Heartbreaker
King Koopa
Is actually Bindi Irwin
RIP Punk's media scrum, Page 54, Muffins, Biting People Bad™ (2022 - 2022)
Posts: 11,846
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Post by Heartbreaker on Dec 7, 2013 11:28:13 GMT -5
If you put Nattie or Tamina Snuka in a match where they can be allowed to stretch out and actually tell a story you might wind up with something a lot better than the average Divas match. And I REALLY loathe WWE calling their female athletes "divas". Again, that's no better than what Moolah and her protégés were doing to women's wrestling. Ages ago I found out about the things Moolah did and my god, they were ****ed up...
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Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Dec 7, 2013 11:37:57 GMT -5
If you put Nattie or Tamina Snuka in a match where they can be allowed to stretch out and actually tell a story you might wind up with something a lot better than the average Divas match. And I REALLY loathe WWE calling their female athletes "divas". Again, that's no better than what Moolah and her protégés were doing to women's wrestling. Ages ago I found out about the things Moolah did and my god, they were ****ed up... Her effect on the craft of pro wrestling by itself is enough to discredit her. What she actually did to her students, however, is enough to send her one a one way ticket to hell, if one is inclined to believe in the concept of heaven and hell.
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ratetankmark
Samurai Cop
Equalist Lex Luthor
RIP Rik Mayall, you blimmen genius - Ria Vandervis on Rik Mayall
Posts: 2,426
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Post by ratetankmark on Dec 7, 2013 11:49:25 GMT -5
If you put Nattie or Tamina Snuka in a match where they can be allowed to stretch out and actually tell a story you might wind up with something a lot better than the average Divas match. And I REALLY loathe WWE calling their female athletes "divas". Again, that's no better than what Moolah and her protégés were doing to women's wrestling. Ages ago I found out about the things Moolah did and my god, they were ****ed up... I remember hearing about some things but I forgot them, didn't she turn them into prostitutes or something similar?
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repomark
Unicron
For Mash Get Smash
Posts: 3,074
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Post by repomark on Dec 7, 2013 12:05:30 GMT -5
I have not heard these Moolah stories - what exactly is she meant to have done? Doesn't sound good anyway from what people are saying.
Back to the original post, I think many people have hit the nail on the head in that Women's wrestling is where it is because a lot of people have been hired based purely on the fact they look like a model and nothing to do with the fact they can work. The other issue is that very rarely are there compelling angles that WWE invest proper time in to make us care about the Women who are wrestling. Finally, when we are actually presented with a Divas match very rarely is it given decent time to allow them to tell a compelling story in the ring.
If you go back (only looking at WWE) there have been excellent female workers. Alundra Blayze stands out, and she specifically requested WWE bring in Japanese wrestlers for her to compete against with excellent results. Trish Stratus by the time she retired was an excellent worker, and her feud with Mickie James was probably one of the best female angles they have ever done. Victoria is another who was excellent in the ring, and Jazz I also thought could actually go. Kharma is an example of what could have been as well.
There are exceptions to the rule, and I think AJ is also pretty decent in the ring now. However, if they are to make the Divas division more than just a toilet break every week then they need to start building actual stars with charisma rather than just a pretty smile, and ensuring those with wrestling ability are given in ring time to showcase that ability.
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Heartbreaker
King Koopa
Is actually Bindi Irwin
RIP Punk's media scrum, Page 54, Muffins, Biting People Bad™ (2022 - 2022)
Posts: 11,846
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Post by Heartbreaker on Dec 7, 2013 12:15:23 GMT -5
For those wondering about the Moolah stories: She would sell her wrestling students to men (I believe wrestlers) and most of them didn't realise and/or got raped. She scammed women out of money when it came to payments for training or working a match I think. She also got some women blacklisted from various territories and promotions. It was a while ago that I read about it. There was a massive thread in the (w)Rest of Wrestling section.
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Renslayer
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
every time i come around your city...
Posts: 17,282
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Post by Renslayer on Dec 7, 2013 12:52:20 GMT -5
Even the best wrestlers would struggle if they only had three minutes a night, a cut in training & not much support from the bosses.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2013 13:36:27 GMT -5
Women's wrestling is still a novelty designed to give male fans the diversion of seeing scantily clad chicks instead of dudes in their underwear all the time. They don't have to be any good.
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Post by Old Jack Burton on Dec 7, 2013 13:44:13 GMT -5
Watch women's matches outside of RAW and you may change your opinion a bit.
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Post by Todd Pettengill on Dec 7, 2013 16:01:43 GMT -5
It's funny, because I got into watching some WOW the other night (because I randomly thought of Slam Dunk). The WOW girls were better than the current WWE Divas.
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Post by onetruemisfit on Dec 7, 2013 16:03:25 GMT -5
Because Vince likes it sloppy?.....
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Post by Dave the Dave on Dec 7, 2013 16:07:32 GMT -5
Even Shimmer shows, women just aren't as athletic. I'm not being a chauvinist, it's just the best female wrestler( Del Rey) is as good as a pretty good male wrestler.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Dec 7, 2013 16:50:57 GMT -5
Women's wrestling is still a novelty designed to give male fans the diversion of seeing scantily clad chicks instead of dudes in their underwear all the time. They don't have to be any good. When it was actually financially viable with the DVD's, calendars, magazines, posters etc. in the 90's/early 2000's the model at least made sense, albeit frustrating for obvious sexist reasons. However, it, in its current incarnation, serves no purpose, bombs in the ratings, has zero monetary value, and gets mocked or jeered by the viewing audience. Therefore, since the former is no longer an option due to the nature of today's family friendly product, WWE should abandon the current structure and actually give the women time, characters, and breathing room to get over/perform, or just incorporate them into other facets of the show, like managers, valets, etc. "the Divas" as is, is a failed concept, and needs to be restructured/outright changed.
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Post by Straight Edge Scrotum on Dec 7, 2013 17:06:43 GMT -5
They're too busy making sure they look "pretty".
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
Posts: 23,475
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Post by mizerable on Dec 7, 2013 17:25:19 GMT -5
It really does come down to the booking.
I can only speak as a wrestling fan, but I remember I had someone comment when I was in my late teens, that the women wrestling must have been my favorite part of the show. Now this is when most women's matches consisted of the women getting stripped down to their underwear. I told the person that it was in fact my least favorite part of the show, which puzzled them and they insinuated something about my sexuality.
The thing is, I never watched wrestling for sex. I know that might have been part of their demographic in the Attitude Era (which is pretty lame consider the more extreme real thing you could find online), but wrestling doesn't need to reach out and try to grab me with beautiful women. WCW actually did a better job of this with the Nitro girls...at least they usually didn't expose them to looking ridiculous by putting them in situations where it's clear they have no talent. If someone tries to get me to like someone by having them do something I enjoy doing, but they suck at it...I'm probably not going to continue to want them to do what they're doing. It's like if a beautiful woman made me dinner...and the dinner sucked. Why the hell would I continue to have her cook for me? Because she's hot? That's ridiculous.
As Sean pointed out, most of these woman are undertrained and not given much time to hone their craft. Their storylines too are total garbage. But I don't blame them, because there are women who deserve to be wrestling on TV.
And despite all I have said, it's when you do have female wrestlers who are given good storylines, who are good wrestlers and are given time in the ring to show that...I END UP CARING!! Look at Wrestlemania 22; I can say that I was more pumped for the Trish/Mickie James match than almost any other match (with the exception of Cena/Trips) on the card. Now why is that? Is it because "I'm attracted to the women"? No. They're beautiful, but they're just characters on TV.
Vince needs to quit trying to paint this image of Playboy-Lite that he's been trying for many years with the women's division. I have absolutely no doubt, that if you hire the right people, you give them good stories and the right amount of time in the ring, you WILL get people's attention more than having them aimlessly strut around the ring in some kind of upscale sleazy wet t-shirt contest.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Dec 7, 2013 18:54:32 GMT -5
It really does come down to the booking. I can only speak as a wrestling fan, but I remember I had someone comment when I was in my late teens, that the women wrestling must have been my favorite part of the show. Now this is when most women's matches consisted of the women getting stripped down to their underwear. I told the person that it was in fact my least favorite part of the show, which puzzled them and they insinuated something about my sexuality. The thing is, I never watched wrestling for sex. I know that might have been part of their demographic in the Attitude Era (which is pretty lame consider the more extreme real thing you could find online), but wrestling doesn't need to reach out and try to grab me with beautiful women. WCW actually did a better job of this with the Nitro girls...at least they usually didn't expose them to looking ridiculous by putting them in situations where it's clear they have no talent. If someone tries to get me to like someone by having them do something I enjoy doing, but they suck at it...I'm probably not going to continue to want them to do what they're doing. It's like if a beautiful woman made me dinner...and the dinner sucked. Why the hell would I continue to have her cook for me? Because she's hot? That's ridiculous. As Sean pointed out, most of these woman are undertrained and not given much time to hone their craft. Their storylines too are total garbage. But I don't blame them, because there are women who deserve to be wrestling on TV. And despite all I have said, it's when you do have female wrestlers who are given good storylines, who are good wrestlers and are given time in the ring to show that...I END UP CARING!! Look at Wrestlemania 22; I can say that I was more pumped for the Trish/Mickie James match than almost any other match (with the exception of Cena/Trips) on the card. Now why is that? Is it because "I'm attracted to the women"? No. They're beautiful, but they're just characters on TV. Vince needs to quit trying to paint this image of Playboy-Lite that he's been trying for many years with the women's division. I have absolutely no doubt, that if you hire the right people, you give them good stories and the right amount of time in the ring, you WILL get people's attention more than having them aimlessly strut around the ring in some kind of upscale sleazy wet t-shirt contest. I agree with this completely, and want to add that I personally despise when anything in wrestling is built around looks or sex, to please a shallow demographic, male or female. I just want to watch engaging characters and get lost in the drama and violence. I don't want some buff oily imbecile out there who only exists to make women or gay guys excited, narrative be damned; just as I imagine women invested in characters would hate the cheesecake bra and panties shit they had to suffer through for almost a decade. These people should NOT be dictating TV or who is stars. There's nothing wrong with finding someone attractive, but them being attractive shouldn't be the barometer and be-all reason for their employment or opportunities. As a guy with a girlfriend, I'd get irritated if my girl (and luckily she's got too much respect to ever do it) salivated over the dudes in underwear with no care or regard for the content, character or stories being told, just as I know she'd be pissed if I made lewd comments about her shows or looked like I wanted to pull my cock out every time an attractive woman showed up on one of her soaps. I hate that superficial viewership like this even exists. I kind of wish there was just something shallow idiots like that can just go watch with their soulless hair & teeth perfect people, without interfering or bothering the normal people with depth who want to watch and enjoy characters for merited reasons. But hey, that's just me.
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Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Dec 7, 2013 19:37:36 GMT -5
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2013 19:44:14 GMT -5
You can count on almost any long term wrestler having some sort of story that is either digusting, or at least makes you roll your eyes and wonder.
That's just how it is.
There is very little to respect about most wrestlers honestly. Just enjoy wrestling and try not to worry about it.
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