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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Nov 13, 2013 23:10:08 GMT -5
That's why I empathize with Vince/Steph/WWE Creative/whoever's calling the shots, because looking at this influx of threads about who should be pushed and who was a bust/missed boat, it's got to be the most frustrating thing for everybody in charge of what we see.
We're so quick to jump on Vince for allegedly micromanaging and putting on TV mostly what he wants to watch, but who would do otherwise in that position? What I imagine must suck for a booker/writer in this business is that there's no freedom to creatively indulge oneself.
You have to go with what crowds demand, I get that, but if you don't see eye-to-eye with them and would rather push Superstar B, who fits the stories you want to tell, as opposed to Superstar A who's getting the pops, well, you're just outta luck if you want to make money and also don't want fans biting your head off online. Who the hell would want to write under that environment?
If I were working for WWE, it wouldn't be the wrath of Vince I was worried about, but rather the wrath of the WWE Universe/IWC/wrestling fans as a whole. I don't think I could handle that shit.
In ANY other medium, be it video game development, music, film (either indie or big studio), comics and literature, you can allow yourself at least some wiggle room to be weird and express yourself, to make your hero any sort of way you see fit and dictate the plot/tone the way you'd like. Not to much in wrestling, and what makes it so much worse is how there's so many subgroups in wrestling that want different things.
People always say "I just don't want to be bored", but ain't nobody gonna give you a general concensus on what'll excite them.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Nov 13, 2013 23:15:23 GMT -5
I don't know, it honestly doesn't seem like they're worried about what the fans want at all really; they'll write what they want/are told and push whomever accordingly regardless if the last decade or so is any indication.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Nov 13, 2013 23:20:19 GMT -5
I mentioned it elsewhere... I wouldn't wish a WWE Creative job on my worst enemies. Not just for the criticism, but the actual workload. I mean, name one other TV series that, in an "ideal" situation, would require you to write compelling storylines for 50+ characters at once, all year round.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Nov 13, 2013 23:23:35 GMT -5
I don't know, it honestly doesn't seem like they're worried about what the fans want at all really; they'll write what they want/are told and push whomever accordingly regardless if the last decade or so is any indication. Yeah, but whether or not WWE cares what fans want isn't really my argument. It doesn't matter what WWE wants to book, they're still in kind of a crappy position when it comes to whatever concepts they hold dear and what they "have" to put out in order to stay afloat, or at least to somehow keep an unpleasable fanbase semi-satisfied. I know it might sound preposterous that I'm empathizing with what a lot of fans immediantly see as a billion dollar company, but I'm mostly looking at WWE here as just a creative force. (Save the snarky jokes, I mean that in the literal sense.) |
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SEAN CARLESS
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Nov 13, 2013 23:25:12 GMT -5
That's why I empathize with Vince/Steph/WWE Creative/whoever's calling the shots, because looking at this influx of threads about who should be pushed and who was a bust/missed boat, it's got to be the most frustrating thing for everybody in charge of what we see. We're so quick to jump on Vince for allegedly micromanaging and putting on TV mostly what he wants to watch, but who would do otherwise in that position? The things I imagine must such for a booker/writer in this business is that there's no freedom to creatively indulge. You have to go with what crowds demand, I get that, but if you don't see eye-to-eye with them, well, you're just outta luck if you want to draw crowds and also don't want fans biting your head off online. Who the hell would want to write under that environment? If I were working for WWE, it wouldn't be the wrath of Vince I was worried about, but rather the wrath of the WWE Universe/IWC/wrestling fans as a whole. I don't think I could handle that shit. Allegedly micromanaging? And a person with a good sense of business over personal preference would. You don't need to think the Big Mac is the best tasting hamburger at McDonalds if you're their CEO, but if people are buying it, you don't try and force an item you prefer in lieu. Wrestling is a supply & demand business. We demand, they supply. They should push who gets cheered first and foremost, and who makes the most money. You don't blatantly reject new ideas and fresh directions because you're an out of touch old man with his finger no longer on the pulse -- and you surround yourself with people who tell you that your senile and antiquated ideas are awesome and not terrible and detrimental. So, ya, it's not really that tough if you humble yourself. I personally think Justin Bieber is garbage as a human being and a terrible, manufactured, talentless hack. But if I ran a studio I'd see that my preferences are irrelevant, and that I don't have to like it to know there's a huge audience for it, and huge money to be made. I certainly wouldn't shelve the guy to push the type of acts (no longer in vogue) that I prefer. That would just be insane. Yet, he does it. And worse yet : he's allowed to, thanks to the manufactured illusion that WWE is a public company, and not that only 30% of shares are even available. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2013 23:30:07 GMT -5
I'd love to write for the WWE, I'd tell Vince to f*** off Monday-Thursday of my first week, I figure that crazy mofo would promote me to head writer on Friday.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Nov 13, 2013 23:32:48 GMT -5
That's why I empathize with Vince/Steph/WWE Creative/whoever's calling the shots, because looking at this influx of threads about who should be pushed and who was a bust/missed boat, it's got to be the most frustrating thing for everybody in charge of what we see. We're so quick to jump on Vince for allegedly micromanaging and putting on TV mostly what he wants to watch, but who would do otherwise in that position? The things I imagine must such for a booker/writer in this business is that there's no freedom to creatively indulge. You have to go with what crowds demand, I get that, but if you don't see eye-to-eye with them, well, you're just outta luck if you want to draw crowds and also don't want fans biting your head off online. Who the hell would want to write under that environment? If I were working for WWE, it wouldn't be the wrath of Vince I was worried about, but rather the wrath of the WWE Universe/IWC/wrestling fans as a whole. I don't think I could handle that shit. Allegedly micromanaging? And a person with a good sense of business over personal preference would. You don't need to think the Big Mac is the best tasting hamburger at McDonalds if you're their CEO, but if people are buying it, you don't try and force an item you prefer in lieu. Wrestling is a supply & demand business. We demand, they supply. They should push who gets cheered first and foremost, and who makes the most money. You don't blatantly reject new ideas and fresh directions because you're an out of touch old man with his finger no longer on the pulse -- and you surround yourself with people who tell you that your senile and antiquated ideas are awesome and not terrible and detrimental. So, ya, it's not really that tough if you humble yourself. I personally think Justin Bieber is garbage as a human being and a terrible, manufactured, talentless hack. But if I ran a studio I'd see that my preferences are irrelevant, and that I don't have to like it to know there's a huge audience for it, and huge money to be made. I certainly wouldn't shelve the guy to push the type of acts (no longer in vogue) that I prefer. That would just be insane. Yet, he does it. And worse yet : he's allowed to, thanks to the manufactured illusion that WWE is a public company, and not that only 30% of shares are even available. Wrestling is weird- it's a hybrid of the very supply and demand you mentioned mixed with various creative visions. But I'd imagine the latter is too strong a pull for anyone to completely humble themselves and push out anything they'd enjoy seeing in lieu of checking off all the demos that'll make them the most money. Now granted, that might be a good approach to booking (if a bit bloodless), but I don't think anybody in wrestling's ever had that amount of willpower. And considering some of the ideas that out of touch old man apparently left on the cutting room floor, he might have a little more willpower than some fans think. Whereas someone like, say, Vince Russo, has none. I'm not proposing any solution here, I'm mostly just lamenting on how in wrestling you might have to check some of your creativity at the door to earn a good reputation. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2013 23:39:13 GMT -5
Wrestling is weird. It's like drafting in sports. Sometimes the guys with the most potential to be great are projected to be in the 7th round of the draft and not the 1st round. Roman Reigns seems to be the most popular person from The Shield over here and he never had the hype of Ambrose or Rollins. Then again remember when they tried pushing Mason Ryan over Ryder and how that backfired?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2013 23:47:44 GMT -5
I'm not proposing any solution here, I'm mostly just lamenting on how in wrestling you might have to check some of your creativity at the door to earn a good reputation. That's not something special to wrestling. As far as the people who work under him and the wrestlers who have to act this stuff out, I feel for them. I just literally don't understand people feeling sympathy for Vince himself or the high rollers in the company who call the shots. It's not that I think you're wrong to feel that way because what kind of an asshole would I be to believe that? It's just those types of feelings for this type of company do not compute. I'm not going to act like compromising my creativity for the money they make would be a horrible burden. I wish I was in the position they were in where no matter the shitty images my project beams onto your screen, you're going to watch it and it's going to make millions. |
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Nov 13, 2013 23:50:12 GMT -5
It's their own fault. The WWE is its own star: people go to see a WWE show because of the company and the brand and because it's the only wrestling show on that scale. But while watching, the audience has been trained to cheer for individual wrestlers, and they have been taught that their input affects those wrestlers and not anyone else. Sit on your hands when Wrestler X is there, no matter what's going on in the plot, and absolutely everyone will just take it as a comment on Wrestler X... not whoever wrote the scene in the first place.
Even worse, the WWE will often put people out there without any story at all, just doing their thing. So, we're trained to care about individual talent, and not the show as a whole. So already, they're stepping on their own toes with telling any kind of story.
And, there's a mismatch between WHY anyone cares and then HOW they've been taught to care. First and foremost, you go to a WWE show because it's the damn WWE. The spectacle. But then when you get there, you have been trained to cheer because I Like That Guy; not I Like What That Guy's Doing Right Now. And you can't tell any stories if you just have a bunch of That Guys.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Nov 13, 2013 23:51:41 GMT -5
Wrestling is weird. It's like drafting in sports. Sometimes the guys with the most potential to be great are projected to be in the 7th round of the draft and not the 1st round. Roman Reigns seems to be the most popular person from The Shield over here and he never had the hype of Ambrose or Rollins. Oh, that's different. That's just because some people HATE Rollins and (especially) Ambrose solely BECAUSE of the hype they had. It's just pendulums. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2013 0:01:52 GMT -5
Wrestling is weird. It's like drafting in sports. Sometimes the guys with the most potential to be great are projected to be in the 7th round of the draft and not the 1st round. Roman Reigns seems to be the most popular person from The Shield over here and he never had the hype of Ambrose or Rollins. Oh, that's different. That's just because some people HATE Rollins and (especially) Ambrose solely BECAUSE of the hype they had. It's just pendulums. Yeah but still guys with first overall hype like Lesnar, Punk, Bryan, The Rock all have been success stories while guys with late first or second round or later hype like Batista, Cena, Stone Cold Steve Austin have been success stories Edit: Crosby and LeBron James have been the most hated player after the minute they were drafted |
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Nov 14, 2013 0:06:42 GMT -5
I'm not proposing any solution here, I'm mostly just lamenting on how in wrestling you might have to check some of your creativity at the door to earn a good reputation. That's not something special to wrestling. As far as the people who work under him and the wrestlers who have to act this stuff out, I feel for them. I just literally don't understand people feeling sympathy for Vince himself or the high rollers in the company who call the shots. It's not that I think you're wrong to feel that way because what kind of an asshole would I be to believe that? It's just those types of feelings for this type of company do not compute. I'm not going to act like compromising my creativity for the money they make would be a horrible burden. I wish I was in the position they were in where no matter the shitty images my project beams onto your screen, you're going to watch it and it's going to make millions. Here's how it computes for me: in almost any other genre, an artist will unfortunately find they have to sacrifice their creativity to placate whatever a major studio or a record label wants in order to be sold to the fanbase of choice. What's unique to wrestling is that everybody from the top on down has to sacrifice in order to placate a very vocal fanbase with various divisions. And as much as I love cash, I still would not find that scenario appealing. And believe me, I'm not blowing off any worker that's not happy about their character or position on the card, but for me it cuts both ways. |
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Nov 14, 2013 0:08:19 GMT -5
It's their own fault. The WWE is its own star: people go to see a WWE show because of the company and the brand and because it's the only wrestling show on that scale. But while watching, the audience has been trained to cheer for individual wrestlers, and they have been taught that their input affects those wrestlers and not anyone else. Sit on your hands when Wrestler X is there, no matter what's going on in the plot, and absolutely everyone will just take it as a comment on Wrestler X... not whoever wrote the scene in the first place. Even worse, the WWE will often put people out there without any story at all, just doing their thing. So, we're trained to care about individual talent, and not the show as a whole. So already, they're stepping on their own toes with telling any kind of story. And, there's a mismatch between WHY anyone cares and then HOW they've been taught to care. First and foremost, you go to a WWE show because it's the damn WWE. The spectacle. But then when you get there, you have been trained to cheer because I Like That Guy; not I Like What That Guy's Doing Right Now. And you can't tell any stories if you just have a bunch of That Guys. ...that's kinda how it's been since 1901. |
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Post by Brother Nero....Wolfe on Nov 14, 2013 0:09:26 GMT -5
The only reason Vince isn't allowed to express his creative self is that his creative self kind of sucks. Actually, I take that back--he doesn't seem to be having much of an issue expressing his creative self regardless considering things like Del Rio's newfound aggression(that has got to be on purpose) and horrible writing.
Plus one thing I got no sympathy for is the WWE's complete disregard for continuity and narrative sense. Do they want to change who the face and the heel in the story are? Do they want to change who they are pushing? That's all fine, but justify it within the story. And I don't just mean handwaving the plot away like with Big Show's contract, I mean justify it in a way that makes it clear you give a damn about the plot or else the viewer isn't going to. If I happened to be a wrestling writer, I have no doubt the IWC would hate me--I love the corny crap they do. But I would have a clean conscience because my corny crap would be self-consistent. Every single thing that happened on the show, every sudden swerve, would have a meaning.
I honestly don't fault them too much for their decisions on who to push. I fault them for going from point A to point C ignoring point B, which is narrative.
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saintpat
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Post by saintpat on Nov 14, 2013 0:32:46 GMT -5
Just imagine how the guy that booked the whole Tensai debut and angle going forward felt when the "Albert" chants started.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Nov 14, 2013 1:34:29 GMT -5
That's why I empathize with Vince/Steph/WWE Creative/whoever's calling the shots, because looking at this influx of threads about who should be pushed and who was a bust/missed boat, it's got to be the most frustrating thing for everybody in charge of what we see. We're so quick to jump on Vince for allegedly micromanaging and putting on TV mostly what he wants to watch, but who would do otherwise in that position? What I imagine must suck for a booker/writer in this business is that there's no freedom to creatively indulge oneself. You have to go with what crowds demand, I get that, but if you don't see eye-to-eye with them and would rather push Superstar B, who fits the stories you want to tell, as opposed to Superstar A who's getting the pops, well, you're just outta luck if you want to make money and also don't want fans biting your head off online. Who the hell would want to write under that environment? If I were working for WWE, it wouldn't be the wrath of Vince I was worried about, but rather the wrath of the WWE Universe/IWC/wrestling fans as a whole. I don't think I could handle that shit. In ANY other medium, be it video game development, music, film (either indie or big studio), comics and literature, you can allow yourself at least some wiggle room to be weird and express yourself, to make your hero any sort of way you see fit and dictate the plot/tone the way you'd like. Not to much in wrestling, and what makes it so much worse is how there's so many subgroups in wrestling that want different things. People always say "I just don't want to be bored", but ain't nobody gonna give you a general concensus on what'll excite them. I mostly see where you're coming from, but tell Brian Bendis fans were giving him any kind of wiggle room towards the end of his run on Avengers  |
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Nov 14, 2013 1:36:07 GMT -5
I mentioned it elsewhere... I wouldn't wish a WWE Creative job on my worst enemies. Not just for the criticism, but the actual workload. I mean, name one other TV series that, in an "ideal" situation, would require you to write compelling storylines for 50+ characters at once, all year round. I've heard that they work like 70 hour weeks fairly often and only make like 20-30K a year for the most part. and that's not even including all the travel. |
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SEAN CARLESS
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Nov 14, 2013 1:36:11 GMT -5
Just imagine how the guy that booked the whole Tensai debut and angle going forward felt when the "Albert" chants started. Stupid for basically keeping him looking exactly like Albert ...only in red underoos and looking like he fell asleep on a newspaper? |
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Post by Lance Uppercut on Nov 14, 2013 1:43:57 GMT -5
True. But I'm looking at it purely from a viewers standpoint.
Wrestling, by it's nature, is designed to constantly put someone over. By that merit, your favorites, villains and heroes, eventually have to end their careers destroyed or humiliated on their way out or else they're being selfish.
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