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Post by Urfarkendarf on Nov 21, 2013 1:02:09 GMT -5
Punk and Danielson have not had that same opportunity since for most of their professional careers, WWE has been the only major player and neither have a lot of experience in other countries. I don't think its fair to put ROH on the same level as WCW/ECW/Japan/Mexico. Bryan's spent plenty of time abroad, working in FMW, NJPW, NOAH, Germany's wXw, and several UK feds. True, I had forgotten about that.
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Bad Moon
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Post by Bad Moon on Nov 21, 2013 1:25:31 GMT -5
Eddie is easily the best of the four, but Bryan and Punk average out better to me. Although I have to say people claiming that Benoit wasn't charismatic are full of shit. He couldn't talk, at all, but that's not the same thing as not being charismatic.
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Essential1
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Post by Essential1 on Nov 21, 2013 2:33:56 GMT -5
Benoit/Guerrero since they both could wrestle with anyone. Punk is great but struggles with less talented wrestlers and Bryan is like a cruiserweight Hulk Hogan with a forced push.
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Yami Daimao
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Post by Yami Daimao on Nov 21, 2013 12:51:13 GMT -5
Can't we just have a Benoit/Guerrero vs. Punk/Bryan tag team match, or better yet, a fatal four way between them, and make everyone happy?
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Post by Hit Girl on Nov 21, 2013 14:26:53 GMT -5
Can't we just have a Benoit/Guerrero vs. Punk/Bryan tag team match, or better yet, a fatal four way between them, and make everyone happy? Benoit was more suited to fatal three-ways.
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Square
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Post by Square on Nov 21, 2013 14:29:06 GMT -5
Eddie Guerrero is one of the biggest reason I'm a fan, however Punk or Bryan haven't killed anybody so them
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2013 14:30:09 GMT -5
Benoit and Guerrero. I like Punk a lot but there's an awful lot about Daniel Bryan which is typically internet 'He's the current fad so OMG he's the best ever, who'll win in a fight Daniel Bryan or every wrestler ever? I say Bryan because he's been popular for a while and is getting a push so he'll definitely be the greatest of all time." It's where the internet lets itself down. I rememeber when Christian was being spoken about in these terms on the basis he was getting a wee push on the back of his Captain Charisma gimmick. Building up guys where it's 'unless you make him world champ we riot' levels, never, ever, ever works out well for anyone. It's why as a collective the internet should not be allowed to have favourites. "It's why as a collective people who use cell phones shouldn't be allowed to have favorites." I want you to read that line and realize how silly it is.
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Turd Ferguson
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Post by Turd Ferguson on Nov 21, 2013 14:32:35 GMT -5
Guerrero was amazingly well rounded everywhere, but Benoit, while an in ring beast, couldn't play any character outside of generic tough guy. Punk and Bryan's versatility put them over the top. This times 10000000. The versatility of both Punk/Bryan puts this duo over the top. And to reference OP's thought of having a Benoit/Guerrero moment at WMXXX, it would make as much sense as having Big E Langston and R-Truth have a moment at the end because they're black. Punk and Bryan are friends and could even be best buddies, but there's little investment there from us. WMXX was the pinnacle (and pretty much the end) of both men's LOOOONG careers. But EEEVEN on top of that, they were the closest of best friends, they were brothers in all but blood, not to mention they came up together in the business. And because they both won, that's why we got that moment. It was both of them having won at Mania, walking out as friends, family, and champions.
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Post by Straight Edge Scrotum on Nov 21, 2013 14:35:25 GMT -5
Benoit and Guerrero. I like Punk a lot but there's an awful lot about Daniel Bryan which is typically internet 'He's the current fad so OMG he's the best ever, who'll win in a fight Daniel Bryan or every wrestler ever? I say Bryan because he's been popular for a while and is getting a push so he'll definitely be the greatest of all time." It's where the internet lets itself down. I rememeber when Christian was being spoken about in these terms on the basis he was getting a wee push on the back of his Captain Charisma gimmick. Building up guys where it's 'unless you make him world champ we riot' levels, never, ever, ever works out well for anyone. It's why as a collective the internet should not be allowed to have favourites. "It's why as a collective people who use cell phones shouldn't be allowed to have favorites." I want you to read that line and realize how silly it is. Shame on you for criticizing the internet.
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Post by corndog on Nov 21, 2013 15:05:02 GMT -5
I actually don't think this is a fair comparison to make. If we call XX Benoit/Guerrero's career high mark, they had already 20 years experience in the business (they both turned 37 that year). They had made names for themselves in other countries, and had been able to ply their craft in other companies that had a high profile. Punk and Danielson have not had that same opportunity since for most of their professional careers, WWE has been the only major player and neither have a lot of experience in other countries. I don't think its fair to put ROH on the same level as WCW/ECW/Japan/Mexico. While I think they can be compared on some levels, just the nature of the business alone is so drastically different that its kind of hard to be fair about it. I think Punk and Bryan will have a more lasting legacy (Im throwing Benoit's heinous acts out the window here) simply because of the time that Punk/Bryan have become world renowned. The exposure is a lot greater and more saturated now than it was for Guererro/Benoit. I think in a few years this comparison will be easier to make. But in terms of wrestling alone, Punk/Danielson do not even come close to Guererro/Benoit at the moment. The diversity in experience that Guererro/Benoit were able to get before that high watermark of XX is incomparable. If we are talking about the actual moment of Guerrero/Benoit, very good point. Many of us watched them throughout WCW and even ECW(most of us aren't Japanese so let's not lie and pretend we watched those matches before we same in WCW and ECW), so it was a great moment to see them main eventing WM XX. It was a big deal to fans who supported them as midcard workers throughout their careers. Unfortunately with the fast pushes to the top, this isn't something you see much anymore, if at all, in the WWE. As far as the workers themselves, I have to say Benoit's lack of any personality at all and the fact that he completely ripped off the Dynamite Kid drags them below Punk/Bryan. Although Guerrero is one my favorites and I did enjoy Benoit's matches. While Punk is the weaker link between him and Bryan. His in ring work isn't as good as the others and I think he has the weakest personality besides Benoit.
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Post by angryfan on Nov 21, 2013 15:13:54 GMT -5
It's not an easy call. Gonna go ahead and start by saying let's not get into personal shots or blanket "you people" kind of statements.
I know we're saying "these two or those two" but let's examine it.
Eddie was almost the perfect storm. I know people can say "oh he didn't draw" as Nash has, but in terms of "what can he bring tot he table", Eddie was as close to a "five tool player" to use a baseball term as one can get.
He could do heel or face. His mic work made people emote, it made them care. He could wrestle with anyone, big or small. He could sell and play the face in peril, but also be a vicious heel.
He could move merchandise. He had the lineage that promoters love to tout.
He had his demons, and I know that there was the whole "being the guy was too much pressure", but I promise you this. If he had been 4 inches taller, Eddie could easily have been where Cena is now.
Benoit could work, I loved watching him work, but the only memorable promo (in a good way) that I remember from him was one in ECW where the whole time he was just rubbing his hands together with this sadistic look on his face as he talked. Extra creepy in hindsight, of course, but he was the kind of guy who needed a manager to do his talking.
Nothing wrong with it, but definitely a detraction.
Punk is gifted on the mic, and plays the smart ass extremely well. He can make you love or hate him, though he's not as versatile as Eddie was (Punk can't do comedy like Eddie could, but few if any can do comedy like Eddie could). In the ring he is a story-teller, and sells very well. He's a smart performer, who does the little things to help you suspend disbelief.
Bryan is a very gifted in ring worker, and his promo skills, while not amazing by any stretch, are solid. Honestly, they're upper midcard mic skills unless he has someone to play off of (he and Kane were magic together). He can be serious, he can be comedic, and he can be face or heel. He works wonderfully in the ring, and can sell extremely well.
Frankly, Bryan, with some help on the mic, could evolve into a very rare talent. Punk, as great as he is and as much as I love watching him, has a more limited range in the characters he can play. The ones in his range he nails, but it's not as wide a range as others have.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Nov 21, 2013 15:29:30 GMT -5
Casting Bryan as an internet favorite while ignoring Benoit was too is a lil silly.
If anything DB is way more over with casual fans than Chris ever was.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2013 18:11:52 GMT -5
I think Punk's in-ring ability gets slept on just a bit. He's not the athletic marvel Eddie is, and he's not as crisp as Crispen Wah or Daniel Bryan, but the man truly "gets it" in terms of putting on a fantastic match. Not to say the other guys don't, by any means. But, for example, I don't know if Guerrero, Bryan, or Benoit could pull off as great a match as Punk did with Undertaker at Mania 29. So much of how good that match was came down to Punk being Punk. He's kind of a hybrid of "that" type of wrestler (Guerrero/Benoit/Bryan) and a John Cena type of wrestler.
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Post by The Beast Disincarnate on Nov 22, 2013 5:50:53 GMT -5
So that's a poll about who is the most OVERRATED wrestler of all times? ? #blasphemy #controversy
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2013 6:06:38 GMT -5
I'd say of the four, unquestionably the best on the mic is Eddie. Punk probably has a better voice for it, but Eddie was great at weaving a story into every word and really making most everything he said serve some larger point while Punk is prone to wandering wildly off topic or fumbling his words a good bit. Of course, both of them are leagues ahead of Benoit, and Punk is while I don't think quite as fluid a speaker as Bryan or as focused certainly a hell of a lot more confident doing it than he is, and that counts for a lot.
Ring-wise... I think I have to give the overall advantage of the four to Bryan. I'd probably call Punk the worst of the four in the ring - he's certainly damn competent, but I'd never say he's at all wowed me based solely on his own performance or that he can carry people or anything, and I have an issue with him that his offense often seems to have no rhyme or reason to it beyond just what he thinks looks cool - but it's not like saying someone's worse in the ring than Daniel Bryan, Eddie Guerrero, or Chris Benoit is an insult and there are still tons of people that Punk is much better than. So that leaves the other three to consider, where with Benoit I often got bored with him honestly just because he tended to work pretty much the same exact way with any given opponent. Hell, he faced Edge so much in 2004 and 2005 I just plain started changing the channel on it every week because they were having the exact same match beat for beat with basically no variations. I could to a second predict when Edge was going to spear him out of the ring even with how often the two of them did that spot. Eddie on the other hand was more versatile, and I'm hard pressed to think of any matches of his I'd outright call terrible or anything, but I'm also not exactly immediately coming up with that many all time classics he had that weren't gimmick matches or something. Which is certainly a respectable niche, but by comparison Bryan just plain kills it in the ring and is a wrestling machine and there are very few matches of his I can't really say something or other positive about. And those are mostly his ones with Orton.
It is funny that I can think of one match from each of the given pairs that was highly disappointing (specifically, One Night Stand 2005, which is just mediocre, and Money in the Bank 2012, which I thought was complete shit). But, most Benoit / Eddie and Punk / Bryan matches are damn fine, so not holding a one off bad showing between each of those pairs against them.
Anyway, I'd guess pound for pound, I'd have to give it to Punk and Bryan as the more talented pair, but that's mostly Benoit dragging Eddie down.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Nov 22, 2013 7:20:13 GMT -5
So that's a poll about who is the most OVERRATED wrestler of all times? ? #blasphemy #controversy HOW DARE YOU #hashtags
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Post by Medicinal Thunder Liger on Nov 22, 2013 7:42:06 GMT -5
Eddie Bryan Benoit Punk
as I see it.
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