Should finishers always lead to pinfalls?

[Crappler El 0 M]

If you say, "Only at Mania in a big match" then that's the same as answering 'No.' Always is absolute. If you think there is a time when it is okay to kick out of a finisher, then you should answer 'No' to this thread question.

[lesleymoon]

Oct 14, 2014 17:47:03 GMT -5 wallabylikeyou said:

If it's going to mean something, do the kick out. If it won't, don't. I remember last year Jericho wrestled Cody Rhodes on Main Event and they both kicked out of each other's finishers and it was like, "lads, it's only Main Event."

True, true, but I think what happens in situations like that, is that they do it for themselves as much as they do it for the audience. Like a mutual respect thing.

Topic! I agree with most of you that finishers have become weakened over the years, to the point that they just seem like any other high impact move. Which shouldn't be the case. I get that guys want to get their big move in there and get that pop but ultimately it waters it down. There is a time and a place for it, and that is not every other match on every Raw. Just no. Or give them two finishers/high impact moves, one that is an 'every day' sort of move, that might or might not be enough to put your opponent away, and then another that for sure will.

Strangely enough, I think the divas get it right. For as much as they score pins with simple roll ups and such, usually when a diva has a finishing move and applies it, the opponent is done. Granted thats because they only give the divas like three minutes so they don't have time for all that, but, the point is still the same. Finishers finish! I can only think of one time the Black Widow has been countered, for example (I could be wrong here....just my recollection)

[Deleted]

Oct 14, 2014 17:33:08 GMT -5 @pauledraperously said:

Oct 14, 2014 17:25:56 GMT -5 @mightykretzler said:

I say "yes" with two caveats:

1. Non-finishers should be able to score pinfalls now and then, especially against non-main-eventers.

2. Wrestlers need to spend less time getting beat up and more time fighting. They should be able to sell the pain they're in, and being suplexed, for example, should obviously hurt. But when a wrestler gets laid out by a suplex or something, it should be no less relevant than being laid out from an F5. It's just that different moves should have different effects on how they stumble or drop someone which is why Bryan & Punk were mentioned by me.

I think your second point is well worth focusing on, not enough wrestlers actually sell the impact of moves, from Sheamus to Cena to Bryan to Punk to The Usos to Bray Wyatt to...well, almost everyone aside from Chris Jericho and Christian or a legitimately injured wrestler. Even people who sell half of the match tend to have the "comeback spots" where all injuries get forgotten.

Superplexes should end matches to me, having sudden comeback spots 60 seconds after one irritates me for the same reason I don't like when someone flies to the outside of the ring, half misses an opponent, and then gets up all cheery and pumped up. Yes, Usos, you should stop that.

Agreed. A big move, no matter who does it, even if it's not a finisher, should be match-ending more often than not. Most matches are limited not by the fact it's the same people wrestling, but because that WWE match writing forces them to have a pretty miniscule number of major spots and finishes. Almost everything is predicated upon the handful of signature moves (which never end matches) and finishers (which only sometimes end matches) which severely limits what different wrestlers are capable of doing in the ring.

[Adam Black]

Undertaker's really good at this he doesn't move a single muscle before kicking out it makes me nervous as hell during his Wrestlemania matches.

[Deleted]

There shouldn't be any hard and fast rules about what leads to what in wrestling.

Also, I think people overdo how often finishers are kicked out of. Finishers have probably a 90% success rate at getting pins (per use) if not more.

[repomark]

Not always, but like a lot of people have said finisher kickouts should be saved for big matches.

The problem that is developing is that it is becoming too predictable. In the last few years of the streak for instance after the HBK classic at 25, you knew Undertaker's opponent would kick out of the first Tombstone for instance.

Somewhere along the line WWE has confused kicking out of a finisher as being equivalent to a good false finish, when it is only a false finish if it actually feels like the end of the match. The reason HBK's tombstone kick out worked at WM25 was because of the lead intto the Tombstone making it feel like the end (i.e. Taker catching him when he tried to skin the cat). It was an inventive set up to the finish, so you believed it.

Fast forward to Rock v Cena at WM29 to see how it shouldn't be done. The last five minutes were just them continually trading each others finishers ad naseum and kicking out with out giving any thought to the set up making it feel like it is over and not just an obvious kick out. The only true false finish in that match for me was when Cena did the fake out of the previous year's go for the people's elbow and still got Rock Bottomed.

More thought needs to go into false finishes. I actually think more matches should be won with more regular moves to make them look more dangerous, e.g. ddt or regular piledrivers.

[FinalGwen]

I think it needs to just have a different emphasis. As well as "Wow, this guy is strong to kick out of the finisher", they should also question whether they went for the finisher too early, if they need to wear them down more. Make it clear that while the wrestler has developed their finisher so it hurts more than most moves, it's not an instant win, and they need to wear down the targeted body part first.

[mrbananagrabber]

I hate that a devastating suplex off the top rope gets a kick out at two, but that signature move = death. Makes no sense.

[Final Countdown Jones]

Remember at Royal Rumble, when Big Show hit his punchout of nowhere? And it had been so protected up to that point and such a consistent match ender that even Lesnar had to struggle to gather himself back together? Forming what was actually a pretty cool spot in an otherwise drawn-out chair beatdown? That's the benefit to making finishers more successful than they are right now.

[sunnytaker]

finishers should be just that 90% of the time. the rest of the time can be made up between "barely getting an arm/leg to the ropes" and actual kickouts (mostly on PPV).

i'd even like to see someone do a "weakly throwing their leg up like an actual kickout but make it look to be just an instinct reaction because the person doesn;t have the power/energy to actually kick out."

or even someone "barely kicking out" just after the 3 count to say "hey the guy was just barely beaten by the finisher." that way the finisher is protected but the guy being pinned gets a little rub in that he ecovered just a bit too late and in different circumstances may have actually done it in time" to set up a possible rematch orad where the finisher DOES get kicked out of.

part of the issue i think is that hardly any of the finishers require someone to work on a body part during the match to set up for it and give the viewer a reason to say "no wonder that neckbreaker won the match, guy was attacking the neck all match long." now it's more like FINISHER! as someone happens to be in the ring during the match.