chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 27,959
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Post by chazraps on Jul 26, 2014 17:12:07 GMT -5
Zack Ryder
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Post by eJm on Jul 26, 2014 17:12:52 GMT -5
I still don't understand how that promo he did on the post PPV Raw was bad. It was one line of dialogue that capitalised on a moment at the PPV, his dad marking out for his win and included a catchphrase. It was actually the most protected thing they did with Ryder during that entire time. The next week was when stuff got stupid. On it's own It wasn't bad at all. But I don't think they protected him. To me it felt like they put Zack out there so he could look bad by getting outclassed by Punk and Bryan. Like the two of them are such amazing performers that Zack just looks awful in comparison. They should've given him a separate segment or a backstage interview. Oh sure, but it wasn't like they got him to cut that same sort of promo. It was one line and it suited him, I felt. Obviously a lot of people disagree but I never really got why.
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Post by EP 54 is banned from Collision on Jul 26, 2014 17:13:00 GMT -5
The promotion's job is making money out of the talent. Bottom line. If someone is so over the crowd is chanting over a WWE Legend (in the truest sense) and a legit Hollywood star, you protect them, ride it out, see where it goes.You don't undercut them.
If Zack can't talk... well help him. In the meantime, do pre-recorded interviews, so you can direct him. Hell, do five minute Raw is Z! True Long Island Story segments, mimicking his webshow. His ring work is nothing special, but he can put on a decent mtch, and is very carriable by the guys who are great in the ring. Keep him going until the fans aren't buying his stuff, and you'll have at least a semi-credible guy to throw into feuds/tag teams/storylines.
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Crimson
Hank Scorpio
Thank you DWade
Posts: 6,511
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Post by Crimson on Jul 26, 2014 17:14:57 GMT -5
Oh good, it's this weeks "Ryder got buried/Ryder sucks anyway" thread. Can someone just post the gif of Kane pushing him off the stage already? You can see the exact moment Ryder's career died right.....here I still don't understand how that promo he did on the post PPV Raw was bad. It was one line of dialogue that capitalised on a moment at the PPV, his dad marking out for his win and included a catchphrase. It was actually the most protected thing they did with Ryder during that entire time. The next week was when stuff got stupid. On it's own It wasn't bad at all. But I don't think they protected him. To me it felt like they put Zack out there so he could look bad by getting outclassed by Punk and Bryan. Like the two of them are such amazing performers that Zack just looks awful in comparison. They should've given him a separate segment or a backstage interview. I don't think that particularly was an example of the company intentionally setting up Ryder to fail. Really I don't think it's any big conspiracy against Ryder either. And as much as Zack Ryder's detractors like to reference that promo, I don't think that had anything to do with it either. The company is really transparent with who they intend to push long term and who's only getting a push to kill time.
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Post by Nic Nemeth on Jul 26, 2014 17:19:49 GMT -5
This may be the real reason. I remember hearing a story about how fans were having a better time talking to Dolph Ziggler (who was a heel) than Zack Ryder who would just sign their stuff and speed through it. Considering how he was treating his fans after he got a push, it made it seem like he wasn't a good enough guy to deserve it. I distinctly remember how badly he handled the Twitter contest that he set up. It's why I kind of shake my head now whenever he tries again to use the fans to gain relevance. IIRC, some fans didn't even get their shirts and he said it wasn't his responsibility.
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Post by Kash Flagg on Jul 26, 2014 17:20:21 GMT -5
The Eplay says it all.
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Abdullah
Hank Scorpio
Thank you, Ishmeal Loves Bayley!
Posts: 6,420
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Post by Abdullah on Jul 26, 2014 17:44:54 GMT -5
I distinctly remember how badly he handled the Twitter contest that he set up. It's why I kind of shake my head now whenever he tries again to use the fans to gain relevance. IIRC, some fans didn't even get their shirts and he said it wasn't his responsibility. Exactly. The sheer stupidity of a guy who came up with a pretty smart idea was staggering to me. At least pretend to be grateful to those who supported you.
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kevin
El Dandy
Posts: 7,503
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Post by kevin on Jul 26, 2014 19:47:26 GMT -5
Ryder is interesting because he had his big moment he He beat Dolph Ziggler for a title while making friends with a big Hollywood guest star. He got in the ring with Daniel Bryan and CM Punk two people the WWE were unquestionably fully behind, and he got put into a main event angle with Cena. It seems more like they tries really hard to keep him over than that they tried to bury him. I think that Zack is someone who connects really well people in pretaped segments and videos but that he loses people in live events and matches. Zack is not someone who proves that making yourself popular on your own is pointless but proof that getting yourself over online does not necessarily translate to getting yourself over in ring.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jul 26, 2014 20:53:00 GMT -5
Ryder is interesting because he had his big moment he He beat Dolph Ziggler for a title while making friends with a big Hollywood guest star. He got in the ring with Daniel Bryan and CM Punk two people the WWE were unquestionably fully behind, and he got put into a main event angle with Cena. It seems more like they tries really hard to keep him over than that they tried to bury him. I think that Zack is someone who connects really well people in pretaped segments and videos but that he loses people in live events and matches. Zack is not someone who proves that making yourself popular on your own is pointless but proof that getting yourself over online does not necessarily translate to getting yourself over in ring. He got put into a main event angle with Cena where he was made to look like a moron. Not sure how exactly that was supposed to help him.
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Jiren
Patti Mayonnaise
Hearts Bayformers
Posts: 35,163
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Post by Jiren on Jul 26, 2014 20:58:12 GMT -5
The promotion's job is making money out of the talent. Bottom line. If someone is so over the crowd is chanting over a WWE Legend (in the truest sense) and a legit Hollywood star, you protect them, ride it out, see where it goes.You don't undercut them. If Zack can't talk... well help him. In the meantime, do pre-recorded interviews, so you can direct him. Hell, do five minute Raw is Z! True Long Island Story segments, mimicking his webshow. His ring work is nothing special, but he can put on a decent mtch, and is very carriable by the guys who are great in the ring. Keep him going until the fans aren't buying his stuff, and you'll have at least a semi-credible guy to throw into feuds/tag teams/storylines. Dude you're thinking logically WWE doesn't think logically
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Venti
Unicron
Posts: 2,995
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Post by Venti on Jul 26, 2014 21:59:57 GMT -5
Im glad these threads happen five times a week, because the more of that Kane gif the better.
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phen0m2112
Trap-Jaw
Advocating for the Devil since 1968.
Posts: 309
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Post by phen0m2112 on Jul 27, 2014 2:37:05 GMT -5
You can see the exact moment Ryder's career died right.....here That's what you get for working too stiff.
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Post by gnr123 on Jul 27, 2014 7:34:36 GMT -5
The Zack Ryder story is an odd one to say the least. He got over with the internet crowd, fans chanted his name, and he won a US Championship. The thing is though, he sucks. And, one he his ceiling as a midcard champion (he was never going to be main eventer) the only place to go was down. Could he be in a Sntino role, I wouldn't mind it. But, I think Zack Ryder would. That's the problem, he stinks and he attitude doesn't help. He could go down to developmental and worl on his in-ring work and promo work. But, nope. He'll continue to whine about his spot and complain that he's not pushed.
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Jul 27, 2014 7:57:36 GMT -5
Zack Ryder was a guy who couldn't speak on a live mic to save his life and we must remember, the segments he was in on Raw always did awful ratings. Implying that even though live audiences cheered for him, there was a big portion of the audience who either didn't get him or legit thought he was annoying and changed the channel
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 8:17:33 GMT -5
Zack Ryder was a guy who couldn't speak on a live mic to save his life and we must remember, the segments he was in on Raw always did awful ratings. Implying that even though live audiences cheered for him, there was a big portion of the audience who either didn't get him or legit thought he was annoying and changed the channel The problem with that is that Nielsen ratings only help out advertisers, it's not a legitimate or accurate way to measure who's viewing what and never has been. S'all a myth. A legit x million people don't watch those segments, one person represents x thousand people, so it's a flawed and unrepresentative system to ever put stock in. And with the notion that he didn't draw in certain segments, most segments he had included other wrestlers, be they Dolph Ziggler, CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, Kane, John Cena, Eve etc. So they have to share the blame even if the flawed TV rating approach is stuck to. In my eyes (as a complete anti-Ryder person) he did okay with single line promos and catchphrase deliveries, he never SHOULD have had huge amounts of promo time, but he got continually cheered in matches. So him playing Doofus McDoofy who had no backbone in backstage drama segments designed to put John Cena & Kane & Eve over in a pointless way whilst they waited for 'Mania to come round was pretty odd. Again, I reiterate that I am not a Ryder fan in the slightest, the guy in character makes me shudder from how obnoxious he is, and outside of WWECW his matches didn't entertain me (the fans responded to them greatly though). He sold more merchandise than the company ever expected of him, and due to a combination of booking/his own bad attitude/a lack of ability for the company to work to people's strengths his continued chances of pulling major profits fell. No business should be ruining their profit margins like that.
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Jul 27, 2014 8:21:32 GMT -5
Zack Ryder was a guy who couldn't speak on a live mic to save his life and we must remember, the segments he was in on Raw always did awful ratings. Implying that even though live audiences cheered for him, there was a big portion of the audience who either didn't get him or legit thought he was annoying and changed the channel The problem with that is that Nielsen ratings only help out advertisers, it's not a legitimate or accurate way to measure who's viewing what and never has been. S'all a myth. A legit x million people don't watch those segments, one person represents x thousand people, so it's a flawed and unrepresentative system to ever put stock in. And with the notion that he didn't draw in certain segments, most segments he had included other wrestlers, be they Dolph Ziggler, CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, Kane, John Cena, Eve etc. So they have to share the blame even if the flawed TV rating approach is stuck to. In my eyes (as a complete anti-Ryder person) he did okay with single line promos and catchphrase deliveries, he never SHOULD have had huge amounts of promo time, but he got continually cheered in matches. So him playing Doofus McDoofy who had no backbone in backstage drama segments designed to put John Cena & Kane & Eve over in a pointless way whilst they waited for 'Mania to come round was pretty odd. Again, I reiterate that I am not a Ryder fan in the slightest, the guy in character makes me shudder from how obnoxious he is, and outside of WWECW his matches didn't entertain me (the fans responded to them greatly though). He sold more merchandise than the company ever expected of him, and due to a combination of booking/his own bad attitude/a lack of ability for the company to work to people's strengths his continued chances of pulling major profits fell. No business should be ruining their profit margins like that. But there are some clear factors that have to be considered in terms of ratings. For example, the CM Punk vs Tensai/Bryan main event from Raw was the only main event in 15 years to lose viewers during the overrun. People wanted to blame Tensai entirely, but his main event with Cena only a couple weeks later gained 550,000ish viewers so he can't get all the blame. Ryder consistently did poorly in the ratings so that can't be written off as "Well maybe it's not him" so easily
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 8:34:17 GMT -5
The problem with that is that Nielsen ratings only help out advertisers, it's not a legitimate or accurate way to measure who's viewing what and never has been. S'all a myth. A legit x million people don't watch those segments, one person represents x thousand people, so it's a flawed and unrepresentative system to ever put stock in. And with the notion that he didn't draw in certain segments, most segments he had included other wrestlers, be they Dolph Ziggler, CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, Kane, John Cena, Eve etc. So they have to share the blame even if the flawed TV rating approach is stuck to. In my eyes (as a complete anti-Ryder person) he did okay with single line promos and catchphrase deliveries, he never SHOULD have had huge amounts of promo time, but he got continually cheered in matches. So him playing Doofus McDoofy who had no backbone in backstage drama segments designed to put John Cena & Kane & Eve over in a pointless way whilst they waited for 'Mania to come round was pretty odd. Again, I reiterate that I am not a Ryder fan in the slightest, the guy in character makes me shudder from how obnoxious he is, and outside of WWECW his matches didn't entertain me (the fans responded to them greatly though). He sold more merchandise than the company ever expected of him, and due to a combination of booking/his own bad attitude/a lack of ability for the company to work to people's strengths his continued chances of pulling major profits fell. No business should be ruining their profit margins like that. But there are some clear factors that have to be considered in terms of ratings. For example, the CM Punk vs Tensai/Bryan main event from Raw was the only main event in 15 years to lose viewers during the overrun. People wanted to blame Tensai entirely, but his main event with Cena only a couple weeks later gained 550,000ish viewers so he can't get all the blame. Ryder consistently did poorly in the ratings so that can't be written off as "Well maybe it's not him" so easily Again though, the Nielsen ratings aren't accurate in any regard, especially when more viewers have access to more channels but few more people have the boxes to register the ratings. 550,000ish viewers isn't 550,000ish viewers. It's more akin to 5,000/50,000 people with Nielsen boxes who went "maybe give this a shot", and even then, the quarter hour ratings don't mean they watched for all 15 minutes or whatnot. Even then, you have to consider if the segments prior drew the fans then. And for overruns are the shows coming on next attracting the audience there rather than the segment? Etc etc. Tons of threads there. It's why viewing/rating measurements are bollocks to look at as fans, as for one they don't matter, and to those that do matter (marketers etc) they still recognize them as wildly inaccurate and only good because it's the only system to mark up what's worth paying for, even if it's outdated by more than two decades and largely useless. I mean, I disliked the guy, but he sold merchandise and got fans to pay for tickets, so the accurate rating of x units sold/x fans saying they're coming to see Ryder is a more solid thing to me over figures which are hyper inflated/only there to tell companies considering paying for ad space what money should be offered.
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Jul 27, 2014 9:06:21 GMT -5
But there are some clear factors that have to be considered in terms of ratings. For example, the CM Punk vs Tensai/Bryan main event from Raw was the only main event in 15 years to lose viewers during the overrun. People wanted to blame Tensai entirely, but his main event with Cena only a couple weeks later gained 550,000ish viewers so he can't get all the blame. Ryder consistently did poorly in the ratings so that can't be written off as "Well maybe it's not him" so easily Again though, the Nielsen ratings aren't accurate in any regard, especially when more viewers have access to more channels but few more people have the boxes to register the ratings. 550,000ish viewers isn't 550,000ish viewers. It's more akin to 5,000/50,000 people with Nielsen boxes who went "maybe give this a shot", and even then, the quarter hour ratings don't mean they watched for all 15 minutes or whatnot. Even then, you have to consider if the segments prior drew the fans then. And for overruns are the shows coming on next attracting the audience there rather than the segment? Etc etc. Tons of threads there. It's why viewing/rating measurements are bollocks to look at as fans, as for one they don't matter, and to those that do matter (marketers etc) they still recognize them as wildly inaccurate and only good because it's the only system to mark up what's worth paying for, even if it's outdated by more than two decades and largely useless. I mean, I disliked the guy, but he sold merchandise and got fans to pay for tickets, so the accurate rating of x units sold/x fans saying they're coming to see Ryder is a more solid thing to me over figures which are hyper inflated/only there to tell companies considering paying for ad space what money should be offered. Considering the average age of WWE's audience, it wouldn't shock me if older people never understood Zack Ryder and were turned off by him
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 10:33:15 GMT -5
Again though, the Nielsen ratings aren't accurate in any regard, especially when more viewers have access to more channels but few more people have the boxes to register the ratings. 550,000ish viewers isn't 550,000ish viewers. It's more akin to 5,000/50,000 people with Nielsen boxes who went "maybe give this a shot", and even then, the quarter hour ratings don't mean they watched for all 15 minutes or whatnot. Even then, you have to consider if the segments prior drew the fans then. And for overruns are the shows coming on next attracting the audience there rather than the segment? Etc etc. Tons of threads there. It's why viewing/rating measurements are bollocks to look at as fans, as for one they don't matter, and to those that do matter (marketers etc) they still recognize them as wildly inaccurate and only good because it's the only system to mark up what's worth paying for, even if it's outdated by more than two decades and largely useless. I mean, I disliked the guy, but he sold merchandise and got fans to pay for tickets, so the accurate rating of x units sold/x fans saying they're coming to see Ryder is a more solid thing to me over figures which are hyper inflated/only there to tell companies considering paying for ad space what money should be offered. Considering the average age of WWE's audience, it wouldn't shock me if older people never understood Zack Ryder and were turned off by him Oh same, I mean I know the guy worked hard but I never liked his videos either, so I'm sure tons of people didn't get it/were turned off him the same way, just happened to slot into a decent sized niche to sell his character and his merch to I suppose.
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Post by N E O G E O B O Y S on Jul 27, 2014 11:41:07 GMT -5
I don't think that the WWE tried to sabotage Ryder, the problem was that they tried to book him as a loser underdog who has to fight against all to get to the top, the problem was that their idea didn't worked because after winning the US title, he didn't do anything with it, and overall the angle with cena kane and EVE was so badly wrote that damaged most the wrestler who was less established.
Then at WM they just flat out buried him in order to get EVE over as a heel.
It was more a case that they don't know how to write a character like Ryder than a case of lol wwe hates him because he got over without them
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