Boo!
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,417
|
Post by Boo! on Sept 30, 2014 13:30:06 GMT -5
It wasn't organic - another 'WWE truth' fallacy. Really listen to Vince on commentary with Austin at that time. He was selling a reaction that simply wasn't there. The intention to turn Austin into a top babyface had been made long before the fans noticed. He walks out at WM13 to a reasonable response, a mixed-reaction for a heel but he had been going against a gradually heeling Bret so the seeds for a 'double turn' had been well and truly planted. "LISTEN TO THIS REACTION!" McMahon said at the time, or words to that effect, when he walked out at WM13. He got some reaction but McMahon sold it for larger than it was. It shows how well it worked that people actually think it was 'organic'. I think going back an watching these shows/events as we can is a more reliable way of assessing things than through memory heavily influenced by WWE official line. It's been near indoctrination for close to 20 years that Austin blasted off huge after Wm13, I'm not surprised this is how people remember it Commentary Vince oversold something? STOP THE FREAKING PRESSES!!! Are we talking about going into WM 13 or coming out of it? Going into WM 13 there's at least a discussion to be had. Afterward it's just laughable. My point about Vince selling something was to prove it wasn't 'organic', as well you know. When the owner of the company oversells a tweener reaction for a heel he isnt weeks later thinkng "Gosh, his popularity is so unexpected!" You keep saying I'm wrong and it's laughable but provide NO evidence for this. You say "pick any show" - but any I list don't count. You're simply allowing your memory to be influenced by the official narrative. You can as you say "pick any show" and see how small Austin's reactions are compared to not only what they'd become but with the top heat gained by he likes of Bret, HBK and Taker (either heel or face) where the reactions were audibly larger. Your whole argument seems to be "it's how I remember it" but don't you accept that your memory as at least been influenced by the official WWE narrative? But you can actually watch all of these shows again. I understand if people have a hard time accepting a challenge to their perceived wisdom but it's not as if I'm claiming Orndorff outpopped Hogan in a series of non-televised house shows in 1986 - anyone can check it. But I think people don't want to believe it based on the fact they've believed something else for years. TIDBIT: after Vince says "Listen to this reaction!!" at Wm13 the audio suspiciously sounds like 'Smackdown cheering' for few seconds after too, at least on the version I've seen which is possibly the VHS version. Ambrose last night got a bigger reaction that Austin before, during or quite a while after WM13 from the live crowd. Whether it's a sign of overall popularity I dont know - more people were watching back then. You can say Im wrong but why not back it up rather than just dismissing everything I say by saying you remeber it differently. We can all remember it how we like but we can also go and watch it and see.
|
|
|
Post by abjordans on Sept 30, 2014 13:34:57 GMT -5
I am sorry.. And I like Dean Ambrose. But, I do not feel I need to go dig up footage to prove that he is not as over as 1997, post-WM 13 STONE COLD FREAKING STEVE AUSTIN. It is a laughable assertion, hence everyone laughing at it. Dean Ambrose has a little shine right now, but it is not comparable to the buzz following Austin at that point. It just isn't.
|
|
|
Post by Robbymac on Sept 30, 2014 13:35:43 GMT -5
Commentary Vince oversold something? STOP THE FREAKING PRESSES!!! Are we talking about going into WM 13 or coming out of it? Going into WM 13 there's at least a discussion to be had. Afterward it's just laughable. My point about Vince selling something was to prove it wasn't 'organic', as well you know. When the owner of the company oversells a tweener reaction for a heel he isnt weeks later thinkng "Gosh, his popularity is so unexpected!" You keep saying I'm wrong and it's laughable but provide NO evidence for this. You say "pick any show" - but any I list don't count. You're simply allowing your memory to be influenced by the official narrative. You can as you say "pick any show" and see how small Austin's reactions are compared to not only what they'd become but with the top heat gained by he likes of Bret, HBK and Taker (either heel or face) where the reactions were audibly larger. Your whole argument seems to be "it's how I remember it" but don't you accept that your memory as at least been influenced by the official WWE narrative? But you can actually watch all of these shows again. I understand if people have a hard time accepting a challenge to their perceived wisdom but it's not as if I'm claiming Orndorff outpopped Hogan in a series of non-televised house shows in 1986 - anyone can check it. But I think people don't want to believe it based on the fact they've believed something else for years. TIDBIT: after Vince says "Listen to this reaction!!" at Wm13 the audio suspiciously sounds like 'Smackdown cheering' for few seconds after too, at least on the version I've seen which is possibly the VHS version. Ambrose last night got a bigger reaction that Austin before, during or quite a while after WM13 from the live crowd. Whether it's a sign of overall popularity I dont know - more people were watching back then. You can say Im wrong but why not back it up rather than just dismissing everything I say by saying you remeber it differently. We can all remember it how we like but we can also go and watch it and see. Cold Day in Hell, King of the Ring, another poster just gave you a Raw from April. The only show you've provided is a clip from a Raw in which Austin had already appeared 2 times which kills anyone's pop. Honestly I think it's you who's a little blinded here. You're so used to the monster arena shaking pops he was getting a year or so later that you assume he wasn't hot then too
|
|
|
Post by abjordans on Sept 30, 2014 13:43:55 GMT -5
Dean Ambrose is over, but he is not "change the game" over. Austin was that over going into WM 13 IMO, but unquestionably at that point, at the latest, by summer 1997. Dean Ambrose isn't to Punk post Pipe Bomb or Daniel Bryan before the Cena Summerslam match over yet. I dunno if he is even as over as Jeff Hardy challenging HHH for the WWE title over yet.
|
|
|
Post by Robbymac on Sept 30, 2014 13:57:19 GMT -5
Dean Ambrose is over, but he is not "change the game" over. Austin was that over going into WM 13 IMO, but unquestionably at that point, at the latest, by summer 1997. Dean Ambrose isn't to Punk post Pipe Bomb or Daniel Bryan before the Cena Summerslam match over yet. I dunno if he is even as over as Jeff Hardy challenging HHH for the WWE title over yet. If you remember the go home Raw before WM 13 there was a WWF Title Cage Match between Bret and Sid (famous for Bret's profanity laced post match tirade) where the storyline was if Bret won the belt his match with Austin became a title match. I remember thinking at the time there was a very good chance Bret would win and they'd hotshot the title to Austin because he was getting so hot. But hey I guess I was just buying into a WWF narrative that didn't exist yet.
|
|
The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,299
|
Post by The Ichi on Sept 30, 2014 14:04:41 GMT -5
If this happens, Punk needs to be the heel, and he needs to lose. Anything else would be taking 10 steps back, and I like Punk.
|
|
|
Post by abjordans on Sept 30, 2014 14:05:31 GMT -5
If how over Austin was in that point in time is manufactured by WWE, so is the importance of Hulkamania and anything else that is really, really important to the history of the company.
|
|