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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Dec 17, 2014 11:32:56 GMT -5
A union might make for better working conditions for the average wrestler, but I doubt it's going to help the storylines be any better. As unanimous the sentiment seems to be, that's still all completely subjective. (Although it'd be hilarious to see every wrestler get at least one WrestleMania main event over the course of their career as mandated by the union... F***ing 100 man Rumble every year all up in here) Or better yet, just bill every match at Mania as "a main event." Yes, including the diva's title match and the pre-show match.
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Post by Tessmachers-Ass-Fan on Dec 17, 2014 11:56:01 GMT -5
We welcome you to the main event of the pre-pre-pre-show of the pre-show.
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Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
Surviving
Posts: 28,961
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Post by Sephiroth on Dec 17, 2014 12:50:36 GMT -5
Because where else are they going to go?
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Woo
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,301
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Post by Woo on Dec 17, 2014 13:27:54 GMT -5
Because the management would fire anybody but the main eventers and they are too selfish, greedy and lazy to join join in.
Cena wouldn't do it for the same reason Hogan foiled Ventura's union plans.
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,417
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Post by Boo! on Dec 17, 2014 14:39:59 GMT -5
Different culture. Back it the day guys had all been through the territories and met the biggest, baddest and nastiest promoters in the world and learned to stand up for themselves. Today nobody really has that. Back then everyone who was anyone had creative control over their character. Vince wouldn't so much tell someone to lose - it'd be a negotiation. A guy would sometimes to what was asked and sometimes not. Honky refusing to lay down for Savage when IC champ being one of probably hundreds of different examples.
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 17, 2014 14:40:55 GMT -5
They'd be stupid to do so. Everyone is disposable. The only member of the roster who could do it would be Cena, and he has no reason to.
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Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
advocates duck on rodent violence
Fed. Up.
Posts: 37,742
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Dec 17, 2014 14:44:47 GMT -5
Because they'd just fire all of them and have Triple H wrestle that broomstick every Monday.
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Post by xCompackx on Dec 17, 2014 15:09:04 GMT -5
Because where else are they going to go? I think that argument works both ways, though. Vince knows he's the only game in town for both exposure and money, but WWE doesn't need the bad PR that firing someone for trying to start a union would create. I see it more as a mutual benefit that nobody tries standing up to Vince about all the things that are wrong with WWE rather than a lock on their careers.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Dec 17, 2014 17:42:05 GMT -5
Also don't forget that part of training is LOOK HERE THIS JOB SUCKS AND WE'LL TREAT YOU LIKE SHIT BUT THAT'S THE BUSINESS AND THERE'S HONOR IN THE BUSINESS AND YOU SHOULD SHOW RESPECT TO THE BUSINESS WHAT ARE YOU SOME KIND OF PUSSY WHO COMPLAINS ABOUT THINGS GO BE A MAN AND DO WHAT WE SAY
Why on earth do you still think they have people like Demott out there?
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Dec 17, 2014 17:46:01 GMT -5
A union might make for better working conditions for the average wrestler, but I doubt it's going to help the storylines be any better. As unanimous the sentiment seems to be, that's still all completely subjective. (Although it'd be hilarious to see every wrestler get at least one WrestleMania main event over the course of their career as mandated by the union... F***ing 100 man Rumble every year all up in here) Or better yet, just bill every match at Mania as "a main event." Yes, including the diva's title match and the pre-show match. Ehhh, it worked for the KISS Demon.
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Toates Madhackrviper
King Koopa
Is owed an Admin life-debt.
This avatar is so far out of date I might as well stick with it forever now.
Posts: 10,723
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Post by Toates Madhackrviper on Dec 17, 2014 23:30:56 GMT -5
Because the top guys i.e. the only ones important to WWE, have nothing to complain about. That's why you get things like John Cena telling the roster to step up instead of telling Vince McMahon where to stick it. As a guy who's always been a big defender of JohnCenaThePersonNotTheWrestlingCharachter this is a hard to swallow pill but an accurate one and it really makes me lose faith in Cena. Do I blame him more than Vince? More than Dunn and the rest of the stooges? Hell, even more than Triple H? No. But I do think his roll as the guy who COULD do the right thing and stand up and change everything but selfishly chooses not to makes me lose respect for the dude. I don't even blame him, but I can't respect him for it either.
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Reflecto
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Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Dec 17, 2014 23:39:32 GMT -5
Because the top guys i.e. the only ones important to WWE, have nothing to complain about. That's why you get things like John Cena telling the roster to step up instead of telling Vince McMahon where to stick it. As a guy who's always been a big defender of JohnCenaThePersonNotTheWrestlingCharachter this is a hard to swallow pill but an accurate one and it really makes me lose faith in Cena. Do I blame him more than Vince? More than Dunn and the rest of the stooges? Hell, even more than Triple H? No. But I do think his roll as the guy who COULD do the right thing and stand up and change everything but selfishly chooses not to makes me lose respect for the dude. I don't even blame him, but I can't respect him for it either. Again, that's the whole problem that needs to be mentioned. John Cena DOESN'T have that power either. He's as disposable as anyone else in the company, no more, no less. So is Kevin Dunn, so is Triple H, so is Stephanie McMahon, so is whatever person in power who's name is not Vincent Kennedy McMahon Dammit that you want to choose. The fact of the matter is that the roster, as a group, can't even stand up to WWE. It's gotten to a point where the only way that anyone can do this is not by going after Vince for changes, but for the roster to openly break off similar to how NOAH formed in Japan and start a new company.
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Toates Madhackrviper
King Koopa
Is owed an Admin life-debt.
This avatar is so far out of date I might as well stick with it forever now.
Posts: 10,723
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Post by Toates Madhackrviper on Dec 17, 2014 23:53:34 GMT -5
As a guy who's always been a big defender of JohnCenaThePersonNotTheWrestlingCharachter this is a hard to swallow pill but an accurate one and it really makes me lose faith in Cena. Do I blame him more than Vince? More than Dunn and the rest of the stooges? Hell, even more than Triple H? No. But I do think his roll as the guy who COULD do the right thing and stand up and change everything but selfishly chooses not to makes me lose respect for the dude. I don't even blame him, but I can't respect him for it either. Again, that's the whole problem that needs to be mentioned. John Cena DOESN'T have that power either. He's as disposable as anyone else in the company, no more, no less. So is Kevin Dunn, so is Triple H, so is Stephanie McMahon, so is whatever person in power who's name is not Vincent Kennedy McMahon Dammit that you want to choose. The fact of the matter is that the roster, as a group, can't even stand up to WWE. It's gotten to a point where the only way that anyone can do this is not by going after Vince for changes, but for the roster to openly break off similar to how NOAH formed in Japan and start a new company. I've seen you make this point multiple times and while I agree that the buck ultimately stops with Vince and that he's the center of the problem, I don't agree that Cena is disposable. Far fewer people would watch WWE programming if Vince fired him and replaced him with someone else (Reigns presumably). And even less people would watch if Cena gathered the entire roster together to demand a Union and Vince fired all of them and brought in a bunch of scabs to wrestle in their places. If Cena demanded something Vince would be forced to listen. Vince is crazy but I don't think he's SO crazy that he'd honestly fire Cena for standing up to the WWE's terrible practices. And if he did? Well the WWE would probably go out of business and if not they'd take a huge hit that Vince can't afford. They're already suffering for star power right now. Cena the golden goose is not a hit they could take. Vince knows that, he's not THAT insane dude. [I'm also not sure the "NOAH solution" would be effective in this case because where is the financial backing? Hell I'm not totally sure how it even worked when NOAH did it to be honest. WRESTLE-1 tried the same thing and seem to be struggling to get by.]
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Dec 18, 2014 0:07:17 GMT -5
I've seen you make this point multiple times and while I agree that the buck ultimately stops with Vince and that he's the center of the problem, I don't agree that Cena is disposable. Far fewer people would watch WWE programming if Vince fired him and replaced him with someone else (Reigns presumably). And even less people would watch if Cena gathered the entire roster together to demand a Union and Vince fired all of them and brought in a bunch of scabs to wrestle in their places. If Cena demanded something Vince would be forced to listen. Vince is crazy but I don't think he's SO crazy that he'd honestly fire Cena for standing up to the WWE's terrible practices. And if he did? Well the WWE would probably go out of business and if not they'd take a huge hit that Vince can't afford. They're already suffering for star power right now. Cena the golden goose is not a hit they could take. Vince knows that, he's not THAT insane dude. [I'm also not sure the "NOAH solution" would be effective in this case because where is the financial backing? Hell I'm not totally sure how it even worked when NOAH did it to be honest. WRESTLE-1 tried the same thing and seem to be struggling to get by.] The point though is- in the WWE's viewpoint, The WWE brand is the draw now more than any one wrestler. WWE has let any number of big stars walk away the moment they got too big for their britches, and replacing anyone is no different than replacing a faulty cog in the machine. John Cena is absolutely disposable if he tried it.
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Post by xCompackx on Dec 18, 2014 0:16:19 GMT -5
Again, that's the whole problem that needs to be mentioned. John Cena DOESN'T have that power either. He's as disposable as anyone else in the company, no more, no less. So is Kevin Dunn, so is Triple H, so is Stephanie McMahon, so is whatever person in power who's name is not Vincent Kennedy McMahon Dammit that you want to choose. The fact of the matter is that the roster, as a group, can't even stand up to WWE. It's gotten to a point where the only way that anyone can do this is not by going after Vince for changes, but for the roster to openly break off similar to how NOAH formed in Japan and start a new company. I've seen you make this point multiple times and while I agree that the buck ultimately stops with Vince and that he's the center of the problem, I don't agree that Cena is disposable. Far fewer people would watch WWE programming if Vince fired him and replaced him with someone else (Reigns presumably). And even less people would watch if Cena gathered the entire roster together to demand a Union and Vince fired all of them and brought in a bunch of scabs to wrestle in their places. If Cena demanded something Vince would be forced to listen. Vince is crazy but I don't think he's SO crazy that he'd honestly fire Cena for standing up to the WWE's terrible practices. And if he did? Well the WWE would probably go out of business and if not they'd take a huge hit that Vince can't afford. They're already suffering for star power right now. Cena the golden goose is not a hit they could take. Vince knows that, he's not THAT insane dude. [I'm also not sure the "NOAH solution" would be effective in this case because where is the financial backing? Hell I'm not totally sure how it even worked when NOAH did it to be honest. WRESTLE-1 tried the same thing and seem to be struggling to get by.] Going by what CM Punk has said (I really hate to use him as an example, but it's fairly unavoidable), Vince didn't even try calling him back after he left so I wouldn't put it past him to just move on from anyone, even John Cena. The thing about Cena is that even though he is the face of WWE, he's every bit as manufactured as we've been led to believe. They tell us how great Cena is, they book him to be superior, they flood us with merchandise so that he sells the most. The WWE machine is behind him. Taking nothing away from how hard John has worked to earn and keep that spot, Vince could absolutely make another John Cena if he felt that he had to.
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
Celestial Princess in Exile.
Posts: 46,149
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Dec 18, 2014 0:48:25 GMT -5
I've seen you make this point multiple times and while I agree that the buck ultimately stops with Vince and that he's the center of the problem, I don't agree that Cena is disposable. Far fewer people would watch WWE programming if Vince fired him and replaced him with someone else (Reigns presumably). And even less people would watch if Cena gathered the entire roster together to demand a Union and Vince fired all of them and brought in a bunch of scabs to wrestle in their places. If Cena demanded something Vince would be forced to listen. Vince is crazy but I don't think he's SO crazy that he'd honestly fire Cena for standing up to the WWE's terrible practices. And if he did? Well the WWE would probably go out of business and if not they'd take a huge hit that Vince can't afford. They're already suffering for star power right now. Cena the golden goose is not a hit they could take. Vince knows that, he's not THAT insane dude. [I'm also not sure the "NOAH solution" would be effective in this case because where is the financial backing? Hell I'm not totally sure how it even worked when NOAH did it to be honest. WRESTLE-1 tried the same thing and seem to be struggling to get by.] Going by what CM Punk has said (I really hate to use him as an example, but it's fairly unavoidable), Vince didn't even try calling him back after he left so I wouldn't put it past him to just move on from anyone, even John Cena. The thing about Cena is that even though he is the face of WWE, he's every bit as manufactured as we've been led to believe. They tell us how great Cena is, they book him to be superior, they flood us with merchandise so that he sells the most. The WWE machine is behind him. Taking nothing away from how hard John has worked to earn and keep that spot, Vince could absolutely make another John Cena if he felt that he had to. Vince likes to pick a horse and ride him until he falls apart, so while "what Vince is looking for" right now just happens to be exactly what Cena is, and that he "expects" people to be just like Cena (with the Media/PR stuff, the Make-A-Wish stuff, coming back early from injuries, etc...), once he's moved on to somebody else, what Vince "expects" out of the roster will just so happen to be exactly what his NEW favorite toy is like... It's how he excuses having a laser-focus on one person and one person only.
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Post by xCompackx on Dec 18, 2014 1:00:13 GMT -5
Going by what CM Punk has said (I really hate to use him as an example, but it's fairly unavoidable), Vince didn't even try calling him back after he left so I wouldn't put it past him to just move on from anyone, even John Cena. The thing about Cena is that even though he is the face of WWE, he's every bit as manufactured as we've been led to believe. They tell us how great Cena is, they book him to be superior, they flood us with merchandise so that he sells the most. The WWE machine is behind him. Taking nothing away from how hard John has worked to earn and keep that spot, Vince could absolutely make another John Cena if he felt that he had to. Vince likes to pick a horse and ride him until he falls apart, so while "what Vince is looking for" right now just happens to be exactly what Cena is, and that he "expects" people to be just like Cena (with the Media/PR stuff, the Make-A-Wish stuff, coming back early from injuries, etc...), once he's moved on to somebody else, what Vince "expects" out of the roster will just so happen to be exactly what his NEW favorite toy is like... It's how he excuses having a laser-focus on one person and one person only. Even ignoring Cena, Vince has said many times that he has that mindset when it comes to himself as well. Vince rides down a zip-line? You're riding down a zip-line. Vince falls off a steel cage? You're falling off a steel cage. It's this weird mentality of "Because I do it, you should do it too" that's really screwed up WWE and then when someone can't wrestle through an injury or can't handle the insane media schedule that John Cena somehow manages to do, they see you as not wanting it bad enough and don't push you. It's gotta be a really morally toxic environment.
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
Celestial Princess in Exile.
Posts: 46,149
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Dec 18, 2014 1:04:59 GMT -5
Vince likes to pick a horse and ride him until he falls apart, so while "what Vince is looking for" right now just happens to be exactly what Cena is, and that he "expects" people to be just like Cena (with the Media/PR stuff, the Make-A-Wish stuff, coming back early from injuries, etc...), once he's moved on to somebody else, what Vince "expects" out of the roster will just so happen to be exactly what his NEW favorite toy is like... It's how he excuses having a laser-focus on one person and one person only. Even ignoring Cena, Vince has said many times that he has that mindset when it comes to himself as well. Vince rides down a zip-line? You're riding down a zip-line. Vince falls off a steel cage? You're falling off a steel cage. It's this weird mentality of "Because I do it, you should do it too" that's really screwed up WWE and then when someone can't wrestle through an injury or can't handle the insane media schedule that John Cena somehow manages to do, they see you as not wanting it bad enough and don't push you. It's gotta be a really morally toxic environment. It's not an uncommon mindset, sadly. There used to be a talk show host named Bruce Williams, and he always loved to tell people about how he worked 2 full time jobs and went to college full-time simultaneously, and still managed to make time for his kids, and always said "I did it, why aren't you doing it?" My own family has that mindset. "Bruce Williams worked 2 full-time jobs and went to college full-time while doing so, why can't you?"
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Post by xCompackx on Dec 18, 2014 1:18:11 GMT -5
Even ignoring Cena, Vince has said many times that he has that mindset when it comes to himself as well. Vince rides down a zip-line? You're riding down a zip-line. Vince falls off a steel cage? You're falling off a steel cage. It's this weird mentality of "Because I do it, you should do it too" that's really screwed up WWE and then when someone can't wrestle through an injury or can't handle the insane media schedule that John Cena somehow manages to do, they see you as not wanting it bad enough and don't push you. It's gotta be a really morally toxic environment. It's not an uncommon mindset, sadly. There used to be a talk show host named Bruce Williams, and he always loved to tell people about how he worked 2 full time jobs and went to college full-time simultaneously, and still managed to make time for his kids, and always said "I did it, why aren't you doing it?" My own family has that mindset. "Bruce Williams worked 2 full-time jobs and went to college full-time while doing so, why can't you?" Yeah, it's a pretty weird mindset. I get the idea of working hard for something and wanting acknowledgment/appreciation for how hard you've worked, but to assume that everyone should be working as hard as you or even that they're "lazy" if they don't work as hard as you is a pretty terrible way to view the world.
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Post by Jedi-El of Tomorrow on Dec 18, 2014 1:34:49 GMT -5
It's not about unions. The NFL has the NFLPA and there are people in the government who want to ban football anyway due to the concussion issue and such. Yep, the NFL has a union, and there's no shortage of stuff that goes on, that we know about, that makes you sick. The coverup of concussions is a big thing, they shoved pain pills down player's throats, thrown guys out there when they have serious injuries. It's the nature of the beast, it's the culture that exists in competitive sports.
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