Toates Madhackrviper
King Koopa
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This avatar is so far out of date I might as well stick with it forever now.
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Post by Toates Madhackrviper on Nov 19, 2013 0:54:04 GMT -5
I see a lot of talk about people hating on a lot of guy's finishers for not looking real or impactful enough or like it "really hurt" the person who takes it.
It seems almost any finisher that is unique and separates a guy from the rest of the roster is considered "bad" for this reason, I notice it a LOT.
But it gets on my nerves because personally... I think "bad" finishers are fine. For one reason. Variety. Quite frankly I'll accept any type of move if it adds variety to the types of finishers out there. I like most guys on the roster to have a unique finisher that isn't like anyone elses. Its way better than everyone on the roster having a damn spinebuster.
And if you take out all the finishers people see as "bad" there' a very limited amount left over for people to do and variety will be lost.
Finishers are meant to be unique. Finishers are meant to be the signature of a particular wrestler and set them apart. Finishers are supposed to become over because of the overness of the wrestler, and rarely hold back a wrestler all on their own (if ever?). Moves like the 619 are atrocious when it comes to realism, but are over and pop the crowd every time. I think thats the important thing.
Basically I think every wrestler should just have a move that is mostly unique to them (SOME repetition is fine, like more than one guy using the spear is fine) and if the wrestler gets over than the move will get over and it won't matter if it "looks realistic".
Maybe its just about how I view wrestling. Truly I don't care much about realism in wrestling. Wrestling is a TV show to me, i suspend disbelief for unrealistic things if they work within the internal logic of the program just like I would for any other television show. So if a move is sold as being a dangerous impactful move in the hands of a certain wrestler I'll buy it as such. Same reason I don't have a problem with some moves being an unimportant signature transitional move in the hands of one wrestler and a deadly finisher in the hands of another. I dont have any problem buying WWE's reality when it comes to this. And I'd rather the variety than have the WWE stick only to "realistic" finishers. So things like The Big Ending can stay.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Nov 19, 2013 0:58:07 GMT -5
My problem comes when a guy does a move with a similar set up to their finisher but looks way better. Magnus over in TNA has this problem. He hits this swank looking Michinoku Driver while making his comeback only for his finisher to have the same setup but look worse. It's just silly.
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Post by Starshine on Nov 19, 2013 1:02:55 GMT -5
My problem with finishers in general is that they're usually built up as a one hit KO thing which almost guarantees a win. I can forgive them for doing this with either strength based, or highly athletic moves. But when you build up for example Dean Ambrose's headlock driver as being this devastating move witch always gets him wins, I wonder why no one else just uses it as well.
I like the idea of finishing moves being a signature of the user, but I wished they put more emphasis on guys building up to it instead of doing a bunch of signature moves before hitting the big one. It makes everything up to that point feel kind of meaningless.
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Toates Madhackrviper
King Koopa
Is owed an Admin life-debt.
This avatar is so far out of date I might as well stick with it forever now.
Posts: 10,737
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Post by Toates Madhackrviper on Nov 19, 2013 1:12:21 GMT -5
My problem with finishers in general is that they're usually built up as a one hit KO thing which almost guarantees a win. I can forgive them for doing this with either strength based, or highly athletic moves. But when you build up for example Dean Ambrose's headlock driver as being this devastating move witch always gets him wins, I wonder why no one else just uses it as well. I like the idea of finishing moves being a signature of the user, but I wished they put more emphasis on guys building up to it instead of doing a bunch of signature moves before hitting the big one. It makes everything up to that point feel kind of meaningless. I feel most of this but my thing with the fact that other people don't use say Ambrose's headlock driver is fairly simple to me. Ive always just felt that part of the internal logic of wrestling is that finishers are a move that are deadly in the hands of the wrestler that use it. It doesn't make any sense outside of the "universe" of wrestling, but thats alright with me. I can certainly understand if you emphasize the "worked sport" aspect of wrestling more than I do that not being acceptable for you, but for me it falls into the territory of the willing suspension of disbelief I apply while watching wrestling.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2013 1:36:27 GMT -5
I think a finisher should look stronger than other moves someone uses. If they aren't stronger, why are they winning? The person has mastered all those other same trademark moves we've seen them use every match the last 250 times we've seen them, yet those moves don't win.
If it doesn't look stronger, it should be visually appealing. Many finishers neither look strong NOR are visually appealing, there's no upside to them at all, making me question why they were selected.
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Bad Moon
Unicron
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Post by Bad Moon on Nov 19, 2013 1:47:11 GMT -5
My problem with finishers in general is that they're usually built up as a one hit KO thing which almost guarantees a win. I can forgive them for doing this with either strength based, or highly athletic moves. But when you build up for example Dean Ambrose's headlock driver as being this devastating move witch always gets him wins, I wonder why no one else just uses it as well. It's not about how good the move is, it's about how well the move is done. Look at Cena. Anyone can do fireman's carry throw, it's one of the simplest moves in wrestling, but in kayfabe he's so good at it, he can get pinfalls with it. The reason other people don't try it is because Cena does it better and they know it wouldn't work for them. People have gotten clothelines and elbow drops and side kicks over as finishers, it can work with anything as long as you establish it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2013 1:59:17 GMT -5
A good finisher should look like it's hard or looks really cool (shooting star press). Imagine CM Punk vs. John Cena at MITB 2011 if Punk's finisher was the Overdrive. The match would be great still but it just feels a bit off that a overdrive kept the near unstoppable Cena.
Or another great example is Daniel Bryan vs. Cena at Summer Slam 2013. We never seen the flying knee's to the face before in the WWE but when he debuted it looked brutal and felt like a believable finish. A believable finish against Cena!
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Chip
Hank Scorpio
Slam Jam Death.
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Post by Chip on Nov 19, 2013 2:22:43 GMT -5
I have to agree and whilst this will be an unpopular opinion, the Stunner sucked as a finish when it was first introduced. Then he worked on it, executed it faster and more animated and now it's considered one of the best finishers of all time.
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Post by Straight Edge Scrotum on Nov 19, 2013 3:54:43 GMT -5
It's not about how good the move is, it's about how well the move is done. Look at Cena. Anyone can do fireman's carry throw, it's one of the simplest moves in wrestling, but in kayfabe he's so good at it, he can get pinfalls with it. The reason other people don't try it is because Cena does it better and they know it wouldn't work for them. People have gotten clothelines and elbow drops and side kicks over as finishers, it can work with anything as long as you establish it. For me, it's that right there. Any move can look good if it's established and the right person as pulling it off.
Case in point...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2013 3:56:31 GMT -5
It's not about how good the move is, it's about how well the move is done. Look at Cena. Anyone can do fireman's carry throw, it's one of the simplest moves in wrestling, but in kayfabe he's so good at it, he can get pinfalls with it. The reason other people don't try it is because Cena does it better and they know it wouldn't work for them. People have gotten clothelines and elbow drops and side kicks over as finishers, it can work with anything as long as you establish it. For me, it's that right there. Any move can look good if it's established and the right person as pulling it off.
Case in point...I could honestly watch Hogan drop the leg all day. {Spoiler}BROTHER.
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Post by sdoyle7798 on Nov 19, 2013 4:05:19 GMT -5
For me, it's that right there. Any move can look good if it's established and the right person as pulling it off.
Case in point... I could honestly watch Hogan drop the leg all day. {Spoiler}BROTHER. I dunno if it's the camera angle, but Hogan seemed to get SERIOUS air there. I mean, back in the day, he'd get up pretty good, but this one looks like his gets some extra ups.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2013 4:37:15 GMT -5
Finishers in wrestling don't usually bug me because I have no interest whatsoever in all of my wrestling being real. It works much better for me when I think of it as it's own little comic book universe with it's own rules. I don't care much if Santino's snake puppet is alive and makes him more powerful, or that R-Truth defeats his opponents by giving himself the rock bottom. It's wrestling. Whatever. I often see fans try to argue a move is realistic or try to talk about how deadly it is in a real fight and I feel like they're totally missing the point.
I do like the theory in this thread that wrestlers don't try certain moves because they know it won't work as well for them. As a point of comparison to BJJ, because comparing wrestling to MMA and BJJ seems to quickly becoming my weird little schtick on this board, John Cena's AA looks like an extremely basic move right? So why doesn't everyone do it? Well, over in BJJ competition Roger Gracie was whupping on dude's for years with the cross collar choke. The cross collar choke is one of the first things you learn and is damn hard to hit on anybody with skill. But hey, Roger made a very basic move work for him. But did everyone start regularly beating people with cross chokes? No, because they know they're not Roger Gracie and they haven't worked it the way he has.
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Post by "Gentleman" AJ Powell on Nov 19, 2013 5:59:13 GMT -5
I don't mind weak finishers, as long as they aren't the Overdrive. f*** that move.
Anyway, I always imagined that people who use moves like DDT's etc put a little something extra into them, like they snap back quicker or just put a little extra stank on it, and that's why it's more effective than others who don't know the little thing extra.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Nov 19, 2013 15:36:32 GMT -5
I think a finisher should look stronger than other moves someone uses. If they aren't stronger, why are they winning? The person has mastered all those other same trademark moves we've seen them use every match the last 250 times we've seen them, yet those moves don't win. If it doesn't look stronger, it should be visually appealing. Many finishers neither look strong NOR are visually appealing, there's no upside to them at all, making me question why they were selected. This. Test had the best big boot in the business, and for a 6'8, 280lb guy, he hit an amazing flying elbow. But didn't he mostly use a pumphandle slam as his finisher? During a time when half the roster had a pumphandle based finisher?
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Nov 19, 2013 15:47:46 GMT -5
Okay. What the hell is unrealistic about the 619? He drop toe-holds his opponent into position, then swings around and slams his feet into their face. People say this all the time, and it never made sense.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by mrjl on Nov 19, 2013 18:22:58 GMT -5
I think a finisher should look stronger than other moves someone uses. If they aren't stronger, why are they winning? The person has mastered all those other same trademark moves we've seen them use every match the last 250 times we've seen them, yet those moves don't win. If it doesn't look stronger, it should be visually appealing. Many finishers neither look strong NOR are visually appealing, there's no upside to them at all, making me question why they were selected. This. Test had the best big boot in the business, and for a 6'8, 280lb guy, he hit an amazing flying elbow. But didn't he mostly use a pumphandle slam as his finisher? During a time when half the roster had a pumphandle based finisher? actually the pumphandle was the setup for the flying elbow and they were both mostly phased out when he started using the boot as a finish.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Nov 19, 2013 18:45:39 GMT -5
Okay. What the hell is unrealistic about the 619? He drop toe-holds his opponent into position, then swings around and slams his feet into their face. People say this all the time, and it never made sense. To me it was the fact that during matches, wrestlers would find there way into that position without the drop toehold, when you can watch 1,000 other matches and never see a wrestler fall face first onto the middle rope by accident.
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on Nov 19, 2013 20:33:06 GMT -5
I don't mind finisher as long it looks good and you can see how it's effective. Which is why Hogan leg drop works. He did it well and you can make sense of 300 Pounds crashing down can hurt. Now then you have the Overdrive which I don't know how that hurts and it doesn't look good. I still don't now what is supposed to hurt and now.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2013 21:51:15 GMT -5
I can't not hate a weak finisher, or rather, a weak-looking finisher.
I don't care if your move is the drop toe hold. Make it look rough and that's enough for me. Just to sure not to outshine it with your mid-match moves, else it'll read stupid.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Nov 19, 2013 22:06:01 GMT -5
To me, when a move is a guy's finisher, that means he's the master of the move. That's why it takes the Young Bucks a million Superkicks to win a match while it only takes HBK one to win. The Bucks know the move but they haven't mastered it. HBK has.
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