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Post by Hakumental on Dec 23, 2014 9:51:22 GMT -5
I think this is much more like what I said before, that Korra and Asami had plenty of moments that, if given to Korra and a male character, would've easily been construed as "ship teases", or whatever cliche we want to use. Not enough to warrant an Aang/Katara type ending, perhaps, but plenty to warrant a "there's something there, isn't there?", which was basically what the ending said. I disagree. If Asami had been swapped with a male character (Bolin, Tahno, the cabbage merchant, whoever), I still would have said there's nothing of incident to the relationship. "Ship teases" are a dreadful cliche on their own, but probably the greatest harm that they do is encouraging the audience to frame any given character drama in an amorous or outright sexual cast when that is completely irrelevant to the drama. The Avengers community, as you know, is replete with people who say the Tony Stark/Bruce Banner scenes from the first film suggest a romantic attraction - to borrow your words, not a Tony/Pepper type ending, but plenty to warrant a "there's something there, isn't there?" Oh, look how enthusiastic Tony is about meeting Bruce compared to all the other Avengers. Oh, look at Tony's face after Bruce admits he's tried to kill himself before. Oh, look at the Hulk saving Iron Man at the end of the film. Could these two actually have the hots for each other? How could I have missed all these subtle touches on a first viewing? Well, I guess I just personally think you can read those scenes differently. But perhaps I'm just viewing it through a...hetero lens. Really, I just have to laugh at the implication that because I didn't see a same-sex romance coming at the last minute in a show that only ever established heterosexual relationships, it's actually my fault because I chose a "heteronormative perspective" of the show or whatever. No, the qualifications for a good portrayal of romantic tension have to run deeper than two characters "trusting each other deeply", facial reactions, and spending time alone. Unless you'd like to present it as a surreptitious offscreen affair </damiensandow>, in which case this is a good effort indeed. It's why I can't help but wonder if this is more a stunt than a stand, if you know what I mean. But honestly, maybe I'm just getting jaded. I'll be charitable and suggest that perhaps this is just a consequence of, as you say, the budget constraints and stop-start from Nick. Maybe another run through Books 1 and 2 might improve things for me, but even after watching Books 3 and 4 back-to-back, I still felt like I barely knew any of these characters. That's probably the biggest demarcation between LoK and ATLA, for my part. On the lighter side, I love how Bolin became an ordained minister offscreen at some point.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 10:24:37 GMT -5
"....the qualifications for a good portrayal of romantic tension have to run deeper than two characters "trusting each other deeply", facial reactions, and spending time alone."
Sounds like a pretty strong indicator of a potential romantic relationship to me done in a more subtle way (something rarely seen in TV in general, let alone in a kids show). Especially during a time when there's a lot of crazy wartime stuff happening with spirit worlds, benders fighting each other etc etc. Its hard to even have time to process your feelings, especially romantic ones. Heck, even in shows set in normal settings like the Office they frickin BASH you over the head with all the romantic tension so even the densest viewer knows whats happening. They went through a difficult time together and came out on the other end with the realization that there's something between them. Not THAT far-fetched to me. It honestly sounds like a more substantive basis for a budding romance than "OMG HE'S SOOOOOO CUTE!!!" or whatever most other shows do.
Also, I'm not 100% the creators intended it to be read as "they're romantically involved now," I'm just saying if that was the intention it would be that out in left field to me.
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Crimson
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Post by Crimson on Dec 23, 2014 10:48:19 GMT -5
"....the qualifications for a good portrayal of romantic tension have to run deeper than two characters "trusting each other deeply", facial reactions, and spending time alone." Sounds like a pretty strong indicator of a potential romantic relationship to me done in a more subtle way (something rarely seen in TV in general, let alone in a kids show). Especially during a time when there's a lot of crazy wartime stuff happening with spirit worlds, benders fighting each other etc etc. Its hard to even have time to process your feelings, especially romantic ones. Heck, even in shows set in normal settings like the Office they frickin BASH you over the head with all the romantic tension so even the densest viewer knows whats happening. They went through a difficult time together and came out on the other end with the realization that there's something between them. Not THAT far-fetched to me. It honestly sounds like a more substantive basis for a budding romance than "OMG HE'S SOOOOOO CUTE!!!" or whatever most other shows do. Also, I'm not 100% the creators intended it to be read as "they're romantically involved now," I'm just saying if that was the intention it would be that out in left field to me. One interesting trivia/factoid is that had the series remained a 20-episode mini series like it was original visioned, Asami would've eventually been revealed as an Equalist herself and would have turned on the main characters. Nick going back a forth on what they wanted out of the series caused them to "Abridged" the Equalist storyline and nix Asami's heel turn. Honestly, I think the pairing caught on really strongly with the fans and I think the creators took a "Sure, why not?" approach to it.
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Post by Red Impact on Dec 23, 2014 10:55:03 GMT -5
As I never watched this (the setting actively disinterests me) my opinion doesn't carry much weight at all, but I can't help but roll my eyes at yet another physically and mentally capable female character turning out to be not hetero. I don't think it's bad in and of itself, but I do find it tiring that this is a caveat so often applied to "capable" female characters. I'm not entirely sure I understand the critique here. This is series that has always been chock full of "physically and mentally capable" characters, both male and female. Some are more capable than others, yes, but but they've never shied away from makin the entire cast relevent and strong. These are the only two that have been shown to not be hetero, and the physically and mentally capable characters have been in all other forms of relationships. Should the series have broken form and made the non-hetero characters weak and insane if they wanted to do it? As far as the argument for it bein a stunt going, the reason I don't really buy that is two fold. ATLA was a kids show, yes it treated kids like they could understand story, but it was still very much a kids show down to the finale. Korra was always intended for a more mature audience, and this doesn't break tone. They always tackled mor mature themes in Korra, so why is this particular one considered a stunt moreso than the suicide bombing that capped off season 1? The second bit is, if it was a stunt, I don't really get the endgame. The series is over, there's not likely to be another one after all that has occurred. I can get the lack of character development argument, and to that I agree, few of the characters were well developed. That was a problem with the pace of the show and how much it was jerked around by Nick, but I think they set up the increasingly deep relationship between Korra and Asami, it's just different from what we expect because televised romances are always hammered in with all the subtlety of an elephant operating a chainshaw while bouncing on a pogo stick.
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Crimson
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Post by Crimson on Dec 23, 2014 10:58:19 GMT -5
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Post by Hakumental on Dec 23, 2014 11:01:10 GMT -5
"....the qualifications for a good portrayal of romantic tension have to run deeper than two characters "trusting each other deeply", facial reactions, and spending time alone." Sounds like a pretty strong indicator of a potential romantic relationship to me done in a more subtle way (something rarely seen in TV in general, let alone in a kids show). Especially during a time when there's a lot of crazy wartime stuff happening with spirit worlds, benders fighting each other etc etc. Its hard to even have time to process your feelings, especially romantic ones. Heck, even in shows set in normal settings like the Office they frickin BASH you over the head with all the romantic tension so even the densest viewer knows whats happening. They went through a difficult time together and came out on the other end with the realization that there's something between them. Not THAT far-fetched to me. It honestly sounds like a more substantive basis for a budding romance than "OMG HE'S SOOOOOO CUTE!!!" or whatever most other shows do. Also, I'm not 100% the creators intended it to be read as "they're romantically involved now," I'm just saying if that was the intention it would be that out in left field to me. If it gets a passing grade in your book, awesome. I'm aware that I might be asking a lot from what is, in the end, a kid's show. I'm a guy whose kid shows were Gargoyles and Bruce Timm's DC stuff, though, so I don't think the format is unfriendly to strong and clever writing. I should clarify that I don't dislike these two having feelings for each other; I don't have a dog in the shipping wars, but if it's a toss between Asami and Detective Cardboard, I'd say Korra has an easy pick. But I think the portrayal is unconvincing and I take issue with Bryan's condescending suggestion that it's because I'm not wearing the right glasses. I'm more inclined to think it's because the writing didn't get the ball to the endzone.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 11:28:07 GMT -5
As I never watched this (the setting actively disinterests me) my opinion doesn't carry much weight at all, but I can't help but roll my eyes at yet another physically and mentally capable female character turning out to be not hetero. I don't think it's bad in and of itself, but I do find it tiring that this is a caveat so often applied to "capable" female characters. I'm not entirely sure I understand the critique here. This is series that has always been chock full of "physically and mentally capable" characters, both male and female. Some are more capable than others, yes, but but they've never shied away from makin the entire cast relevent and strong. These are the only two that have been shown to not be hetero, and the physically and mentally capable characters have been in all other forms of relationships. Should the series have broken form and made the non-hetero characters weak and insane if they wanted to do it? It's not a critique of this show in particular. I'm not part of the viewing audience of this series so I'm not in the loop about all the writing decisions, but it's how often something like this gets thrown around for female protagonists (in western fictional media at least; I'm not sure how eastern media compares in this regard). I don't know, maybe I'm overestimating this a bit after having spent the last three weeks playing Bioware RPGs, but I swear I see "Capable female? She's got to be bi!" more often than not. Mind you, half of it is the absolute dearth of strong leading females whatsoever. Maybe if that were to be expanded a bit--not an issue with the Avatar series--in western media, it wouldn't stand out to me quite so much.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 11:59:48 GMT -5
I don't know, maybe I'm overestimating this a bit after having spent the last three weeks playing Bioware RPGs, but I swear I see "Capable female? She's got to be bi!" more often than not. I think maybe in the genre/medium you're referencing that's probably the case, but I bet if we did a list of "strong female lead characters" in western media today, the list would be pretty strongly represented in the "heterosexual" category. Disney alone would see to that. I'm having a hard time even coming up with a handful of strong, female leads that aren't straight at this point, but I agree, the general lack of these types of characters makes it tough and makes any time a few bi characters emerge, it could make it seem like its flooding the character type.
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Post by Red Impact on Dec 23, 2014 12:01:38 GMT -5
It's not a critique of this show in particular. I'm not part of the viewing audience of this series so I'm not in the loop about all the writing decisions, but it's how often something like this gets thrown around for female protagonists (in western fictional media at least; I'm not sure how eastern media compares in this regard). I don't know, maybe I'm overestimating this a bit after having spent the last three weeks playing Bioware RPGs, but I swear I see "Capable female? She's got to be bi!" more often than not. Mind you, half of it is the absolute dearth of strong leading females whatsoever. Maybe if that were to be expanded a bit--not an issue with the Avatar series--in western media, it wouldn't stand out to me quite so much. I think you're right in that you're overestimatin a bit due to Bioware syndrome, because honestly, while it's a trope thanks to bad 90's movies/tv shows, but not really as common a one as you're making it out to be. Bioware sort of screws the representation, because they've set out to ensure that any romantic interest can exist for any character. In this series in particular, there are a ton of strong female characters from across the universe, I could go about naming them, but it'd meaningless if you're not a fan. But suffice to say that there are easily at least 10 major female characters I could name off the top of my head who fit the bill of "capable female" not to mention dozens more minor characters, including previous female avatars. It's not a girl-power show either, since there are equally as many, if not more strong male characters. The show has shown characters in a variety of relationships, from the standard monogamous relationship, to widows/widowers, single-parents, to never married/unattached. Only two characters, Korra and Asami, are shown to be non-hetero. So I see the criticism and just get confused as to why someone would roll their eyes as a series just because they show 1 non-hetero relationship among the dozens of relationships depicted.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 12:03:54 GMT -5
"....the qualifications for a good portrayal of romantic tension have to run deeper than two characters "trusting each other deeply", facial reactions, and spending time alone." Sounds like a pretty strong indicator of a potential romantic relationship to me done in a more subtle way (something rarely seen in TV in general, let alone in a kids show). Especially during a time when there's a lot of crazy wartime stuff happening with spirit worlds, benders fighting each other etc etc. Its hard to even have time to process your feelings, especially romantic ones. Heck, even in shows set in normal settings like the Office they frickin BASH you over the head with all the romantic tension so even the densest viewer knows whats happening. They went through a difficult time together and came out on the other end with the realization that there's something between them. Not THAT far-fetched to me. It honestly sounds like a more substantive basis for a budding romance than "OMG HE'S SOOOOOO CUTE!!!" or whatever most other shows do. Also, I'm not 100% the creators intended it to be read as "they're romantically involved now," I'm just saying if that was the intention it would be that out in left field to me. If it gets a passing grade in your book, awesome. I'm aware that I might be asking a lot from what is, in the end, a kid's show. I'm a guy whose kid shows were Gargoyles and Bruce Timm's DC stuff, though, so I don't think the format is unfriendly to strong and clever writing. I should clarify that I don't dislike these two having feelings for each other; I don't have a dog in the shipping wars, but if it's a toss between Asami and Detective Cardboard, I'd say Korra has an easy pick. But I think the portrayal is unconvincing and I take issue with Bryan's condescending suggestion that it's because I'm not wearing the right glasses. I'm more inclined to think it's because the writing didn't get the ball to the endzone. I know what you mean, and can see that side of it. I prefer more open-ended stuff generally in fiction tthough. I get a little off-put with things are a little TOO pat when they wrap things up. I like some vagueness or wiggle room because it allows me to go back and think more deeply about the show as a whole and re-think/re-structure what I concieve of as a particular type of plot.
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Post by Hakumental on Dec 23, 2014 12:03:59 GMT -5
They always tackled mor mature themes in Korra, so why is this particular one considered a stunt moreso than the suicide bombing that capped off season 1? Buzz. Buzz. All right, so I'm being a bit of a smartass about this. (What is it about a cartoon that has me so jaded on creative intent?) The optimist in me says they wanted to give Korra a romantic send-off after all she'd gone through, but they knew Mako was unpopular, and pairing her off with Bolin would feel like Leia and Chewbacca hooking up at the end of ROTJ - so they went with Asami because, while it had little for-or-against either way, it would draw on real-world tensions to reinforce the series' themes of equality, tolerance, and acceptance. The cynic in me says that after a brutal saga of being screwed over by terrible marketing, death slots, online leaks, middling ratings, and internet backlash, the ending was a Hail Mary to give the series some positive publicity. I'm not sure which to listen to. I know which one I'd prefer, but Konietzko's comments are giving my inner optimist a hard time.
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Post by Red Impact on Dec 23, 2014 12:16:38 GMT -5
They always tackled mor mature themes in Korra, so why is this particular one considered a stunt moreso than the suicide bombing that capped off season 1? Buzz. Buzz. All right, so I'm being a bit of a smartass about this. (What is it about a cartoon that has me so jaded on creative intent?) The optimist in me says they wanted to give Korra a romantic send-off after all she'd gone through, but they knew Mako was unpopular, and pairing her off with Bolin would feel like Leia and Chewbacca hooking up at the end of ROTJ - so they went with Asami because, while it had little for-or-against either way, it would draw on real-world tensions to reinforce the series' themes of equality, tolerance, and acceptance. The cynic in me says that after a brutal saga of being screwed over by terrible marketing, death slots, online leaks, middling ratings, and internet backlash, the ending was a Hail Mary to give the series some positive publicity. I'm not sure which to listen to. I know which one I'd prefer, but Konietzko's comments are giving my inner optimist a hard time. It's your opinion, you're entitled to it, but I think it's completely inconsistent with what the show has done up to this point to throw an ending like that out there solely for the free press that they'll never really capitalize on. It's not like JK Rowling suddenly throwing out demographics of unseen Hogwartz students when asked on twitter, the show has always been really deliberate of how it addressed themes and topics in a more mature way, and that includes how it handles relationships. The notion of it being just a last-minute publicity stunt strikes my bullshit meter pretty heavily. You're not going to convince me that a show that capped off season 1 with a suicide bombing and showed two violent coups is just throwing out something because they wanted attention. It just strikes me as an argument that an animated show could never have mature themes unless they just wanted publicity, and I can't buy that.
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Post by Hakumental on Dec 23, 2014 12:39:18 GMT -5
Yes, both series have absolutely presented a lot of daring and mature material. I wasn't backstage, I don't know the process, and it's probably not very kind (and rather tinfoil-ish) to think the creators capitalized on the demand for LGBT representation to get the blogosphere fawning over their cartoon as a smokescreen for its problems. What can I say? The thought, ugly as it is, crossed my mind.
It's just a show. I should really just relax.
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Post by Cyno on Dec 23, 2014 13:43:12 GMT -5
It's not a critique of this show in particular. I'm not part of the viewing audience of this series so I'm not in the loop about all the writing decisions, but it's how often something like this gets thrown around for female protagonists (in western fictional media at least; I'm not sure how eastern media compares in this regard). I don't know, maybe I'm overestimating this a bit after having spent the last three weeks playing Bioware RPGs, but I swear I see "Capable female? She's got to be bi!" more often than not. Mind you, half of it is the absolute dearth of strong leading females whatsoever. Maybe if that were to be expanded a bit--not an issue with the Avatar series--in western media, it wouldn't stand out to me quite so much. I think you're right in that you're overestimatin a bit due to Bioware syndrome, because honestly, while it's a trope thanks to bad 90's movies/tv shows, but not really as common a one as you're making it out to be. Bioware sort of screws the representation, because they've set out to ensure that any romantic interest can exist for any character. In this series in particular, there are a ton of strong female characters from across the universe, I could go about naming them, but it'd meaningless if you're not a fan. But suffice to say that there are easily at least 10 major female characters I could name off the top of my head who fit the bill of "capable female" not to mention dozens more minor characters, including previous female avatars. It's not a girl-power show either, since there are equally as many, if not more strong male characters. The show has shown characters in a variety of relationships, from the standard monogamous relationship, to widows/widowers, single-parents, to never married/unattached. Only two characters, Korra and Asami, are shown to be non-hetero. So I see the criticism and just get confused as to why someone would roll their eyes as a series just because they show 1 non-hetero relationship among the dozens of relationships depicted. Honestly I'm having trouble thinking of any other non-heterosexual characters, male or female, in western children's cartoons besides Marceline and Princess Bubblegum in Adventure Time. You can make a case for Harley and Ivy in later BTAS episodes, but I personally saw that more as BFF's than romance. Bioware is an entirely different animal. Dragon Age is an M-Rated video game series where you expect to have a lot of mature themes and overtones. Especially when its lead writer, David Gaider (who is gay), has made it a personal mission to make the game as inclusive as humanly possible. That's why DA:I has gay folks, bisexual folks, even a trans man who isn't played off like a cheap joke for once.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 14:34:22 GMT -5
Yes, both series have absolutely presented a lot of daring and mature material. I wasn't backstage, I don't know the process, and it's probably not very kind (and rather tinfoil-ish) to think the creators capitalized on the demand for LGBT representation to get the blogosphere fawning over their cartoon as a smokescreen for its problems. What can I say? The thought, ugly as it is, crossed my mind. It's just a show. I should really just relax. That's the thing, though. If this were still Books 1 and 2, which got a pretty mixed reception from fans due to writing and pacing problems, then I could see why Bryan and Mike might possibly go for a publicity stunt. But Books 3 and 4 have been pretty much unanimously praised by fans and critics alike, and Bryan and Mike have been pretty candid about the various issues they had with Nickelodeon during production. I don't think they'd need to use anything as a smokescreen.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 23, 2014 17:05:17 GMT -5
It does seem that a lot of what this'll come down to for most fans is debating either if the show developed the potential relationship enough, or if some fans just didn't feel enough of a connection with Asami, who, much like a lot of the other side characters, had a hard time getting the screen time necessary for extra development.
I definitely get the pacing issues; like I said before, I loved Mako's near sacrifice during the final episode, and I loved a lot of the "structure" they framed his character within, but the lack of extra development definitely knocked the scene down a peg from where it could've been. Just so, it's possible to feel that way with Korra and Asami hitting it off; Asami did get more moments and development in the later seasons, but it's fair to say she, like most of the other characters, didn't approach the level of development characters like Sokka, Toph, and especially Zuko received in the original.
But yeah, I just have to agree to disagree on the "build up" aspect of it; I just remember way too many weeks where I'd kind of laugh and think "Korra/Asami shippers are gonna have a field day with this scene", since I was operating under the assumption that Nick would never let them go all the way through with it. Again, I think it's important that the show didn't end with them confessing some undying love or whatever; given what they'd been through and how much they trusted one another, it was perfectly reasonable for them to be at the stage of realizing those feelings, and that's where the series leaves us. Again, I feel like it played into much of what the final episode was about: there's tons of doubt going on, tons of hanging threads, and Korra herself telling Tenzin she feels like there's still so much to be done, in contrast to Aang's series, which ended with a great sense of finality (despite the follow-up comics they've been doing the past couple of years). So for me, it all just kind of meshed together.
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Post by RI Richmark on Dec 23, 2014 18:51:04 GMT -5
On the lighter side, I love how Bolin became an ordained minister offscreen at some point. Bolin isn't but Nuktuk is.
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Post by blackmegaman on Dec 24, 2014 3:05:16 GMT -5
Is this talk about the ending is nice and all , but I think we are all forgetting the originator of it all.....
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Dec 24, 2014 4:37:44 GMT -5
From observing the fandom as the show went, the number of people that supported KorrAsami really seemed to increase as book 3 went on.So i think it was as intended..
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Post by Gerard Gerard on Dec 24, 2014 7:14:11 GMT -5
I'm actually rewatching Book 3 and the scene where Korra and Asami deck the bandits on the outskirts of Ba Sing Se has me f***ing giddy.
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