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Post by OGBoardPoster2005 on Apr 19, 2014 9:41:17 GMT -5
I still laugh after the HHH/Lesnar Summerslam match where they tried giving Trips a heroes ovation only for the entire crowd to chant "YOU TAPPED OUT" at him.
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Post by arrogantmodel on Apr 19, 2014 9:53:14 GMT -5
I was there for the Orton/Cena Bragging Rights No DQ Iron Man match. And I remember thinking Orton was smart for tapping out, maybe even before Cena had the hold applied fully. Its a 60 minute match. It was like 10 minutes in. You have plenty of time to make it up.
But what annoyed me was the end where Cena has Orton in the STF and the entire crowd is counting down the 60 minutes (9...8...7...) and Orton taps out with like 4 seconds left. You heard the crowd, hang on, man! He might have even seen the clock on the screen, but I think he was facing the announcers.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2014 9:59:48 GMT -5
Was funny in the 80s when people would be put in a hold and a few seconds later the ref would just arbitrarily call for the bell.
It was like the montreal screwjob every match.
"Good god he's been in the abdominal stretch for 3 seconds! ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!"
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Post by Neo: "The One" who CLAPS on Apr 19, 2014 10:36:28 GMT -5
The way WWE presents tapping and MMA presents tapping is vastly different. Also, in wrestling you see when wrestlers tap it's a violent mat slap, basically saying "I QUIT OH MY GOD THE PAIN". In MMA, submitting is just a light little tap.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Apr 19, 2014 10:46:38 GMT -5
1. Because Stone Cold didn't tap, and WWE made that "the standard" to live up to. 2. Because in WWE submission holds aren't portrayed as being able to break bones (with the possible exception of Lesnar's Kimura).
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Post by Andrew is Good on Apr 19, 2014 10:59:50 GMT -5
I do wish there would be more tapping out, especially for top babyfaces. I guess one difference from MMA is there is an escape with wrestling, that being the ropes. One thing that WWE should take up is immediate tap outs, or ones where you can't make it to the ropes. It would make finishers look more impressive and you could build up to that hold in the match. It would remind me of Rounda Rousey and Miesha Tate, and Rounda had the arm bar in, but didn't have it in as much as she would want, so Miesha didn't tap out and only tapped out later when Rounda really had it in.
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Post by sunnytaker on Apr 19, 2014 11:19:59 GMT -5
i actually liked what Magnus did in TNA/Impact for a while when he had the belt. he'd be in a tag/non-title match and seconds after he's put in a submission hold he'd tap immediately. his partner would get mad at him and Magnus would be all "hey it's a non title match- why should i risk an injury that might cost me my title later when i don;t have to?"
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Savage Gambino
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Post by Savage Gambino on Apr 19, 2014 11:26:25 GMT -5
It's so annoying, especially having gotten into MMA in 2005 and seeing the way that submission is treated in wrestling by comparison. Punk brought a great point up on commentary about tapping to the Yes Lock at Over the Limit. Its better to give up there than to sit out for 6 months with injury. This. They should have an angle where someone, perhaps Bryan or Lesnar is injuring people with their submission because folks refuse to tap, play up that sometimes you've gotta know that you can't fight out and accept defeat. Self preservation, living to fight another day and all that jazz. I nominate Bryan, if only because it would give him the opportunity to bring back "Tap or Snap".
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Apr 19, 2014 11:49:44 GMT -5
Though it's stupid, I'm a little sympathetic to the WWE on this, because there is SUCH great drama to watch someone struggle for the ropes. But the problem is, now submission finishers exist primarily to set up "struggle for the ropes" spots, which means it's weird and surprising to see someone actually lose to them. It's like, "The last guy crawled around for ten minutes; you're just tapping out?" Honestly, they should end the rope-break rule and just teach people counters to the big finishing moves.
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Steveweiser
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Post by Steveweiser on Apr 19, 2014 11:57:18 GMT -5
They should go a bit like ROH used to, and have limits on rope breaks, maybe one a match. Once you've used them up, moves on the ropes become legal.
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Post by "Gentleman" AJ Powell on Apr 19, 2014 11:59:22 GMT -5
1. Because Stone Cold didn't tap, and WWE made that "the standard" to live up to. 2. Because in WWE submission holds aren't portrayed as being able to break bones (with the possible exception of Lesnar's Kimura). Exactly, they need to be portrayed as moves that will break bones, tear ligaments etc. It's all well and good ADR holding the Armbar after the bell to be AGGRESSIVE, but they need to sell it as actually injuring said person, otherwise what's the point? Have them report later that said person's injured their elbow as a result, tore a ligament or something and will be out for a while.
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metylerca
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Post by metylerca on Apr 19, 2014 12:14:06 GMT -5
They should go a bit like ROH used to, and have limits on rope breaks, maybe one a match. Once you've used them up, moves on the ropes become legal. I believe Pure Rules allowed 3 rope breaks.
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mrjl
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Post by mrjl on Apr 19, 2014 12:44:53 GMT -5
1. Because Stone Cold didn't tap, and WWE made that "the standard" to live up to. 2. Because in WWE submission holds aren't portrayed as being able to break bones (with the possible exception of Lesnar's Kimura). Exactly, they need to be portrayed as moves that will break bones, tear ligaments etc. It's all well and good ADR holding the Armbar after the bell to be AGGRESSIVE, but they need to sell it as actually injuring said person, otherwise what's the point? Have them report later that said person's injured their elbow as a result, tore a ligament or something and will be out for a while. consequences to the victim of the illegal hold make it hard to justify the company not punishing the guy who applied the hold
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Reflecto
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Post by Reflecto on Apr 19, 2014 13:22:17 GMT -5
There might not be anything that bugs me more in wrestling than this. If Daniel Bryan gets you in the Yes Lock and you don't tap, well, you've now got a broken shoulder. Congratulations for being kind of an idiot. Honestly, I'd like to see the entire way wrestling treats submissions change. Treat them with the danger they should be treated, don't have guys fighting to the ropes in holds that would snap something in a few seconds (Del Rio's armbar being a prime example) and make the struggle about AVOIDING being put in the hold instead of making it so easy to escape. Even then, though, a little bit of a struggle is kind of necessary in submissions too- even if you treat a submission hold with the danger they should be treated with (or are for most finishers). Having people fight to the ropes in holds makes some sense- they know that if the hold gets locked in, they're doomed- but you can at least try and struggle enough to not let the guy lock you in. It's exacerbated by wrestler gimmicks- using your example of Del Rio's armbar: In MMA, the second a guy taps out- or even the referee declares the guy has no hope of getting out of a hold, they stop the match- his opponent breaks the hold. However, Alberto Del Rio's Wheel Of Aggression is a meme here- and in kayfabe, any opponent would naturally know about Del Rio's aggressiveness as well. If you're a wrestler going into the ring with Del Rio- why shouldn't you try to fight to the ropes to at least try to get out of his armbar? You're in the hold, you KNOW Alberto Del Rio can snap your arm in a few seconds...but you also know that even if you tap out to the armbar, Alberto Del Rio isn't going to break the hold until he dislocates your shoulder at the very least, even after Del Rio gets the submission and the victory. With that in mind- Del Rio's gotten you in the armbar- it's over. You're GOING to get your arm broken by him. It's a formality- whether you tap or not, your arm is effectively already broken...so why not fight the hold and at least try to get out, try for the win, and even when you DO lose and your arm is broken, make it clear your arm was broken, but he didn't break YOU? A submission should be about avoiding being put in the hold, but if you make it so people can't easily escape it or don't fight holds that could snap something in a few seconds, the logical endgame becomes less "I won't fight, I'll just tap out" and more a mix of "Newer, More Aggressive Heels [tm]" and faces where "Daniel Bryan's got his arms on mine and is taking me down, I'm tapping out now before he locks the Yes! Lock in!"
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ededdneddy
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Post by ededdneddy on Apr 19, 2014 13:53:46 GMT -5
Me and my friends were talking about this before Mania 30. We talked about Cena vs Bray and how the only way they could kill Brays momentium is by having him tap out even after he said in a promo about you can't hurt someone who can't feel pain. if they had him tap out it would have been bad for Bray.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Apr 19, 2014 13:54:58 GMT -5
Yeah, I think it would be a problem to recast submitting as "if you don't, you'll be seriously injured." Submitting because of extreme pain shouldn't be humiliating for the person who does it.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Apr 19, 2014 14:34:06 GMT -5
Why don't wrestlers just hulk up? Seems simple enough. Did they not watch in the 80s? OR at the very least start shaking the ring ropes...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2014 14:57:32 GMT -5
Why don't wrestlers just hulk up? Seems simple enough. Did they not watch in the 80s? OR at the very least start shaking the ring ropes... If they start shaking the ring ropes the hold's broken anyway. So... win-win?
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Apr 19, 2014 14:59:26 GMT -5
exactly!
And then the man who stole the kinetic energy from the ropes is completly fresh rendering all submission moves meaningless!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2014 15:04:27 GMT -5
exactly! And then the man who stole the kinetic energy from the ropes is completly fresh rendering all submission moves meaningless! Throw in a shin guard and they'll never have to worry again!
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