ratetankmark
Samurai Cop
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RIP Rik Mayall, you blimmen genius - Ria Vandervis on Rik Mayall
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Post by ratetankmark on Dec 21, 2013 2:43:54 GMT -5
To be honest, I know there are a lot of bad characters and crap villains in every franchise, that goes without saying and I understand that, but it's probably a lot harder than it looks to create a constantly successful and engaging character, DC have created more successful characters than you can shake a stick at, but they've also come up with a lot of duds, so would it hurt some reviewers to cut the guys creating the characters some slack?
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Welfare Willis
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Post by Welfare Willis on Dec 21, 2013 2:52:25 GMT -5
To expand this somewhat, aren't lists in general just lazy writing about someone's or a group of people's opinion?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2013 3:01:18 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of lists, especially enormous ones like "The 500 greatest comic book characters" or what have you. It's like, what separates number 369 from number 370?
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Post by 'Foretold' Joker on Dec 21, 2013 6:01:53 GMT -5
Worst villain lists are often mid judged by people who don't read the comic the villain comes from.
Having said that the number one worst villain is always The ten-eyed man. When your defeated by man-bat tricking you into catching a garden plant it's time to go home.
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Post by Ryback on a Pole! on Dec 21, 2013 7:09:25 GMT -5
I always hate worst villain lists because a lot of the time, they seem to miss the point and include guys like The Walrus or White Rabbit or Stilt-Man whose entire point is that they completely suck.
Worst villains for me doesn't mean weakest or most bizarre. It's ones who are just completely dull, forgettable or plain bad characters. Adam from Buffy for example. He was a poor villain. Powerful, but just so incredibly boring.
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Dec 21, 2013 11:41:58 GMT -5
Worst villain lists are often mid judged by people who don't read the comic the villain comes from. Having said that the number one worst villain is always The ten-eyed man. When your defeated by man-bat tricking you into catching a garden plant it's time to go home. when even Grant Morrison can't make you interesting, you know you're lame. for me, the worst kinds of villains fall into one of 2 categories; 1) the complete monster whose pointlessly cruel for no adequately explored reason, and seems to exist just so a writer can push the limit of what's acceptable in a story. examples of this would include Johnny Dread in the otherwise enjoyable Otherland series by Tad Williams, or most "crazy rapist baby-eater" villains that Mark Millar comes up with. Ramsay Snow from A Song of Ice and Fire is another good example, especially compared to the far more effective/intimidating Ser Gregor Clegane. a good complete monster is a great threat (and in some cases like Luca Blight or Johan Liebert can carry a work), a bad one just seems like he exists to make the work more "edgy". 2) villains the writer THINKS you're supposed to sympathize with but who've crossed too many lines for the audience to take their sob story at face value anymore. this is a particularly huge problem in various manga/animes and Japanese RPGS. and I don't think it's because of cultural values dissonance, I think it's just due to poor writing. examples of this would include Sasuke Uchiha or Seymour Guado (who was, on top of being unintentionally unsympathetic, boring as sin with the most cliche and whiny motive I've ever heard). Doctor Doom also ends up this way fairly often, as does Magneto. I actually liked that Grant Morrison seemed to be the only writer out there willing to say "hey just because he says he's sorry doesn't change who or what he is".
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ratetankmark
Samurai Cop
Equalist Lex Luthor
RIP Rik Mayall, you blimmen genius - Ria Vandervis on Rik Mayall
Posts: 2,426
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Post by ratetankmark on Dec 21, 2013 11:50:59 GMT -5
Worst villain lists are often mid judged by people who don't read the comic the villain comes from. Having said that the number one worst villain is always The ten-eyed man. When your defeated by man-bat tricking you into catching a garden plant it's time to go home. when even Grant Morrison can't make you interesting, you know you're lame. for me, the worst kinds of villains fall into one of 2 categories; 1) the complete monster whose pointlessly cruel for no adequately explored reason, and seems to exist just so a writer can push the limit of what's acceptable in a story. examples of this would include Johnny Dread in the otherwise enjoyable Otherland series by Tad Williams, or most "crazy rapist baby-eater" villains that Mark Millar comes up with. Ramsay Snow from A Song of Ice and Fire is another good example, especially compared to the far more effective/intimidating Ser Gregor Clegane. a good complete monster is a great threat (and in some cases like Luca Blight or Johan Liebert can carry a work), a bad one just seems like he exists to make the work more "edgy". 2) villains the writer THINKS you're supposed to sympathize with but who've crossed too many lines for the audience to take their sob story at face value anymore. this is a particularly huge problem in various manga/animes and Japanese RPGS. and I don't think it's because of cultural values dissonance, I think it's just due to poor writing. examples of this would include Sasuke Uchiha or Seymour Guado (who was, on top of being unintentionally unsympathetic, boring as sin with the most cliche and whiny motive I've ever heard). Doctor Doom also ends up this way fairly often, as does Magneto. I actually liked that Grant Morrison seemed to be the only writer out there willing to say "hey just because he says he's sorry doesn't change who or what he is". This, All Of This. Ironically you mention Grant Morrison because he created one of the, in my opinion, best new Batman villains ever. Professor Pyg.
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Dec 21, 2013 11:58:13 GMT -5
while I'm at it I'll throw Loxas from the otherwise great Fairy Tail under the bus, too. he gets off a bit too light at the end of his "takeover Fairy Tail" plotline. he basically gets one of his minions (whose ALSO forgiven too easily) to turn EVERY SINGLE WOMAN in the guild, who never did anything to him, turned to stone, with the threat that he's going to smash them (which would obviously be fatal) if he doesn't get what he wants. when THAT fails, he threatens to blast the entire city of Magnolia (full of nice, good people who once again have never done ANYTHING wrong to him) with lightning and kill them all. why does he make these murderous threats? because he wants to be Fairy Tail's leader. and he doesn't even LIKE anyone in Fairy Tail. and even before his murder-plot he was a total jackass who never helped anyone and laughed when his own grandfather, the man who constantly puts up with his whiny bullshit, was almost killed by a rival guild. but then Natsu beats him and he's all like "I'm sorry, I f***ed up, I'm gonna go for a walk now" with the implication that him and his team are all forgiven. and then the minion who turned all the women to stone ends up in a relation ship with one of the girls she granite-fied's brother. WHAT THE HELL?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2013 12:47:02 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of lists, especially enormous ones like "The 500 greatest comic book characters" or what have you. It's like, what separates number 369 from number 370? I hate the massive lists because of the overreactions when the beloved favorite is 370 and the dearly hated is 369.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Dec 21, 2013 21:18:26 GMT -5
I always hate worst villain lists because a lot of the time, they seem to miss the point and include guys like The Walrus or White Rabbit or Stilt-Man whose entire point is that they completely suck. Worst villains for me doesn't mean weakest or most bizarre. It's ones who are just completely dull, forgettable or plain bad characters. Adam from Buffy for example. He was a poor villain. Powerful, but just so incredibly boring. Yeah, Walrus or Stilt-man aren't bad villains they fit their role... Judas Traveller is a bad villain... a guy with vague and mysterious plans and powers... especially because he was that way because no one really knew who the hell he was and what the hell he was supposed to be doing.
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Dec 21, 2013 23:52:42 GMT -5
I always hate worst villain lists because a lot of the time, they seem to miss the point and include guys like The Walrus or White Rabbit or Stilt-Man whose entire point is that they completely suck. Worst villains for me doesn't mean weakest or most bizarre. It's ones who are just completely dull, forgettable or plain bad characters. Adam from Buffy for example. He was a poor villain. Powerful, but just so incredibly boring. Yeah, Walrus or Stilt-man aren't bad villains they fit their role... Judas Traveller is a bad villain... a guy with vague and mysterious plans and powers... especially because he was that way because no one really knew who the hell he was and what the hell he was supposed to be doing. I heard he could cut guns in half with his mind.
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Post by Zaq "That Guy" Buzzkill on Dec 22, 2013 0:02:17 GMT -5
I really hate lists where their inclusion makes no sense. Like, once I saw a list where Rude from FF& was in the top 10.
I know different opinions and all that but f***ing Rude?
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Dec 22, 2013 4:24:09 GMT -5
Yeah, Walrus or Stilt-man aren't bad villains they fit their role... Judas Traveller is a bad villain... a guy with vague and mysterious plans and powers... especially because he was that way because no one really knew who the hell he was and what the hell he was supposed to be doing. I heard he could cut guns in half with his mind. Knowing how many powers he seemed to pull out of his ass... he probably could But I meant not just no one in the comics knew who he was or his motivations... I meant literally no one... not even the writers seemed to know it either.
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Dec 22, 2013 5:02:56 GMT -5
The worst villains are the ones who become popular or intriguing and then the author tries to make them into heroes, usually by making a more over the top rediculous villain. Hannibal Lecter used to be an intimidating cannibal then he became a good guy with cannibalistic tendencies but at least he wasn't a kiddie rapist like the new villain in Mason Verger. Jamie Lannister in Game of Thrones is another one. I know George RR Martin is trying to show he has a deeper story but his hero turn is just kind of over the top to me. I mean he was introduced to the reader as a sister-shagging attempted child killer.
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Goldenbane
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Post by Goldenbane on Dec 22, 2013 9:56:54 GMT -5
The worst villains are the ones who become popular or intriguing and then the author tries to make them into heroes, usually by making a more over the top rediculous villain. Hannibal Lecter used to be an intimidating cannibal then he became a good guy with cannibalistic tendencies but at least he wasn't a kiddie rapist like the new villain in Mason Verger. Jamie Lannister in Game of Thrones is another one. I know George RR Martin is trying to show he has a deeper story but his hero turn is just kind of over the top to me. I mean he was introduced to the reader as a sister-shagging attempted child killer. That seems to be a very popular trend in comics these days, and we've kinda lost a lot of awesome villains because of it...or worse yet, they constantly flip flop all the time. Dr. Doom, Magneto, Giganta, Loki, and Thanos have all suffered this fate at one point or another. Doom is probably the worst, IMO. I've read one story where he captures, experiments on, kills, and turns into cyborg monsters...ELDERLY PEOPLE AND CHILDREN! Yes, they were Asgardians, but they were still f***ing old, children, or women. If you're an asshole with the "they're arrogant alien/gods and deserve it" mind set, then he also happily murdered Cassie Lang, a child super hero. Then he shows up all in white on Fantastic Foundation, like I'm now supposed to root for this sorry prick. No, Doom. I'll continue to root for you against Batman, and that's it. F you, I hope you get the shit beaten out of you by Squirrel Girl and Luke Cage again.
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Post by Red Impact on Dec 22, 2013 10:33:53 GMT -5
That seems to be a very popular trend in comics these days, and we've kinda lost a lot of awesome villains because of it...or worse yet, they constantly flip flop all the time. Dr. Doom, Magneto, Giganta, Loki, and Thanos have all suffered this fate at one point or another. Doom is probably the worst, IMO. I've read one story where he captures, experiments on, kills, and turns into cyborg monsters...ELDERLY PEOPLE AND CHILDREN! Yes, they were Asgardians, but they were still f***ing old, children, or women. If you're an asshole with the "they're arrogant alien/gods and deserve it" mind set, then he also happily murdered Cassie Lang, a child super hero. Then he shows up all in white on Fantastic Foundation, like I'm now supposed to root for this sorry prick. No, Doom. I'll continue to root for you against Batman, and that's it. F you, I hope you get the shit beaten out of you by Squirrel Girl and Luke Cage again. Like when they had Dr. Doom cry when they made 9/11 happen in the Marvel Universe? I get what they were trying to do, but in universe... this guy has done much worse. Trying to put real world tragedies and have them affect people who are, in their fictional worlds, bigger monsters just comes off wrong to me.
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Dec 22, 2013 10:38:43 GMT -5
The worst villains are the ones who become popular or intriguing and then the author tries to make them into heroes, usually by making a more over the top rediculous villain. Hannibal Lecter used to be an intimidating cannibal then he became a good guy with cannibalistic tendencies but at least he wasn't a kiddie rapist like the new villain in Mason Verger. Jamie Lannister in Game of Thrones is another one. I know George RR Martin is trying to show he has a deeper story but his hero turn is just kind of over the top to me. I mean he was introduced to the reader as a sister-shagging attempted child killer. That seems to be a very popular trend in comics these days, and we've kinda lost a lot of awesome villains because of it...or worse yet, they constantly flip flop all the time. Dr. Doom, Magneto, Giganta, Loki, and Thanos have all suffered this fate at one point or another. Doom is probably the worst, IMO. I've read one story where he captures, experiments on, kills, and turns into cyborg monsters...ELDERLY PEOPLE AND CHILDREN! Yes, they were Asgardians, but they were still f***ing old, children, or women. If you're an asshole with the "they're arrogant alien/gods and deserve it" mind set, then he also happily murdered Cassie Lang, a child super hero. Then he shows up all in white on Fantastic Foundation, like I'm now supposed to root for this sorry prick. No, Doom. I'll continue to root for you against Batman, and that's it. F you, I hope you get the shit beaten out of you by Squirrel Girl and Luke Cage again. you forgot the time when he got a woman to tell him she loved him no matter what only to immmediately murder her, skin her alive and make a new magic suit out of said skin. and then he abducted Franklin Richards and abandoned him in hell. yeah Doom's pretty impossible to take seriously as even remotely noble these days. but that's what you get when your company's run by writers who grew up thinking "who cares if he's evil? he's cool" and then forgetting the evil part. it's pretty endemic at TVtropes, where every time Doom does something completely in character that's evil someone screams "character derailment" or "out of character". it's actually kinda sad. I remember one writer (I believe it was Joe Casey, whose actually usually really good, but it could've been Chuck Austen) had freaking SABRETOOTH join the X-men at one point. Sabretooth! the baby-eating psycho who can't end a day without butchering someone for no reason. and Mystique joined them at one point too, and aside from Chris Claremont's silly attempt to justify her behaviour (a recurring theme of his; he did it to Magneto too, but with a bit more success) Mystique is just as bad.
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Goldenbane
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Posts: 7,331
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Post by Goldenbane on Dec 22, 2013 11:15:09 GMT -5
That seems to be a very popular trend in comics these days, and we've kinda lost a lot of awesome villains because of it...or worse yet, they constantly flip flop all the time. Dr. Doom, Magneto, Giganta, Loki, and Thanos have all suffered this fate at one point or another. Doom is probably the worst, IMO. I've read one story where he captures, experiments on, kills, and turns into cyborg monsters...ELDERLY PEOPLE AND CHILDREN! Yes, they were Asgardians, but they were still f***ing old, children, or women. If you're an asshole with the "they're arrogant alien/gods and deserve it" mind set, then he also happily murdered Cassie Lang, a child super hero. Then he shows up all in white on Fantastic Foundation, like I'm now supposed to root for this sorry prick. No, Doom. I'll continue to root for you against Batman, and that's it. F you, I hope you get the shit beaten out of you by Squirrel Girl and Luke Cage again. you forgot the time when he got a woman to tell him she loved him no matter what only to immmediately murder her, skin her alive and make a new magic suit out of said skin. and then he abducted Franklin Richards and abandoned him in hell. yeah Doom's pretty impossible to take seriously as even remotely noble these days. but that's what you get when your company's run by writers who grew up thinking "who cares if he's evil? he's cool" and then forgetting the evil part. it's pretty endemic at TVtropes, where every time Doom does something completely in character that's evil someone screams "character derailment" or "out of character". it's actually kinda sad. I remember one writer (I believe it was Joe Casey, whose actually usually really good, but it could've been Chuck Austen) had freaking SABRETOOTH join the X-men at one point. Sabretooth! the baby-eating psycho who can't end a day without butchering someone for no reason. and Mystique joined them at one point too, and aside from Chris Claremont's silly attempt to justify her behaviour (a recurring theme of his; he did it to Magneto too, but with a bit more success) Mystique is just as bad. Oh geez, how could I have forgotten Sabertooth's and Juggernaut's runs as "good guys?" Heck, Mystique, IMO, is another one that drives me crazy that she's "good" or "anti-hero" now. To a lesser degree I kinda feel the same about Cat Woman and White Queen, but as I haven't followed comics with them as much...and only know them mostly from movies, shows, and cartoons, I guess they've been much more oftenly portrayed as "good" than "bad."
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Dec 22, 2013 11:22:27 GMT -5
you forgot the time when he got a woman to tell him she loved him no matter what only to immmediately murder her, skin her alive and make a new magic suit out of said skin. and then he abducted Franklin Richards and abandoned him in hell. yeah Doom's pretty impossible to take seriously as even remotely noble these days. but that's what you get when your company's run by writers who grew up thinking "who cares if he's evil? he's cool" and then forgetting the evil part. it's pretty endemic at TVtropes, where every time Doom does something completely in character that's evil someone screams "character derailment" or "out of character". it's actually kinda sad. I remember one writer (I believe it was Joe Casey, whose actually usually really good, but it could've been Chuck Austen) had freaking SABRETOOTH join the X-men at one point. Sabretooth! the baby-eating psycho who can't end a day without butchering someone for no reason. and Mystique joined them at one point too, and aside from Chris Claremont's silly attempt to justify her behaviour (a recurring theme of his; he did it to Magneto too, but with a bit more success) Mystique is just as bad. Oh geez, how could I have forgotten Sabertooth's and Juggernaut's runs as "good guys?" Heck, Mystique, IMO, is another one that drives me crazy that she's "good" or "anti-hero" now. To a lesser degree I kinda feel the same about Cat Woman and White Queen, but as I haven't followed comics with them as much...and only know them mostly from movies, shows, and cartoons, I guess they've been much more oftenly portrayed as "good" than "bad." well Catwoman works because she was never a murderer, she just stole things. it's a lot easier to justify a face turn for a thief than it is for a mass-murderer. as for Emma, it kinda works because she was always the least "evil" of the Hellfire Club (Selene and Donald Pierce are the only ones who were flat out monstrous) and she had years of character development as a teacher of younger mutants. the real problem Emma has is suddenly being younger than Cyclops when she was supposed to be the same age as Xavier/Magneto. the character who showed up in Grant Morrison's X-men run that''s with the team now might as well be a different character from the one John Byrne and Chris Claremont created. she also wasn't british until Morrison thought she was. basically if there's one character Morrison actually did screw up in his otherwise great run on the book it was Emma and certainly not Magneto.
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Dec 22, 2013 16:20:47 GMT -5
Those lists are always stupid because they can never decide if they want to base it on a character's worth in comic culture, or base it within how good they are in their fictional realm. Like, they'll rank Batman number one because of his cultural impact, but then rank Hal Jordan at like number five and base it on his powers and skillset. It's completely ridiculous.
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