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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Sept 19, 2014 10:14:24 GMT -5
We all turned sour on Jim for his decisions when running ring of honor, product wise and the way he handled Steen and those guys, but thanks to hindsight, let's reevaluate his actions, there may be truth in his words.
1. Kevin Steen. Steen said that Cornette just wanted to bury him, but when Delirious (the co booker) wanted to made him champion Jim didn't fight the decision, hell you might even say that his program with Jim elevated him to the main event scene, not his feud with Generico, I wish somebody would bury me by making me world champion. I'll give it to Steen by being mad that Cornette told him to sit out for 6 months, but his departure actually made the angle look legit, he wanted for Kevin to lose weight and look more professional, Steen tried but actually got fatter. When talking about Steen in a shoot, Cornette said he was a pain in the ass, but admitted that Kevin was a great wrestler with great psychology but if he didn't lose weight, he wouldn't make it to the next level....have you seen Kevin recently? He's looking better and better everyday. Ironically when it appeared that Cornette buried Steen he actually helped him.
2. Generico. Missy Hyatt and Lance Storm were talking about Generico on twitter, Brutal Bob Evans actually chimed in and told them that Cornette loved Generico's selling calling him the best babyface he ever saw but he didn't liked the mask. Jim told Generico that ROH's top babyface and world champion couldn't wear a mask and not cut promos, not just in roh but if he wanted to go to the major leagues he needed to lose the mask. Generico didn't accept it and Cornette stop using him, now he's in wwe without the mask, hmmm maybe all it was needed was more money to convince him.
3. Colt Cabana. Funny don't draw money, I agree and disagree, it can draw money just not main event money. Colt just was stubborn to change, explain to me why he was the hottest free agent in 2011, but not a single major indy, japan, or tna used him? The nwa deal was a failure, I partially blame him for not using his social media empire to promote himself more aggressive, it was almost as he didn't believe he was good enough to carry the belt. His matches in NOAH except against Kenta and Marufuji weren't that good, like he expects everyone to adapt to his style. Not even pwg which matches his humor used him, czw just put him in a meaningless match against Greg Excellent. Maybe he's too expensive for the indys. All I know is Cabana is good enough to be champion anywhere but he just doesn't want to.
4 Booking philosophy. Jim was in a tough spot he couldn't cater only to smarks, Sinclair is a television company, they wanted to get more fans, kinda like Kenny King said "we already got you motherf***ers you're gonna watch no matter what", so by "simplifying"storylines. Maybe the quality wasn't as good in our standards, but he was after casual fans. His mentality of having almost mma matches didn't work, but he took a chance with what was hot at the time.
5. Not developing new stars. During the first months of his tenure he lost the biggest babyface on the indies at the time, Tyler Black. It wasn't either Jim's or Tyler's fault, I blame Adam Pearce for not pulling the trigger with Black years before that, if we go earlier than that, it also caused Gabe's firing, he wanted Tyler as champion not Jerry Lynn. So Tyler leaving so suddenly created a vacuum, Roderick Strong wasnt built yet to defeat him, it was rushed. I credit him for helping Davey. Richards during 2010-2011 was the hottest thing on he indies, he was roh champ and new japan jr champ, new japan is very selective with their booking of gaijins (ask elgin). I blame him for not using Cole, Kyle and Elgin though.
5.alienation of the smarks. He wanted to keep run it Philly and NYC but Sinclair didn't wanted too because they weren't on their tv market. So roh didn't ran shows there, causing the loyal fanbase to resent them. And the f***ing ippvs debacle, if go fight live didn't ruined them, would we be talking about his tenure different? He also wanted to improve the commentary, he wanted to have Pearce do it with Kevin Kelly, but Ross an roh employee buried Pearce to the company and threaten to go to human resources because adam threaten to punch him. Nigel and Corino have been great though.
Yeah cornette did bad things, but by looking at his administration with perspective he was right about a lot of things.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Sept 19, 2014 10:31:47 GMT -5
On Generico, Cornette asked him to put on more size and cut better promos. He doesn't, but when he goes to WWE, he puts on more size and cuts better promos. In Jim Cornette's words, well wouldn't you know who won the pony?
Jim also has this concept that a lot of guys didn't seem to like. We can't miss you if you won't go away.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Sept 19, 2014 10:44:23 GMT -5
Cornette's problem was he tried to mold ROH into Smokey Mountain Wrestling. You had a deep and talented roster basically forced into roles and style that was not beneficial to them nor the company. Adam Cole was tearing it up as the Panama City Playboy. Cornette paired him with Kyle O'Reilly, stripped of his personality, and made into a white bread version of the Thrill Seekers. He put on the top of the card 3 guys who pretty much looked and had the same bland personality (Richards, Edwards, and Strong) which folks call the Clone Wars. While the matches were good to great, no one had any investment in the competitors. The larger than left characters disappeared and so did the wrestling action that brought in the fans. Cornette failed to realize that ROH's fanbase may liked watching old SMW shows, they didn't want their ROH turned into a southern indy. He also failed to recognize why the fans would flock to the side of the anti-authority and crude Kevin Steen instead of his Dudley Do Right, Davey Richards.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Sept 19, 2014 11:36:26 GMT -5
I agree with the clone wars and the Dudley do right comment, great line dude, but in Jim's defense regarding Future Shock, nobody on the indies used them to their full potential, f*** they even teamed in pwg and were more generic than the create a wrestler templates, Cole always looked goofy trying to do Kyle's bjj submission moves. It wasn't until his promo before bola 12 that he became a credible main eventer, before that he was bland as f***, only czw kinda used him good as their jr champ with Mia Yim.
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Post by chazzbusby on Sept 19, 2014 12:37:30 GMT -5
I think Cornette, deep down, has the best intentions and often has good common sense when it comes to booking decisions. He can point out the flaws in modern day booking decisions and speaks sense when telling us why said booking is terrible.
His downside is that, in trying to present an alternative to those modern booking ideas, he can't help but offer up a product/storylines straight out of the olden days. He's too set in his ways and not open enough to the changing world of the wrestling business.
He's passionate and stubborn but means well. He just seems unable/unwilling to adapt and that's why he alienates people but I do think if he was part of a booking committee with the right people he could be a strong opinion to the contrary when something stupid is suggested.
Everyone has their flaws. I just wish they'd all realise it and work together to bring together all their good points to the better of the business.
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Post by JTG Fan on Sept 19, 2014 12:40:54 GMT -5
No, Smoky Mountain of Honor was pretty shitty overall.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Sept 19, 2014 13:46:49 GMT -5
I think comparing it to smoky mountain is unfair, their audience will all due respect were "rednecks" who believed it was real along with the viewers in the area, Jim catered to them so he had to write it that way, good vs evil cheesy angles (although Brian Lee vs Kevin Sullivan was awesome, Kevin spiked him like 23 times, they sold it as if he was death, Bob Armstrog even did CPR to Lee).
If Cornette would've book for an internet audience, the product would've been diferent, but we weren't sinclair's target demo, they only care about their tv potential new viewers.
Sinclair never gave a f*** about us, they changed the logo, they stopped running Philly and New York, they only care about saving money not quality of the product (prove of that was when they used gfl for their ippvs despite their track record only because they were cheap, they don't even pay for good lighting.) They insulted our intelligence by not admitting their mistakes with ippvs, they had the Patrick Edwards guy insulting our intelligence being condescending. I even heard a rumor that they wanted to end their DVDs market just to save money. They charged the tickets really high.
I'm sorry I think Jim didn't screwed roh, Sinclair screwed roh. Like tna before them, a money mark can't run a succesful wrestling company.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2014 16:44:31 GMT -5
{Spoiler}We all turned sour on Jim for his decisions when running ring of honor, product wise and the way he handled Steen and those guys, but thanks to hindsight, let's reevaluate his actions, there may be truth in his words.
1. Kevin Steen. Steen said that Cornette just wanted to bury him, but when Delirious (the co booker) wanted to made him champion Jim didn't fight the decision, hell you might even say that his program with Jim elevated him to the main event scene, not his feud with Generico, I wish somebody would bury me by making me world champion. I'll give it to Steen by being mad that Cornette told him to sit out for 6 months, but his departure actually made the angle look legit, he wanted for Kevin to lose weight and look more professional, Steen tried but actually got fatter. When talking about Steen in a shoot, Cornette said he was a pain in the ass, but admitted that Kevin was a great wrestler with great psychology but if he didn't lose weight, he wouldn't make it to the next level....have you seen Kevin recently? He's looking better and better everyday. Ironically when it appeared that Cornette buried Steen he actually helped him. I agree. I think Kevin Steen's push is one of the all time great wrestling (independent at least) storylines ever and is the first thing I think of when I see people burying Cornette's ROH run. I wasn't in love with everything he did but there's something to be said for Cornette to play such an important role in the story in spite of him and Steen disliking each other so much. For as much as he's written off as a bitter traditionalist, I think this angle shows he's not as close-minded as people perceive. Those segments where Steen would show up and just stir chaos were pure bliss. {Spoiler}2. Generico. Missy Hyatt and Lance Storm were talking about Generico on twitter, Brutal Bob Evans actually chimed in and told them that Cornette loved Generico's selling calling him the best babyface he ever saw but he didn't liked the mask. Jim told Generico that ROH's top babyface and world champion couldn't wear a mask and not cut promos, not just in roh but if he wanted to go to the major leagues he needed to lose the mask. Generico didn't accept it and Cornette stop using him, now he's in wwe without the mask, hmmm maybe all it was needed was more money to convince him. I think Cornette was wrong here. I get where he's coming from though, El Generico is a really hard character to explain in a reality based promotion. Like why amidst all these intense, serious wrestlers is there this albino Mexican and why is he calling himself El Generico. To a casual viewer I think it can come across too goofy, but on the same token Generico, by the time Cornette got there seemed so ingrained in the ROH fabric that it just seems silly to have gotten rid of him. The gimmick is goofy but I think any new viewers would have gotten over it, and it's not like he was pure comedy as he had one of the most heated feuds they've ever had in ROH. {Spoiler}3. Colt Cabana. Funny don't draw money, I agree and disagree, it can draw money just not main event money. Colt just was stubborn to change, explain to me why he was the hottest free agent in 2011, but not a single major indy, japan, or tna used him? The nwa deal was a failure, I partially blame him for not using his social media empire to promote himself more aggressive, it was almost as he didn't believe he was good enough to carry the belt. His matches in NOAH except against Kenta and Marufuji weren't that good, like he expects everyone to adapt to his style. Not even pwg which matches his humor used him, czw just put him in a meaningless match against Greg Excellent. Maybe he's too expensive for the indys. All I know is Cabana is good enough to be champion anywhere but he just doesn't want to. This is a weird one too because Colt Cabana, like Generico was synonymous with ROH at the time Cornette came in and also like Generico, his last major involvement in ROH was in the Generico/Steen feud where everyone involved played it 100% seriously. Colt's prerogative in ROH was never strictly comedy. He'll be funny between feuds but when business picks up he knows when to turn it off. It almost seemed like they couldn't work together simply based on their stance on the phrase "funny doesn't draw money", when neither of them really play 100% one way or the other in their work. {Spoiler}4 Booking philosophy. Jim was in a tough spot he couldn't cater only to smarks, Sinclair is a television company, they wanted to get more fans, kinda like Kenny King said "we already got you motherf***ers you're gonna watch no matter what", so by "simplifying"storylines. Maybe the quality wasn't as good in our standards, but he was after casual fans. His mentality of having almost mma matches didn't work, but he took a chance with what was hot at the time. I personally really liked Cornette's ROH. Of course it's always hard to tell who wrote what but stuff like Jay Lethal's "killer instinct" and, though many won't agree I'm sure I really liked the Richards/Edwards feud. He played on Russo's always touted concept of "shades of grey" with his feuds but without forgetting that you need someone to root for. I liked the way he had Richards/Edwards treating each other kind of shitty, but when you hear them explain themselves you can see both sides so it's not just two despicable guys being awful as the commentary tells you what to think. It was definitely different, there were old school elements I could have done without, one thing that always sticks in my mind is one "Inside ROH" segment where they made a thing out of an angle they did at a house show with the Briscoes and some shitty local DJ that had to have meant nothing to anyone, even people in attendance, but ROH played it up like this needed to be seen. My point being there were good things and bad things but I never found it to be the departure that everyone says it is. {Spoiler}5. Not developing new stars. During the first months of his tenure he lost the biggest babyface on the indies at the time, Tyler Black. It wasn't either Jim's or Tyler's fault, I blame Adam Pearce for not pulling the trigger with Black years before that, if we go earlier than that, it also caused Gabe's firing, he wanted Tyler as champion not Jerry Lynn. So Tyler leaving so suddenly created a vacuum, Roderick Strong wasnt built yet to defeat him, it was rushed. I credit him for helping Davey. Richards during 2010-2011 was the hottest thing on he indies, he was roh champ and new japan jr champ, new japan is very selective with their booking of gaijins (ask elgin). I blame him for not using Cole, Kyle and Elgin though. I disagree with this. Adam Cole got a PPV main event pin on Davey Richards under Cornette. Kyle O'Reilly & Fish formed ReDRagon under Cornette, while it seemed pretty obvious that he Elgin positioned to gain some serious momentum as part of the House of Truth. Tomasso Ciampa made his name during his run too. I never understood why Cornette became such a villain for his time in ROH. He made disagreeable decisions, absolutely, but he always has a reasonable explanation for them even if you don't agree. I can understand people being disappointed with changes but he in no way bastardized the company. Considering the company has shifted ownership and is trying to expand it's actually quite amazing how much they've been able to stay as true to their premise as they have.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Sept 19, 2014 16:54:36 GMT -5
I think Jim got heat because he stop giving interviews during that time in order not to bury the company he worked in, so he didn't defend himself against the criticisms, fans thought that he was behind everything, apart from booking, even the bad business decisions.
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Post by AnActualBear on Sept 19, 2014 16:55:02 GMT -5
After listening to the Kayfabe Commentaries shoot he did where he explained just how f***ed up things were backstage at that time, I don't blame Cornette one bit. Every idea he proposed was basically shot down, and they downgraded production so much that it made the shows look awful. He had a lot of ideas about setting up a school to train guys and also having a permanent place to shoot TV, but it never materialised for whatever reason.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2014 17:12:50 GMT -5
I can't take Cornette's finger pointing seriously until he points the finger at himself at least once. Whether it's ROH or TNA or WCW or WWF or SMW, literally everything was someone else's fault according to Cornette.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Sept 19, 2014 17:39:55 GMT -5
I can't take Cornette's finger pointing seriously until he points the finger at himself at least once. Whether it's ROH or TNA or WCW or WWF or SMW, literally everything was someone else's fault according to Cornette. He has too big of an ego, but he has admitted guilt during his career. On SMW he said that he f***ed up thinking a territory could survive, and that he pushed the wrong guys (like Brian Lee and Tracy Smothers). In TNA, he called himself a hypocrite by having to work with Russo and being polite with him so that he kept his job. In ROH he admits that his booking wasn't up to par. He's not like Russo where "the censors f***ed him" and never taking responsibility.
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froggyfrog
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Post by froggyfrog on Sept 19, 2014 19:24:19 GMT -5
You make some good points but I can barely read that 5th point. You change tenses so often I couldn't bring myself to finish reading it.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Sept 19, 2014 19:27:18 GMT -5
You make some good points but I can barely read that 5th point. You change tenses so often I couldn't bring myself to finish reading it. Sorry man, Jim Ross taught me english lol, nah just that Sinclair alienated the core audience, and Cornette took the blame for it.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Sept 19, 2014 20:10:08 GMT -5
So a couple of things were brought up.
One was Adam Cole tearing it up as the Panama City Playboy, and I think this is a huge difference between the mindset of many ROH fans and Jim Cornette. Many ROH fans, at least I feel, think about 5 months from now. Jim Cornette thinks 5 years from now. So take Adam Cole. When Cornette was around in 2009-2010, how old was he at the time? 20, 21? So like, you have these young guy, why not start him up as a plucky, good looking baby face at first, and have him develop a persona. See, bringing him in as the Panama City Playboy is thinking 5 months in advance. Jim was thinking, where will Adam Cole be 5 years from now. So if you start him off like this, then you have a lot more places to go and you have a lot more to build to. That's why he was so big on pushing Mike Bennett, which he talked about on his podcast. He didn't see him as a big star 5 months from when he debuted. Again, he was looking for a main eventer 5 years from now, and wanted to start early with building him.
With El Generico, as much as I liked the gimmick, it was an opening match gimmick at best. It's funny Sami Zayn is in NXT as himself, because they have gimmicks similar to El Generico in NXT, like the Vaudevillians for instance. That's an opening match gimmick. Cornette has put over Generico as being the best seller he's seen since the days of Ricky Morton. So he has a guy who won't relent, who won't give up on this gimmick that looks good on the indies when guys come in once a month to certain areas, but Jim's looking to build a nationally televised program. I guarantee that Sami Zayn under Jim Cornette would have been ROH World Champion, no question.
So yeah, I guess it was a little slower pace, but again, Jim was looking to build a metropolis, and not a village. It takes time, and people didn't want to see 5 years down the road. They wanted 5 months down the road. He has complained about the ROH fans, one recently talking about Dan Severn. He brought him in when Eddie Edwards was champion and sent Eddie to do some camps with Dan (which apparently Eddie loved). And the fans shit all over him. This guy is like, a UFC legend and could beat up half the roster, even at his age, and he ended up apologizing to Severn after the whole deal.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2014 20:17:46 GMT -5
Is it wise to book individual wrestlers in ROH with a five year plan in mind? Realistically if a guy's that good there's a high chance he'll get snatched up within a few years. A five year plan is great for WWE where most guys aren't going anywhere, but the ROHs of the world need to be a bit more short-sighted.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Sept 19, 2014 20:29:50 GMT -5
Is it wise to book individual wrestlers in ROH with a five year plan in mind? Realistically if a guy's that good there's a high chance he'll get snatched up within a few years. A five year plan is great for WWE where most guys aren't going anywhere, but the ROHs of the world need to be a bit more short-sighted. Or they get built up, snatched up by WWE or TNA, they get bigger, and then they come back and they're bigger stars. Guys like AJ Styles, The Addiction, Jay Lethal, Matt Sydal. Or, WWE doesn't snatch them up, and you build up ROH with your current stars and look to build guys for the future. Maybe 5 years is a little long, though like, Adam Cole has been in ROH for 5 years and he's done so well by working his way up from the bottom as a plucky underdog baby face to the man he has become. If a guy is brought in and thrown into the upper midcard-main event picture, then they can't be main eventers forever. The only place to go from the top is down, and I think that's why they let go of Austin Aries. It's not that he isn't talented, but the only place for him to go after being a two time champion is down. And I feel ROH is one of those places that does a decent job of cycling talent in and out, due to being a big indy, but small national promotion. Sheamus has this problem in WWE. He's brought in, thrown into the main event picture, so the only place for him to go is down. How many people keep saying Randy Orton is so tired and bland? Hell, for awhile, even he had to go down the ladder for a bit. WWE doesn't even have the privilege of what Jim Cornette feels. We can't miss you if you don't leave. Hell, if Colt Cabana wasn't stubborn and came back into ROH when they offered him a chance to comeback after Cornette left, he would have been a mega star. Because he left on one level, and came back on another one. People missed him and because of that, he would come back as a bigger star.
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Post by Mozenrath on Sept 19, 2014 20:32:26 GMT -5
Jim sometimes benefits from hindsight, but I do still think that while he's got a good point on some stuff, his approach has shown its age.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Sept 19, 2014 20:39:52 GMT -5
Jim sometimes benefits from hindsight, but I do still think that while he's got a good point on some stuff, his approach has shown its age. Oh of course, when the Briscoes put their money against another team's money (can't remember who) it was just so cheesy and outdated. But maybe his goal was to book for a casual audience who don't follow ROH, and all they know is WWE. Like I said before, if Jim's main objective was to book for the internet the product would've been different.
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Post by "Playboy" Don Douglas on Sept 19, 2014 22:00:00 GMT -5
I continually hear all these references to turning it into Smoky Mountain Wrestling....and it doesn't sound a damn thing like Smoky Mountain Wrestling.
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