the case, though, in the smarkiest of smark cities. You can't really lump everyone into the same category with how they'd react. You have to at least try. There was a time when WWE did. They tried to repair stale acts. But for whatever reason, they seem content on keeping Cena exactly the same. And then ridiculously acting like the people booing are wrong for reacting to a contrived act. Hulk Hogan only changed up his character when he left for WCW and the opportunity arrived for him to turn heel and still keep his number one spot in the company. Hogan did his act in WWF just as long as Cena. Mid-range in his run, the boos mixed in with the cheers. Towards the time he beat Yokozuna, the boos couldn't be denied. When Yoko pinned Hulk to win back the belt, the crowd cheered. So Vince McMahon has a history of pushing a top act even when the crowd rebels. So unless Cena is leaving for TNA, he's going to remain the same. Oh, I agree. But that's more a condemnation of Vince's stubborn stupidity than anything else. If he had Hogan in 96, he'd have kept him face, and the angle that relaunched the business would have never happened, and everyone would have had to keep pretending half (or more) of the crowd wasn't sick to death of the act.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2013 14:18:17 GMT -5
Only way it's going to stop being 50/50 is when John Cena calls it a day. ...then you feel like I did when this whole Daniel Bryan vs. "The Man" angle started and at least 80% of the crowd is cheering your top guy. I'm cool with them not changing Cena. It's not like I've got any stock in the company, so the minute he looms over the show like a booking apocalypse is about the time I find other things to watch, like Sleepy Hollow. I ain't got the energy to rant and rail against Cena booking bullshit, let alone watch it.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Oct 22, 2013 14:29:02 GMT -5
I am now starting to believe that the Cena hate isn't at Cena; it's that people hate the WWE, and that they're the only game in town. Any you can like and hate them at the same time, but I feel that there is a belief that if there was another option, they wouldn't have to see the same thing every time out. And even when it's different, he's still the representative of that.
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Post by gnr123 on Oct 22, 2013 14:45:51 GMT -5
The thing is, they keep Cena face because it hasn't done anything bad to the revenue and business. He sells a lot of merchandise, the people pay to see him that both cheer and boo him. Why turn him heel? To please the smarks who in turn are only going to cheer his new heel character? Than the kids boo him and stop buying his merchandise. We're back to square one. It's not like their losing money because Cena's been face for so many years. Sure, people are going to bitch about his character and how it's stale or corny. But, in the end of the day the WWE is a business, and they run on money. And if their getting the money from the kids who love him and the smarks who hate him, their going to keep doing it. There's no reason to turn him heel.
Will it be a fresh change, yes. Is it necessary, no. Until they begin to lose revenue (they got 480 million last year, so there's nothing to worry about) than Cena will continue be the top face of the company.
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Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
Surviving
Posts: 29,325
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Post by Sephiroth on Oct 22, 2013 15:06:00 GMT -5
I also would like to point out that if there is anything many fans resent about Cena it is not his success-it is WWE's nonstop promoting and protectionism of him. Cena is actually a great performer who has put on some incredible matches-but for some reason that is not enough. It's not enough for Cena to be the top face in the company-he has to be a legend, an icon, one of the greatest of all time! It's not enough for him to be the champion-he has to be the unbeatable champion who no one can beat! And it's not enough for Cna to beat his opponents-he has to dominate them, to win in a way that shows they were no match for him, or they have to walk away talking about how great he is and how much they admire him. The best analogy would be a cartoon another FAN poster used to have as a sig that portrayed Vince McMahon shoving Cena down a fan's throat a shouting "Take it and like it dammit!"
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wisdomwizard
King Koopa
Too Salty
Watching you.
Posts: 11,087
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Post by wisdomwizard on Oct 22, 2013 15:07:11 GMT -5
Character development as a face is the way to go with Cena if they're tired of his mixed reactions. Give him every trait he's displayed on Total Divas, have him defend the belt in some good feuds while letting Bryan stay at the top, and there you go.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2013 15:41:51 GMT -5
The thing is, they keep Cena face because it hasn't done anything bad to the revenue and business. He sells a lot of merchandise, the people pay to see him that both cheer and boo him. Why turn him heel? To please the smarks who in turn are only going to cheer his new heel character? Than the kids boo him and stop buying his merchandise. We're back to square one. It's not like their losing money because Cena's been face for so many years. Sure, people are going to bitch about his character and how it's stale or corny. But, in the end of the day the WWE is a business, and they run on money. And if their getting the money from the kids who love him and the smarks who hate him, their going to keep doing it. There's no reason to turn him heel. Will it be a fresh change, yes. Is it necessary, no. Until they begin to lose revenue (they got 480 million last year, so there's nothing to worry about) than Cena will continue be the top face of the company. Yep. This has been the answer to “why don’t they turn Cena heel or at least alter his character?” for years now. At this point when people ask the question I just assume it’s meant to be rhetorical because they must know the answer by now. It probably wouldn’t be too difficult to get more of the people booing Cena to start cheering. Stop making the childish jokes, be more serious, wear less gaudy merchandise, stop making the Superman comebacks, lose more often. If he does all that he’d almost certainly be booed by less male adults than he is now. But to the demographic he makes the most money from he then goes from a colorful larger than life superhero who they can always rely on to overcome the odds to a darker, less jokey babyface who wins some and loses some. In other words, he becomes a CM Punk or a Randy Orton (when he was a babyface). A guy they’ll cheer for but won’t necessarily be so quick to beg their parents to take them to shows to see or to buy their merchandise. It comes down to the fact that WWE would rather have a top face who gets a mixed reaction but makes more money and sells more tickets over a top face who gets a near unanimous positive reaction but draws less.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Oct 22, 2013 15:46:57 GMT -5
The thing is, they keep Cena face because it hasn't done anything bad to the revenue and business. He sells a lot of merchandise, the people pay to see him that both cheer and boo him. Why turn him heel? To please the smarks who in turn are only going to cheer his new heel character? Than the kids boo him and stop buying his merchandise. We're back to square one. It's not like their losing money because Cena's been face for so many years. Sure, people are going to bitch about his character and how it's stale or corny. But, in the end of the day the WWE is a business, and they run on money. And if their getting the money from the kids who love him and the smarks who hate him, their going to keep doing it. There's no reason to turn him heel. Will it be a fresh change, yes. Is it necessary, no. Until they begin to lose revenue (they got 480 million last year, so there's nothing to worry about) than Cena will continue be the top face of the company. You don't don't turn him heel. You just have him stop doing a lot of the irritating things he does. I want to like his character since I think in real life he's a great guy. But he's like a talented actor cast in a horribly cliche role. I'm BEGGING for a rewrite.
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Post by gnr123 on Oct 22, 2013 16:39:50 GMT -5
The thing is, they keep Cena face because it hasn't done anything bad to the revenue and business. He sells a lot of merchandise, the people pay to see him that both cheer and boo him. Why turn him heel? To please the smarks who in turn are only going to cheer his new heel character? Than the kids boo him and stop buying his merchandise. We're back to square one. It's not like their losing money because Cena's been face for so many years. Sure, people are going to bitch about his character and how it's stale or corny. But, in the end of the day the WWE is a business, and they run on money. And if their getting the money from the kids who love him and the smarks who hate him, their going to keep doing it. There's no reason to turn him heel. Will it be a fresh change, yes. Is it necessary, no. Until they begin to lose revenue (they got 480 million last year, so there's nothing to worry about) than Cena will continue be the top face of the company. Yep. This has been the answer to “why don’t they turn Cena heel or at least alter his character?” for years now. At this point when people ask the question I just assume it’s meant to be rhetorical because they must know the answer by now. It probably wouldn’t be too difficult to get more of the people booing Cena to start cheering. Stop making the childish jokes, be more serious, wear less gaudy merchandise, stop making the Superman comebacks, lose more often. If he does all that he’d almost certainly be booed by less male adults than he is now. But to the demographic he makes the most money from he then goes from a colorful larger than life superhero who they can always rely on to overcome the odds to a darker, less jokey babyface who wins some and loses some. In other words, he becomes a CM Punk or a Randy Orton (when he was a babyface). A guy they’ll cheer for but won’t necessarily be so quick to beg their parents to take them to shows to see or to buy their merchandise. It comes down to the fact that WWE would rather have a top face who gets a mixed reaction but makes more money and sells more tickets over a top face who gets a near unanimous positive reaction but draws less. The thing is though, he's not suppose to lose more often. He's the top face, he's supposed to be booked the strongest out of the entire company. In fact I'll say he's lost more often than Hogan and Austin did combined during their top face runs, yet people love Hogan and Austin but hate Cena. The booking should never be a problem with the smarks, because if you look back through history you'll see that every top face was booked very strong and hardly ever lost. I don't understand why Cena should be any different. He's going to make the childish jokes and wear the colored shirts because that's what a majority of his fanbase is catered to. He's going to make the comebacks because that's a part of his moveset and his character.
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Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Oct 22, 2013 16:58:07 GMT -5
Has there ever been any other kind of TV show where the main character has been actively hated by a consistent number (50%+ in many cases) of viewers for at least seven years? It boggles the mind.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Oct 22, 2013 17:00:41 GMT -5
the sad thing is, I think that WWE truly believes people's problem with Cena is just resentment. part of the reason they never fixed him is that they never wanted to admit that their booking was the problem. it's a classic case of psychological deflection, but on a company-wide basis. Part and parcel of Vince's whole weird Alpha Male deal. It's been stated numerous times how he really doesn't get how people might not relate to the all powerful ubermensch.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Oct 22, 2013 17:42:34 GMT -5
Didn't Michael Cole once say that people who hated Cena weren't "true fans" of WWE? It's like there's a massive schism between Cena the person and Cena the character. They show all these videos of his charity work and stuff that indicate that he's a genuinely good person, then he gets on TV and acts/is booked like he's the most annoying douche on the planet. when he's doing charity work he's meeting with sick kids. When he's wrestling he's facing vicious, arrogant SOBs who want to hurt him
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Oct 22, 2013 17:51:58 GMT -5
If this PPV doesn't end with Cena hugging Triple H while holding both titles I'll be sad. Let's stop playing around with Orton. The true face of WWE is back so let the king have his throne. Actually I think Bryan and Cena will both win titles and Orton will go after Cena to allow WWE to try to push Cena over Bryan only this time around Cena will try to do something to stop it
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Post by molson5 on Oct 22, 2013 19:02:15 GMT -5
I think if prior to '03 someone had the idea for a character whom the kids and women loved and spent money to see win, and the older fans hated and spent money to see lose, we'd all see that as really fun, interesting booking. It's like shades of the Hart Foundation around '97 except on a bigger scale. There's so much you can do with a character like that. And sure, they've done most of it, and it's latest longer than just about anything else in wrestling history, (which means its probably gone on too long), but I think it was pretty modern and original thinking, and it did work.
How many times have we seen the WWE be too stuck in the past - a heel starts to get cheered, so they turn him face, and then he immediately falls flat. It's because the fans enjoyed that heel character, and they didn't want him to change. It's really not some disaster in 2013 if a guy who is booked as a "heel" is cheered. With Cena though, they've just refused to do the traditional wrestling thing and turn him, and it's created some really interesting results, the likes of which we've never really seen before, at least for this long at the top of the card. If they turned him in 2005 or 2006 when the turns started, he probably would have gone back and forth 5 or 6 times in the years since, just like everybody else. I'm kind of a fan of the unique way they've handled this instead.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Oct 22, 2013 20:51:56 GMT -5
Didn't Michael Cole once say that people who hated Cena weren't "true fans" of WWE? It's like there's a massive schism between Cena the person and Cena the character. They show all these videos of his charity work and stuff that indicate that he's a genuinely good person, then he gets on TV and acts/is booked like he's the most annoying douche on the planet. when he's doing charity work he's meeting with sick kids. When he's wrestling he's facing vicious, arrogant SOBs who want to hurt him And the fact that people cheer those kinds of guys over Cena means WWE needs to change his presentation. Something is seriously disconnected here.
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