|
Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Jul 2, 2014 23:04:58 GMT -5
Cornette is beating a death horse, wonder what ideas Christy has, as far as JC's run in ROH, I agree and disagree with some of your statements, he gave Steen the biggest push of his career, funny doesn't draw money if it did Santino would've headlined several wrestlemanias, you van crack jokes but wrestling at its core is suppose to portray a fight, that being said Cabana has shown that he can have a serious side and be relevant (homicide and adam Pearce feuds come to mind), and f*** from what I'm seing if El Generico lost the mask earlier in his career he would've been in the E years earlier, Sami Zayn is gonna be a fixture on tv for years. What I'm trying to say is that while some of us don't agree with the way Corny handled those guys, he had some valid points.
|
|
|
Post by Jedi-El of Tomorrow on Jul 2, 2014 23:07:42 GMT -5
To be fair...... -Steen was a dick to him in general, and kinda to the company. He wanted to take Steen off of TV for 6 months so he can get in better shape and he would come back to a big push, and that didn't end up happening. He talked about it on his podcast, there was also a pay issue he had with Steen, I'd have to go back and listen to that. Steen was a pain to deal with apparently. -He said El Generico was the best seller he's seen since Ricky Morton, he just didn't get the gimmick. -He doesn't believe funny can draw money, and in general, he's right. Most of the top guys don't really use humour, or when they do, it's unintentional and not just doing something funny for the sake of it. Plus, he also feels that guys need to go away from a company for awhile so the fans can miss them. EY was a comedy character for years, and one reason people didn't get into his title run was because, he was a comedy character for years. Kurt Angle takes a massive dump all over his argument. Hell, Foley, Rock, and even Austin have shown you can be funny AND credible. He seems to think they are mutually exclusive. I think he has some merit to his arguments, but he's also missing a huge failure in his reasoning. Hell, there's Cena. His rise to the top started when Steph heard him rap, they had him rap, made him funny, all of sudden he's getting big reactions, a WWE Title match against Brock on ppv, and fans are loving him.
|
|
|
Post by ZombieElvis on Jul 3, 2014 1:39:18 GMT -5
I'm shocked this thread isn't made every week. Cornette hates TNA and this isn't new at all.
The big problem with Corrente is that he wants to be an old school booker with absolute control on personnel and only has to use the people he wants to use. Bookers with that kind of power died many, many years ago.
Now the wrestling booker is a lot more like a TV writer and you have to use the talent on contract and push people that are liked by the higher ups in the company. Cornette is from a time when the booker had "his boys" that would get pushed and it was easier to bring in/get rid of guys. When a new booker came into a territory and didn't like someone they'd ship them off to a different territory/bury them to make them leave and bring their guys in.
I'm a huge Jim Cornette fan, but it's true when I say that no booker will ever get that kind of power ever again in a wrestling promotion. Wrestling is just too corporate now for that kind of booker.
|
|
|
Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Jul 3, 2014 1:51:05 GMT -5
I wouldn't hand Cornette the book today, but f*** if listening to him cuss and run people down for a few hours isn't entertaining.
|
|
|
Post by BV on Jul 3, 2014 3:20:32 GMT -5
Too bad Cornette doesn't know *lame metaphor* about wrestling these days either.
|
|
|
Post by cabbageboy on Jul 3, 2014 10:29:38 GMT -5
The Cornette/Heyman OVW comparisons were interesting when Kenny Bolin (longtime OVW manager and Cornette's buddy) buried Heyman, saying stuff like his shows tanked house show gates around the area, etc. I thought it was odd since Heyman to me was doing exactly what someone booking developmental should do, namely get guys over on TV and put them in storylines designed to showcase them for the main WWE office. Maybe Cornette was trying to serve two different masters in OVW, in that he had to placate the WWE office yet also felt he had to push local shows like he was booking a territory.
|
|
Chip
Hank Scorpio
Slam Jam Death.
Posts: 5,185
|
Post by Chip on Jul 3, 2014 10:50:05 GMT -5
I love hearing Cornette talk old school stuff, his knowledge is second to none, but when it comes to modern wrestling I wish he'd shut up. Actually, I wish someone would have the balls to have him book 6 months or so of modern TNA, put up or shut up. Kayfabe Commentaries, Highspots, or someone that isn't the kid diddler if you're seeing this, give him 2012 or preferably 2013 and let's see what he can do because if his ROH run is any indication, I think I'd rather have Russo. I remember Kayfabe Commentaries had both Russo and Cornette re-book the InVasion angle in their Guest Booker series. The two ended up booking a great deal of things the same way which was hilarious to watch. Like their booking of Terry Funk as a midcard comedy champion was step for step almost the exact same.
|
|
|
Post by Milkman Norm on Jul 3, 2014 10:50:10 GMT -5
Other than that Jericho/Storm vs Heavenly Bodies match where Jericho bleeds all over the place I don't think I ever seen anything Cornette booked. I know he was on the team in WWF in 1997 and I watched that but as far as him being the guy with the book I don't think I've seen it. I do love his shoots though.
|
|
|
Post by Andrew is Good on Jul 3, 2014 13:55:52 GMT -5
To do a general reply as well, big stars can certainly be funny, but when it comes to the big time money drawing feud, everything is completely serious.
Steve Austin I think is a great example of comedy used in a serious manner. Hell, even when he was in the comedy skit with Vince McMahon and the bedpan, Austin was dead serious, and just happened to smash Vince with a bedpan. Austin was an intense, angry man and would use any means to get at Vince, and while all this stuff was funny, it was done because he hates Vince.
Review a Wai had a Review on the 1999 King of the Ring, and it happened around the time of the John Cena/Johnny Ace match, and they did a compare and contrast with the main event of the 1999 King of the Ring, Austin vs the McMahons. Austin vs the McMahons had some funny moments, but it all took place in Austin beating the shit out of them and finally getting his hands on the McMahons. Cena vs Ace on the other hand had bad comedy spots in the match, and no real anger and hatred towards the authority figure. Now, this could be booking, but the matches pretty much had a similar premise, but were drastically different based on the performers.
Kurt Angle was brought up, but when Angle was heated up as a top guy against Austin, it was pretty intense. Sure, they had the milk truck moment, but when it comes to building up the drama of the match so you would buy it on pay per view, it was pretty intense. The same goes with most of Kurt Angle's top programs. Comedy can exist, and there maybe exceptions, but generally, the guys in each case are very serious and want to win the title/beat the f*** out of the opponent.
There was a lot of criticism with what they did with Roman Reigns spiking the coffee. The reason being is people didn't want to see him involved in such a juvenile angle like that. That, and sometimes WWE's comedy is just the worst. Or even when John Cena did the bad photoshop pictures against the Wyatts. It was described on a podcast as like, Seasame Street meets the Sopranos, or something to that degree.
It is a tough argument to make, but I think both sides can do a fair bit of equivocating, even if it's unintentional. People who think comedy can draw money may ignore major points of angles where there was no comedy and may've been the meat of the angle, but I also don't want to discount comedy of The Rock and Kurt Angle, which could potentially be used to almost build atmosphere for when things get serious. I feel I've probably ignored some comedy. One example of that was the 3 hour Raw which featured the Nexus angle. Lots of bad comedy and light heartedness plagued the show, and then the Nexus angle hit, and it made a huge impact.
|
|
|
Post by Been burned too many times on Jul 3, 2014 14:38:01 GMT -5
Cornette's terrible. All he does is complain and he's been complaining about the same people for years. Nothing is his fault, nah its always somebody else. It's old.
|
|
AdamAFL was sooooo wrong
Hank Scorpio
note to all: he's a pants-less heathen
I Survived The Impact Spoilers 7/22/15-7/30/15
Posts: 7,095
|
Post by AdamAFL was sooooo wrong on Jul 3, 2014 14:47:27 GMT -5
Cornette's assesment is pretty much spot on. The problem is he isn't any better. But still he has as much of a right to criticse the TNA booking team as we do - from the point of view of somebody who isn't a booker which JIm isn't - and has proven he can't be (in the modern era). This might have carried more weight with me if we didn't know he was the douche who let Colt slip between his fingers, and treated Steen and Generico rather shittily. He's frankly a dinosaur. To be fair...... -Steen was a dick to him in general, and kinda to the company. He wanted to take Steen off of TV for 6 months so he can get in better shape and he would come back to a big push, and that didn't end up happening. He talked about it on his podcast, there was also a pay issue he had with Steen, I'd have to go back and listen to that. Steen was a pain to deal with apparently. -He said El Generico was the best seller he's seen since Ricky Morton, he just didn't get the gimmick. -He doesn't believe funny can draw money, and in general, he's right. Most of the top guys don't really use humour, or when they do, it's unintentional and not just doing something funny for the sake of it. Plus, he also feels that guys need to go away from a company for awhile so the fans can miss them. EY was a comedy character for years, and one reason people didn't get into his title run was because, he was a comedy character for years. To be fair it depends on who you believe, that's Jim's version. Steen's version is a little different and since Steen has always come across to me as a really nice guy I'm kinda inclined to believe his opinion.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2014 14:51:18 GMT -5
To do a general reply as well, big stars can certainly be funny, but when it comes to the big time money drawing feud, everything is completely serious. Steve Austin I think is a great example of comedy used in a serious manner. Hell, even when he was in the comedy skit with Vince McMahon and the bedpan, Austin was dead serious, and just happened to smash Vince with a bedpan. Austin was an intense, angry man and would use any means to get at Vince, and while all this stuff was funny, it was done because he hates Vince. Review a Wai had a Review on the 1999 King of the Ring, and it happened around the time of the John Cena/Johnny Ace match, and they did a compare and contrast with the main event of the 1999 King of the Ring, Austin vs the McMahons. Austin vs the McMahons had some funny moments, but it all took place in Austin beating the shit out of them and finally getting his hands on the McMahons. Cena vs Ace on the other hand had bad comedy spots in the match, and no real anger and hatred towards the authority figure. Now, this could be booking, but the matches pretty much had a similar premise, but were drastically different based on the performers. Kurt Angle was brought up, but when Angle was heated up as a top guy against Austin, it was pretty intense. Sure, they had the milk truck moment, but when it comes to building up the drama of the match so you would buy it on pay per view, it was pretty intense. The same goes with most of Kurt Angle's top programs. Comedy can exist, and there maybe exceptions, but generally, the guys in each case are very serious and want to win the title/beat the f*** out of the opponent. There was a lot of criticism with what they did with Roman Reigns spiking the coffee. The reason being is people didn't want to see him involved in such a juvenile angle like that. That, and sometimes WWE's comedy is just the worst. Or even when John Cena did the bad photoshop pictures against the Wyatts. It was described on a podcast as like, Seasame Street meets the Sopranos, or something to that degree. It is a tough argument to make, but I think both sides can do a fair bit of equivocating, even if it's unintentional. People who think comedy can draw money may ignore major points of angles where there was no comedy and may've been the meat of the angle, but I also don't want to discount comedy of The Rock and Kurt Angle, which could potentially be used to almost build atmosphere for when things get serious. I feel I've probably ignored some comedy. One example of that was the 3 hour Raw which featured the Nexus angle. Lots of bad comedy and light heartedness plagued the show, and then the Nexus angle hit, and it made a huge impact. Someone could argue something like Mankind/Rock's "This Is Your Life" segment skyrocketing ratings but even then the comedy isn't necessarily comedy for comedy's sake so I don't know. Even Colt Cabana I think in spite of his claims that funny draws money, I don't think Colt draws on the strength of his humor more than it is his high level wrestling ability. I think he's more serious than he likes to admit or I'm just not seeing the right matches. Most of his matches that I've seen have comedic elements, but a lot of the comedy is in that he's just so good that he can wrestle people into comedic situations, but eventually those matches grow beyond that and become more competitive and serious. Then there's something like PWG which I think the comedic moments of a lot of matches (and especially the commentary) definitely make them unique and probably puts more money in their pockets than they would without it, but again I don't think people are saying "we gotta see PWG, it's so funny."
|
|
|
Post by KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!! on Jul 3, 2014 14:54:45 GMT -5
Oh look Jim Cornette is complaining about TNA again.
Oh look the sky is blue and water is wet.
|
|
|
Post by machomuta on Jul 3, 2014 15:07:45 GMT -5
Cornette is just as bad as Russo. None of them are even half as good as Heyman.
|
|
|
Post by Kash Flagg on Jul 3, 2014 15:10:24 GMT -5
All I'm gonna say on the matter...just find it funny when EVERYONE here does the exact same thing Cornette does (and yeah it can be repetitive), yet he gets bashed for it. Just sayin.
|
|
|
Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jul 3, 2014 15:35:19 GMT -5
Jim Cornette hopping on the 'What does Christy have to contribute creatively' bandwagon is kind of hilarious when you think about it given how their careers are so similar on paper. Christy does PR, photoshoots, ring announcing, worked as a manager and did countless other things for the company, but unlike Cornette, she actually trained as a wrestler and took bumps night after night.
She does have one thing that Jim Cornette doesn't, freshness as she's not someone who's spent the past 3 decades recycling the same old ideas with less success each time... Plus she knows how to work with other people and won't be kicked off the team for constantly causing arguments and making it impossible to get anything done.
|
|
|
Post by Hit Girl on Jul 3, 2014 15:38:51 GMT -5
I love Cornette
He's a guy who identifies problems, but not the guy who's suited to solving them
|
|
|
Post by Andrew is Good on Jul 3, 2014 16:03:49 GMT -5
Jim Cornette hopping on the 'What does Christy have to contribute creatively' bandwagon is kind of hilarious when you think about it given how their careers are so similar on paper. Christy does PR, photoshoots, ring announcing, worked as a manager and did countless other things for the company, but unlike Cornette, she actually trained as a wrestler and took bumps night after night. She does have one thing that Jim Cornette doesn't, freshness as she's not someone who's spent the past 3 decades recycling the same old ideas with less success each time... Plus she knows how to work with other people and won't be kicked off the team for constantly causing arguments and making it impossible to get anything done. To be fair, one thing Cornette has is he had people who knew more then him telling him what was right and what wasn't, Kevin Sullivan for instance, not to mention many of the other wrestlers and managers. That, and there was a lot better grasp on what was going on back then. I'd say Kevin Sullivan is a better source of information then say, John Gaburuk or however his name is spelled. Also, one thing I hate about these threads about Cornette is people who say he and Russo are the same, which like, you might as well say that Jim Cornette molests children with an insult like that. I think Cornette would be in a more conservative camp booking wise, but he should be put on a scale of people, and Russo isn't even on that scale, he's just simply his own entity that exists outside of space and time. The second thing is these threads usually come up when like, Jim Cornette is asked his specific opinion about something and people are like, oh, Jim's saying something bad about TNA. He was asked for his opinion and he gave it.
|
|
percymania
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Percymania will live forever! Oh yeah!
Posts: 17,296
|
Post by percymania on Jul 3, 2014 20:46:08 GMT -5
Holy crap I forgot Christy Hemme was on the booking team. LOLTNA.
|
|
|
Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Jul 3, 2014 20:59:24 GMT -5
Funny always has, and always will, draw money. It's pratfalling that doesn't draw, at least not at the main event level.
I think the difference is characters like Austin, Cena, Rock and Foley are able (or just know how, in the case of the performers themselves) to channel their badassery into their comedy.
Guys like Hornswoggle, Santino and Heath Slater are pratfalling bumblers. They basically serve as the clowns of the wrestling circus while the Bryans, Cenas and Ortons are the trapeze, strongmen and human cannonballs. Those guys of characters, no, they can't be pushed and shouldn't be as major threats- which is why Eric Young failed to gain so much traction, the jump from comedy jobber to scrappy worldbeater was too sudden.
But a (legitimately) funny badass is always a plus, because if you write them properly, they can serve as the audience avatar that comments on all of the absurd shit going on around him. That was one of the biggest factors in Rock's comedy, IMO.
|
|