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Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Oct 27, 2014 12:28:58 GMT -5
I loved Bret as the fighting champ. I just wish his win had a better build. As far as whether there was a planned Bret vs. Hogan match, I believe Bret's story. I believe he is telling the truth, but I also believe that Vince wasn't telling the truth to Bret about a Bret/Hogan match. Look at the finish to Mania 9. youtu.be/Qk1nLeZoN4cBret's and Hulk's interaction sure looks like the start of an angle to me and one that easily writes itself. WWF magazine even ran an article teasing a Bret/Hogan match. The Bret bashers can say whatever they want, but 1. Luger's face turn was too sudden to have been the plan all along. 2. Hogan was already filming his TV series. Why would he need to be WWF champion if he was going to be the part time special attraction?
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,417
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Post by Boo! on Oct 27, 2014 15:32:38 GMT -5
I loved Bret as the fighting champ. I just wish his win had a better build. As far as whether there was a planned Bret vs. Hogan match, I believe Bret's story. I believe he is telling the truth, but I also believe that Vince wasn't telling the truth to Bret about a Bret/Hogan match. Look at the finish to Mania 9. youtu.be/Qk1nLeZoN4cBret's and Hulk's interaction sure looks like the start of an angle to me and one that easily writes itself. WWF magazine even ran an article teasing a Bret/Hogan match. The Bret bashers can say whatever they want, but 1. Luger's face turn was too sudden to have been the plan all along. 2. Hogan was already filming his TV series. Why would he need to be WWF champion if he was going to be the part time special attraction? Yes Luger's face turn was sudden because he was REPLACING Hogan. Bret doesn't figure into the equation at all. If Hogan was still there SS would have been the sparkly, spangley, sickeningly patriotic rematch from KOTR. We were only a few months away from Vince sanctioning the end of Bret's reign where he did draw quite poorly. As Meltzer points out in his Observer newsletter for the WM9 show it made sense taking it off Bret because he'd not been a good draw even factoring that business in general was tanking. Now Hogan didn't draw great himself in that last run but why would you want to switch from something that doesn't draw to something that only five minutes ago didn't draw either?
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Crappler El 0 M
Dalek
Never Forgets an Octagon
I'm a good R-Truth.
Posts: 58,479
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Post by Crappler El 0 M on Oct 27, 2014 15:35:28 GMT -5
I'll give them credit for trying to come up with something since there were not a lot of options. It let them market Bret as the 'fighting-est champion in history.'
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,417
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Post by Boo! on Oct 27, 2014 15:40:09 GMT -5
IMO seeing the champ fight should have been something you paid to see either at a live event in person or on a PPV. You can't attribute anything directly to it or quantify it in a number but if you'd seen the champion wrestling 8 times before a PPV the appeal to see him fight on a PPV must surely have been diminished? Now it'd be nothing unusual but then it was.
The belt was never THE draw but it was A draw and in 1992 it still meant something.
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Post by dangerousdanpotato on Oct 27, 2014 21:27:45 GMT -5
I loved it, but really they needed to do more to build Bret against ESTABLISHED main event stars as his reign progressed and it seems they just didn't have the guys to do it. Having Bret defend against Berzerker, Papa Shango et al on TV was cool, but his first PPV defence being against Michaels did feel very strange and it felt to me at the time the title had come down a peg. A PPV rematch with Flair would have been good IMO, especially since the title win was never actually televised. If rumour be believed there were vague plans for Bret to go over Warrior at the Rumble and possibly Hogan at Summerslam, which kind of begs the question: why not have Bret go over Savage, who apparently offered to work with (and put over) both Hart and Michaels.
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nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
O Superman....O judge....O Mom and Dad....
Posts: 5,720
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Post by nisidhe on Oct 27, 2014 22:15:28 GMT -5
I think Bret's first title run was a textbook example of what any promotion should do to promote a new champion and Face of the Company: have your target champ hold a midcard belt, make his storyline/angle to the title more compelling than what's actually going on with the World Title, make his matches more entertaining and compelling than the main events; make him sell the tickets. Once that happens (and it did happen at Summerslam '92,) have him take the World title seemingly out of nowhere and let it be a fait accompli by the next set of tapings. Then, slowly build him up as capable and determined and have him face all comers until the logical build-up of bona-fide challengers presents itself. That period leading up to WrestleMania IX was poetry in motion; while Bret was blowing off Razor Ramon's challenge, you had Yokozuna coming up to challenge. The wrench in the works was, without question, Hogan's return.
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Post by bigalbass86 AKA Smokin Vokoun on Oct 28, 2014 6:28:17 GMT -5
Thinking about it now, I love it. It's something different at the time. Plus, giving midcarders a title shot, made the midcarder look a little more important. Plus it showed Bret could have good to great matches with just about anyone on the roster. Which is something a great WRESTLING champion should be.
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Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Oct 28, 2014 6:52:17 GMT -5
Thinking about it now, I love it. It's something different at the time. Plus, giving midcarders a title shot, made the midcarder look a little more important. Plus it showed Bret could have good to great matches with just about anyone on the roster. Which is something a great WRESTLING champion should be. Agreed. I remember him having a title defense against Virgil on superstars that was maybe 10 min long, but was surprisingly entertaining
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nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
O Superman....O judge....O Mom and Dad....
Posts: 5,720
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Post by nisidhe on Oct 28, 2014 16:43:23 GMT -5
Thinking about it now, I love it. It's something different at the time. Plus, giving midcarders a title shot, made the midcarder look a little more important. Plus it showed Bret could have good to great matches with just about anyone on the roster. Which is something a great WRESTLING champion should be. Agreed. I remember him having a title defense against Virgil on superstars that was maybe 10 min long, but was surprisingly entertaining As far as I can tell, Bret did a tremendous job maintaining and rebuilding the company's profile during that first reign - he made his opponents, every man-Jack of them, look like a million bucks in the ring, which in turn made the company look really good. There were some errors made on the business side - I don't think Stock-Aitken-Waterman were the best choice, though a _very_ high-profile choice it was, to produce the 1993 Wrestlemania album - but they were able to take risks like that in part because Bret was their new Face of the Company and he sold well to a global market. WCW couldn't keep up like that until Ted Turner took a direct interest in it and threw Upright Citizens Brigade-level resources at it.
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,417
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Post by Boo! on Oct 28, 2014 16:54:28 GMT -5
It's all very well and good being a 'fighting champion' and lofty ambitions to elevate the midcard - but who did it elevate from there? From memory the midcard post 1992 was appalling for a good few years. It's not as if this ploy made any of the ham and eggers look like a million bucks in anyway that translated into appeal to the audience after their match with him.
Virgil's entertaining match for the world title clearly didn't do much for his career.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Oct 28, 2014 17:50:02 GMT -5
I liked the fighting champion thing, though the execution sometimes varied in quality. Like the theory was great, and in some cases made for some fun; but then there were times where it was sort of a waste of time when it was against nobodies.
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DjZonk
Don Corleone
Where's my cat?
Posts: 1,325
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Post by DjZonk on Oct 28, 2014 18:55:16 GMT -5
They should have introduced a Sexulance of Sexacution title, which was defended against anybody willing to bed wore women than Bret at the time.
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jmule
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,274
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Post by jmule on Oct 28, 2014 19:04:33 GMT -5
They should have introduced a Sexulance of Sexacution title, which was defended against anybody willing to bed wore women than Bret at the time. And thus val venis and sexual chocolate were born!
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Madagascar Fred
El Dandy
TAFKA roidzilla and SUFFERIN' SUCCOTASH SON!
Posts: 8,784
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Post by Madagascar Fred on Oct 29, 2014 5:32:20 GMT -5
I liked the fighting champion stuff, very refreshing and exciting
since Vince lost so many topstars in 92, he needed SOMETHING to keep the casual viewers watching. you never saw this many WWF title matches on TV before
however, his defenses against Shawn at SS92 (great match) and Razor at RR93 (okay match) were kinda laughable, since both guys had little credibility at that point...looked more like IC title contests on paper
I'd have put him in a rematch against Flair at SS92, beat Savage at RR93, lose against Yoko at WM9, win the KOTR93 (redemption storyline), beat Yoko in the rematch at Summerslam93, beat (heel or face) Mr. Perfect or Shawn Michaels at Survivors93
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,417
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Post by Boo! on Oct 29, 2014 10:22:10 GMT -5
Bret needed a wedge to become a sympathetic babyface. Hogan had sympathy from the crowd, he'd get hit and the arena would gasp in horror. Bret, like Warrior but for different reasons, never had that. I think the moniker 'fighting champion' was perhaps almost too brash for him. The WWE champ should be (at that time) under siege, got at by the villains. Hogan never really issued a challenge to anyone. Andre ripped his cross off, Savage attacked him in the medical room, Bundy squashed him in the ring etc. The name "fighting champion" seems to have an implied 'bring it on' arrogance about it that I don't think helped get Bret over to the degree he should have got over.
He also needed to fight bigger men and needed to learn how to play dead. I know that this is the internet and we think that everyone gives a crap about match quality but outside those of us who subscribe to the Observer that factor is barely in the top 10 for most people, just behind how comfy the seats are at the area. If Bret was put in peril more, if Bret fought guys who you feared for him against more (as opposed to Virgil) then I'm not saying it would have worked wonderfully but I think it would have worked better. Bret taking a beating and then over-coming the odds would just once would have done 10X more than every other 'vs wee midcarder' match he had combined to put him over in that spot.
My friend who grew up with me watching wrestling at this time says that Bret's style and in-ring performance always seemed like it was going through the motions. Move spot to move spot to finish. There was never the drama that you had with Hogan or would get later with some other more charismatic performers and because he wasn't able to portray the sense of drama in his matches he never really took off. People didn't hate him or have ill-feellings towards him, they generally like him but they didn't care that much about him. If Hogan was your sports team you passionately cheered on every week and were delighted if he won and would sulk for a week if he got a beat down - Bret was your ex-home town's team you check for the results for in the papers, hope they do well but aren't really that bothered or hurt if they don't.
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
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Post by mizerable on Oct 29, 2014 10:33:24 GMT -5
Yes and no.
It was definitely something different and something that made Bret Hart stand out above the rest. However, making the champion in the longterm too approachable diminishes the value of the other titles. If there's a World title match and an IC title match on an episode of Raw, why should I tune in to the IC title match?
I don't have an issue with having the champion be a part of the show, but I've always felt that making him fight too often really overexposes what should otherwise be something you should pay to see.
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Post by abjordans on Oct 31, 2014 2:34:14 GMT -5
I think people are forgetting how much Bret's IC title reigns built him up. This wasn't anything like if Dolph Ziggler won the belt today. He was heavily established by the time he took the title from Flair. As a kid who started as a fan with Hogan as champ, I never got the impression Bret was just a midcarder with the belt. He was made out to be a big deal for a long time. Look at the 92 Rumble. Bret being sick and not wrestling was one of the major themes of the night on, at the time, the most star studded card ever.
Capable midcarder steps up and beats the champ out of nowhere was one of my favorite angles ever and I used it in efeds and when booking my action figure's a lot (haha).
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DjZonk
Don Corleone
Where's my cat?
Posts: 1,325
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Post by DjZonk on Oct 31, 2014 2:45:54 GMT -5
Shawn Michaels going for the world championship back in 1992 was a real sign of the times when you look at the players that were in the promotion at the start of the year...
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Post by baerrtt on Oct 31, 2014 12:40:59 GMT -5
I've said it before on here but it didn't really help Bret that the midcarders he defended the belt against either had zero credibility with the marks (or smarks) or in the case of Shawn or Razor were far from the level they'd respectively reach. However much Vince had soured on Savage in the ring he had far more credibility than virtually anyone, Flair aside, Hart was matched with during that first title run plus there was Taker of course.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2014 7:05:07 GMT -5
You never know what was going to click with people; you needed to see who could carry the ball and become future stars.
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