Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Jul 30, 2014 1:50:50 GMT -5
^if those guys are hungrier, more competitive, better, etc. Then of course they deserve better pushes and to be higher up the card. But again that doesn't mean these other guys should be nobodies. Those guys do work hard as well. Hell those new guys should be feuding with the likes of Ryder on their way to the top. I and other fans with a similar mindset just want to be able to enjoy the work of those we like. Even if, there's still the problem with making people nobodies which is directly against the plan to keep people valid. Using, for example- Alberto Del Rio as an example. Clearly, he doesn't have IT to be a top guy and never will. He's talented in every way except for one thing: The fans just aren't buying what he's selling and in all likeliness, they never will. On paper, this is the type of upper midcarder who should be used now to build up the momentum and popularity of guys on the lower end- your Zack Ryder/Alex Riley/etc. lowercarders to help solidify them, your Adam Rose/Bo Dallas types who just debuted, or guys on NXT. Your plan, though, would have him keep his Wheel of Aggression going, just destroying midcarders and lower and just losing to guys like Dolph Ziggler or Sheamus- which is the same thing we already have and which does no one any favors.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jul 30, 2014 2:07:02 GMT -5
^if those guys are hungrier, more competitive, better, etc. Then of course they deserve better pushes and to be higher up the card. But again that doesn't mean these other guys should be nobodies. Those guys do work hard as well. Hell those new guys should be feuding with the likes of Ryder on their way to the top. I and other fans with a similar mindset just want to be able to enjoy the work of those we like. Even if, there's still the problem with making people nobodies which is directly against the plan to keep people valid. Using, for example- Alberto Del Rio as an example. Clearly, he doesn't have IT to be a top guy and never will. He's talented in every way except for one thing: The fans just aren't buying what he's selling and in all likeliness, they never will. On paper, this is the type of upper midcarder who should be used now to build up the momentum and popularity of guys on the lower end- your Zack Ryder/Alex Riley/etc. lowercarders to help solidify them, your Adam Rose/Bo Dallas types who just debuted, or guys on NXT. Your plan, though, would have him keep his Wheel of Aggression going, just destroying midcarders and lower and just losing to guys like Dolph Ziggler or Sheamus- which is the same thing we already have and which does no one any favors. The Wheel of Aggression stuff would be toned down. A guy like Del Rio would spend more time on his back. He isn't going to lose to Bo Dallas or Adam Rose, at least not cleanly, but he'd still put over the younger talents that WWE wants to position in the uppercard, like Ambrose, Reigns or Cesaro. Del Rio's matches would not be squashes and lower end guys would look strong in a loss. Also lower end guys would spend more time fighting each other and racking up W's against each other so that a higher end guy going over them means a bit more or that they would have the credibility to realistically beat a guy like Del Rio in the future once it's been established that they indeed can win matches. Also under my model, Guys like Zack Ryder, Alex Riley, Damien Sandow, R-Truth, would be returned to their former glories (the highest levels they respectively attained) so they would not be so far beneath Del Rio that he would flat out dominate them. This idea is more for their benefit really. That way even if they kept Alex Riley as a jobber for life, he'd only be jobbing to someone like Seth Rollins or TheDemonKane and not getting run over by Bull Dempsey or something like that
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2014 4:08:58 GMT -5
It's still a fall from the status level he was supposedly on but 10 months ago (upper midcard, verging on main event), given the midcard is largely non-existent outside of upper-midcard, verging on main eventers he's become the comedy heel. The same thing happened to Ryder, because he dropped from the comedy midcard babyface champion who got a midcard title win...and then was dropped down until he was off TV for months at a time. The company needs to fix it's divisions and fix it's time keeping, there's no reason a blossoming star like Sandow should be dipping into kayfabe comedy waters, there's no reason one of the single most popular wrestlers to the live audience at one time in Ryder should be off TV for most of the year, there's no reason why THE babyface of late 2012/early 2013 in Ryback should be in a tag team with captain nobody, there's no reason why a once kayfabe over monster in Sheamus (Triple H feud, retiring Jamie Noble, beating JOhn Cena for the title in a gimmick match) has been shoehorned into roles which have destroyed his ability to main event again. And that's before you look at guys like JTG who were not put on TV once for half a decade despite being more than capable. A sheer waste of talent. That's where the WWE wastes potential. It happens too frequently to too many wrestlers, the WWE isn't flexible enough and seems to cut off their nose to spite their own face a lot of the time. With some people like R-Truth (synthetic weed) and Regal (non-prescribed drugs) it's not the companies fault for ruining major pushes, but for the guys who seem to be wasted it's just...bad form. I mean, half of the people I mentioned in this post I don't even like, but I like when fans are into wrestlers, I like boos/cheers and a mix of characters on every show. Again, this doesn't mean WWE is "wasting potential." Some wrestlers have limits that are not conducive to, say, the main event. Ryback being a good example of that. As I've said, it's INCREDIBLY easy to be an armchair booker and judge everything WWE does regarding handling talent. But the way they are now with NXT, their feeder system is HUNGRY. They don't have time to hold everybody's hands and baby them and nurse them. This is why Cena is still #1. He works harder than everybody else and nobody can deny that. So the harder people work, the more they'll be rewarded, IF there is space. All the current top talent on Raw, SD and NXT ARE the hardest workers in WWE today. So it's not like the system is broken or anything. Some fans just can't come to terms with the fact that their favourite wrestlers aren't as competitive or work hard enough, etc. I think you misread, I wasn't suggesting that they are all main eventers, I was speaking on why the midcard is dead. There should be a constant turnaround of main eventers, upper midcarders, midcarders, tag teams etc. The current roster is capable of that. There's no room for them and with a lack of time management/support for those not in possible future main event spots it wastes people. The systems broken, and with a lack of rotation of the roster it just feels odd to say the system's fine but the wrestlers are the problem. Sometimes the wrestlers are (as I mentioned in my post with Truth/Regal) but usually not.
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Jiren
Patti Mayonnaise
Hearts Bayformers
Posts: 35,163
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Post by Jiren on Jul 30, 2014 5:01:47 GMT -5
Sort the damn divisions out, that'd help
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Jul 30, 2014 6:46:09 GMT -5
So, what's the solution? More midcard storylines? More wins Those things, plus if a guy (say like Ziggler) gets more over than Del Rio, which is fact, you swap the push. That's pretty much my main complaint about WWE. There's obviously been some really talented guys that never caught on, so I get why they were never pushed. But it infuriates me when WWE has certain pet projects who are not even remotely as over as guys who are not office preferences, and those latter guys are used to feed said pet projects, rather than the other way around . It's ass backwards. I despise it when the office decides who *should* be a star ahead of time, rather than who currently is. If a guy is talented AND the crowd loves him, that's who you push. The office shouldn't get to handpick who does because of size or aesthetics. I think you hit the nail on the head here, Sean. in all the time I've been watching I can't think of many "chosen ones" who ever get over to the degree WWE wanted. the Rock's the only one that comes to mind, and that only happened after his initial push failed badly and they just let him go out there and do whatever instead. even Orton spent about 5-6 years in "who gives a shit?" land before he became the Viper; even then he's nowhere near being the face of the company that Vince/Steph/whoever ordained him when he debuted. and that's not even getting into the likes of Lashley, Ken Kennedy or Drew McIntyre. I do worry a bit for Roman Reigns because he's got all the tools but I keep thinking they're going to push him at the expense of others and people are going to start resenting him. then he'll just be Sheamus again.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2014 6:47:56 GMT -5
For most of the roster to be used regularly and given storylines, WWE would have to get away from the 12+ PPVs a year model.
Right now on RAW, you don't get a storyline or feud unless it's a build to a PPV match.
If there were just 4 PPVs a year again, there'd be room for the PPV feud guys to not interact every week, freeing up room for "lesser" feuds that wouldn't necessarily have a PPV match.
They can't just all be shoveled off to a separate show either, they need to be spread amongst the regular card. Else no one's going to watch.
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Jul 30, 2014 6:55:34 GMT -5
TV shows ARE a series of individuals competing over spots. They're called casting calls/auditions. Not when the auditions are done and the show is actually filming. WWE's environment would be like the cast of Game of Thrones constantly trying to upstage/backstab one another in hopes that George Martin is pressured to write their respective characters into getting the Iron Throne. now I've got the image of Shawn Michaels pulling his whiny 90s schtick with George RR Martin and getting killed off in a brutal manner.
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Post by Slammy Award-Winning Cannibal on Jul 30, 2014 7:25:46 GMT -5
Again, this doesn't mean WWE is "wasting potential." Some wrestlers have limits that are not conducive to, say, the main event. Ryback being a good example of that. As I've said, it's INCREDIBLY easy to be an armchair booker and judge everything WWE does regarding handling talent. But the way they are now with NXT, their feeder system is HUNGRY. They don't have time to hold everybody's hands and baby them and nurse them. This is why Cena is still #1. He works harder than everybody else and nobody can deny that. So the harder people work, the more they'll be rewarded, IF there is space. All the current top talent on Raw, SD and NXT ARE the hardest workers in WWE today. So it's not like the system is broken or anything. Some fans just can't come to terms with the fact that their favourite wrestlers aren't as competitive or work hard enough, etc. I think you misread, I wasn't suggesting that they are all main eventers, I was speaking on why the midcard is dead. There should be a constant turnaround of main eventers, upper midcarders, midcarders, tag teams etc. The current roster is capable of that. There's no room for them and with a lack of time management/support for those not in possible future main event spots it wastes people. The systems broken, and with a lack of rotation of the roster it just feels odd to say the system's fine but the wrestlers are the problem. Sometimes the wrestlers are (as I mentioned in my post with Truth/Regal) but usually not. Yeah I think the midcard feels dead because the titles have been made to seem worthless. Who knew in 2014 that the Tag Titles would hold more weight than the IC belt?
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