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Post by giraffe4hire on Dec 22, 2014 0:58:47 GMT -5
Rene Dupree's 2004 push. He even started getting his own talk show segment, "Cafe de Rene." I liked it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 2:29:56 GMT -5
A point a lot of people miss on Benoit/Jericho/Eddie etc. "not getting pushed" in WCW was that there weren't any spots at the top. The same big names clinging to the same spots, with their skillsets and storyline quality dipping massively. But they were all on huge contracts, and were box office draws, and were indeed still over, so they weren't going anywhere. So the Guerrero-types were over enough to main event, and fans wanted it, but there was no way it was going to happen for another 5 years.
That was the perspective of the wrestlers in question, which they've repeated time and time again in interviews. What they're saying is correct, but the way it was interpreted and restated by wrestling fans (and WWE's self-felating revisionist history) for years became this embellished "they couldn't even get on TV!" version that makes it untrue. But honestly, Jericho and those guys would've never made it as far in WCW as he did in the WWF, because WCW was abnormally thick on top.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Dec 22, 2014 7:56:37 GMT -5
CM Punk's push while he was in ECW seems to be overlooked considering he was given the rub of being with the originals and a run with the title before winning Money In The Bank. Guy always seemed to be featured quite heavily in some fashion. Shannon Moore returned with a dramatically altered look and gimmick he created himself, getting hype videos and everything... And was fed to CM Punk on his debut, leaving him DOA.
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Johnny Flamingo
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Dec 22, 2014 9:09:04 GMT -5
Who was begging for those guys to get main event spots? The IWC? It wasn't just the IWC. I went to a good number of WCW shows, both televised and house, and there were a ton of fans openly cheering for those guys. there were more than one "Chris Jericho: POWCW" signs around the arena's" Yes, because at the time WCW was in itself a selling point. With good booking I have no doubt that Jericho/Benoit could have pulled off some great numbers. If it was just the internet fans then I would agree, but it was the casual fans as well. The attendance and buyrates were starting to fall with the old guard on top which to me shows that the fans were demanding change and not getting it. It took the nWo angle to really move the sticks. Hogan was there for a while and didn't really bump the product very much. I don't but that logic and never will. Raven, Jericho and the rest were all pretty big draws. When Jericho and Raven both jumped to WWE they got huge ovations and both generated a pretty large buzz. TNA's attendance spiked largely due to Raven's debut and angle with JJ. WCW was no more crowded than WWF at the time. WWF had Steve Austin, the Rock, Foley, Kane, HHH, Kurt Angle, Big Show and Lesnar. Not to mention and eventually returning HBK and a soon to be debut of Cena. Where WCW wouldn't give Jericho a chance to prove himself at the top. Upon jumping to WWF Jericho's first appearance was with the Rock. Guerrero, Malenko and Benoit were immediately put into matches with DX (who was one of the top draws) upon arrival. While they didn't need to give them main event spots every time WCW failed to give the guys even a chance. Benoit only got the title because they were trying to keep them. I do only because they had gotten over everywhere they had been. With the right push anyone with talent can get over. Granted their time in WCW got them over. I look at the fans reactions towards them the same as fans reactions with Daniel Bryan in the buildup towards Wrestlemania XXX. the fans were begging for those guys to get a run and when they finally did the fans rallied around them. They became huge stars because they were some of the best wrestlers/performers to ever live. However, Vince gave the guys the push the fans were demanding while WCW kept pushing the old guard time and time again even when the fans started leaving the product because they were tired of the old guard. While you can say the old guard were huge draws and had huge contracts they eventually killed the product. Its like having a football team with an veteran QB with a big QB. Eventually you have the bench the guy once he starts stinking the joint up. WCW rode the old guard way past their prime and it (along with some horrible business decisions) ended up killing the company. Vince is not the perfect promoter and is making some of the same mistakes today that WCW made then. However, at the time, Vince was doing a much better job of catering to the fans than WCW was.
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Post by James Fabiano on Dec 22, 2014 9:40:26 GMT -5
Dusty Rhodes in the wwf in 89-91. He was arguably one of the top 5 babyfaces in the company at the time, and was matched up against Bossman (who was still a top heel by the time the feud began) and Savage (former WWF champion) for the majority of his run, and was relatively succesful against them. Even the dibiase feud had some good heat to it (and featured dustin rhodes blading, something you rarely saw at the time). However, people still cant stop talking about the polka dots or sapphire and how he was being "humiliated" by the wwf. Yeah he rarely lost until the DiBiase feud. Also, people say similar about LOD...they got pushed pretty well the first time around, despite being "toned down" by the WWF and despite Rocco. They let them destroy Demolition, a rare case of WWF/E putting "outsiders" over their creations. Yeah it was Smash and Crush mostly, which is like beating Coy and Vance Duke, but still.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 10:16:10 GMT -5
Who was begging for those guys to get main event spots? The IWC? It wasn't just the IWC. I went to a good number of WCW shows, both televised and house, and there were a ton of fans openly cheering for those guys. there were more than one "Chris Jericho: POWCW" signs around the arena's" Yes, because at the time WCW was in itself a selling point. With good booking I have no doubt that Jericho/Benoit could have pulled off some great numbers. If it was just the internet fans then I would agree, but it was the casual fans as well. The attendance and buyrates were starting to fall with the old guard on top which to me shows that the fans were demanding change and not getting it. It took the nWo angle to really move the sticks. Hogan was there for a while and didn't really bump the product very much. I don't but that logic and never will. Raven, Jericho and the rest were all pretty big draws. When Jericho and Raven both jumped to WWE they got huge ovations and both generated a pretty large buzz. TNA's attendance spiked largely due to Raven's debut and angle with JJ. WCW was no more crowded than WWF at the time. WWF had Steve Austin, the Rock, Foley, Kane, HHH, Kurt Angle, Big Show and Lesnar. Not to mention and eventually returning HBK and a soon to be debut of Cena. Where WCW wouldn't give Jericho a chance to prove himself at the top. Upon jumping to WWF Jericho's first appearance was with the Rock. Guerrero, Malenko and Benoit were immediately put into matches with DX (who was one of the top draws) upon arrival. While they didn't need to give them main event spots every time WCW failed to give the guys even a chance. Benoit only got the title because they were trying to keep them. I do only because they had gotten over everywhere they had been. With the right push anyone with talent can get over. Granted their time in WCW got them over. I look at the fans reactions towards them the same as fans reactions with Daniel Bryan in the buildup towards Wrestlemania XXX. the fans were begging for those guys to get a run and when they finally did the fans rallied around them. They became huge stars because they were some of the best wrestlers/performers to ever live. However, Vince gave the guys the push the fans were demanding while WCW kept pushing the old guard time and time again even when the fans started leaving the product because they were tired of the old guard. While you can say the old guard were huge draws and had huge contracts they eventually killed the product. Its like having a football team with an veteran QB with a big QB. Eventually you have the bench the guy once he starts stinking the joint up. WCW rode the old guard way past their prime and it (along with some horrible business decisions) ended up killing the company. Vince is not the perfect promoter and is making some of the same mistakes today that WCW made then. However, at the time, Vince was doing a much better job of catering to the fans than WCW was. The old guard getting pushed did not in ANY WAY kill the company. That is just anti-historical. I will buy the argument that the audience was getting tired of the same old thing and that ratings and buy rates were slipping. I will even buy the argument that creative's over-dependence on the old guard stopped the company from evolving, but it did not kill the company. It might have knocked them out of first place, but had the merger not taken place, there's zero doubt whatsoever that WCW would have had a New Generation era and the company would have continued. I think another thing you're confusing is that cheering Jericho and Benoit while you're at a wrestling show is not the same thing as buying a ticket to see Jericho and Benoit. Hulk Hogan was a proven box office smash hit. Jericho and Benoit never have been and never will be. It's no different than films, where you get a get the leading man who is a proven box office success and surround him with co-stars who are often as good or better than the leading man, but they don't sell tickets. William H. Macy is one of the finest actors in Hollywood, but you don't and will probably never see him with the starring role in any summer blockbusters. WCW was indeed, far more top heavy than WWE. As I said, WWE was building most of those guys you mentioned into stars. They were not seasoned superstars who had become household names headlining for years. WCW had a fantasy roster of main eventers full of matches that booked themselves (and yet they still often failed). WWE had a roster of up-and-coming headline acts who were transitioning fantastically into that role, but weren't quite at the same level. You mention that the Radicalz were instantly put into main event spots in WWE. That's because they were already stars. WWE didn't need to do anything to build them, because WCW had already made all the investments to get them over. Had they stuck with WCW for even a year longer, there's no doubt that the "glass ceiling" would have had some major cracks in it, if not shattered for some of them completely. I could also point out that most of guys didn't main event in WWE for very long before they were dropped into the midcard. Finally, you mentioned Daniel Bryan, who remains completely unproved. The television ratings didn't exactly skyrocket when Daniel Bryan was active, and we have yet to see if his being active full time in the leading role will equal ratings, PPV buys, or any other substantial proof that a bunch of people holding signs and chanting "YES" actually leads to any significant gains.
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Johnny Flamingo
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Dec 22, 2014 10:56:58 GMT -5
The old guard getting pushed did not in ANY WAY kill the company. That is just anti-historical. I will buy the argument that the audience was getting tired of the same old thing and that ratings and buy rates were slipping. I will even buy the argument that creative's over-dependence on the old guard stopped the company from evolving, but it did not kill the company. It might have knocked them out of first place, but had the merger not taken place, there's zero doubt whatsoever that WCW would have had a New Generation era and the company would have continued. WCW was dead by the time Vince bought it. The attendances were shrinking and people simply were not buying the product. I agree had those guys stayed they would have been in the main event eventually. However one of the main reasons WCW started losing viewers was due to the fact the the people got so tired of seeing the same guys over and over they turned off the product. WCW gave no indication that they were willing to push anyone new. That right there is an outright lie. Jericho and Benoit have both been huge draws with WWE. Benoit's moment at WMXX was considered by many to be one of the best stories in wrestling history until you know what happened. Both men have moved a great deal of merchandise and both had a tremendous amount of support and yes, both sold tickets. No argument in that one except that wrestling isn't Hollywood. I look at Hogan and friends as more like a Pauly Shore, Van Damme than a Tom Cruise, Will Smith type of draw. For their time they did really good but by the end they weren't really selling anymore. If Tom Cruise or Will Smith attach their name to a small film it will draw. Hogan attached his name to TNA and did nothing. WCW had proven draws whose drawing power was rapidly fading if not already set. They had chances to transition guys (Jericho vs Goldberg) and failed to do so. Had they done that they would have had a great "passing the torch" moment. They were definitely stars because of WCW and WWF was smart enough to capitalize on that. Yes, they were eventually dropped down to mid card but by giving them the main event rub it gave fans hope that they would eventually become main event players. WCW never gave fans that hope. Jericho got a HUGE rub by getting paired with the Rock. By Jericho's admission he wasn't ready to main event WWF as he needed to adapt his style. Yet, that rub gave the fans a taste of him with the bid draw. Benoit and Eddie both eventually went down to mid card but both eventually rose to be huge players in the WWF main event scene. Had Benoit not killed his family I have no doubt that WM XX would still be celebrated by WWE as one of their highest moments. By comparison WCW never gave people that taste. Fans started turning away because it felt like WCW would never pull the trigger on guys who were more than ready. Of course it didn't. I would also argue that people watch Raw and attend shows more because of the "WWE" name than any wrestler they have. By giving Bryan that moment and run it gave fans a reason to keep turning in. Had he not gotten that rub I could easily see some fans giving up on the product after Mania (had the main event been Orton vs Bautista). WCW had Jericho, Benoit and Eddie as their "Daniel Bryan", people wanted to see them but WCW kept giving us "Orton vs Bautista" whether we wanted it or not. I would go as far as saying people went to see "WWF", "WCW", and "ECW" more than they went to see Hogan, Austin or Sabu. Today I think more people watch "WWE" than watch a particular wrestler. However within that product they have to see that the people they like will get a chance. If they feel the fan favorites will get a chance they will stick with the product, if those favorites never get a chance they will stop supporting it. It is like a book, you are willing to spend time invested in the story but the ending better pay off. WCW never gave that payoff and never hinted that there would be a payoff. Speaking personally I was pretty close to giving up on WWE until the Bryan story. That gained my interest and I've kept watching it since then even though I don't find the product to be all that great right now (aside from NXT). I know of others who felt the same. You have to give fans a reason to not give up on the product. TNA had a tremendous roster full of talent. Yet fans eventually realized that TNA was making mistake after mistake and gave up. Same with WCW, if you delivering a product that the fans don't want they will turn away and it doesn't matter how many "big names" you have.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 11:15:58 GMT -5
The old guard getting pushed did not in ANY WAY kill the company. That is just anti-historical. I will buy the argument that the audience was getting tired of the same old thing and that ratings and buy rates were slipping. I will even buy the argument that creative's over-dependence on the old guard stopped the company from evolving, but it did not kill the company. It might have knocked them out of first place, but had the merger not taken place, there's zero doubt whatsoever that WCW would have had a New Generation era and the company would have continued. WCW was dead by the time Vince bought it. The attendances were shrinking and people simply were not buying the product. I agree had those guys stayed they would have been in the main event eventually. However one of the main reasons WCW started losing viewers was due to the fact the the people got so tired of seeing the same guys over and over they turned off the product. WCW gave no indication that they were willing to push anyone new. That right there is an outright lie. Jericho and Benoit have both been huge draws with WWE. Benoit's moment at WMXX was considered by many to be one of the best stories in wrestling history until you know what happened. Both men have moved a great deal of merchandise and both had a tremendous amount of support and yes, both sold tickets. No argument in that one except that wrestling isn't Hollywood. I look at Hogan and friends as more like a Pauly Shore, Van Damme than a Tom Cruise, Will Smith type of draw. For their time they did really good but by the end they weren't really selling anymore. If Tom Cruise or Will Smith attach their name to a small film it will draw. Hogan attached his name to TNA and did nothing. WCW had proven draws whose drawing power was rapidly fading if not already set. They had chances to transition guys (Jericho vs Goldberg) and failed to do so. Had they done that they would have had a great "passing the torch" moment. They were definitely stars because of WCW and WWF was smart enough to capitalize on that. Yes, they were eventually dropped down to mid card but by giving them the main event rub it gave fans hope that they would eventually become main event players. WCW never gave fans that hope. Jericho got a HUGE rub by getting paired with the Rock. By Jericho's admission he wasn't ready to main event WWF as he needed to adapt his style. Yet, that rub gave the fans a taste of him with the bid draw. Benoit and Eddie both eventually went down to mid card but both eventually rose to be huge players in the WWF main event scene. Had Benoit not killed his family I have no doubt that WM XX would still be celebrated by WWE as one of their highest moments. By comparison WCW never gave people that taste. Fans started turning away because it felt like WCW would never pull the trigger on guys who were more than ready. Of course it didn't. I would also argue that people watch Raw and attend shows more because of the "WWE" name than any wrestler they have. Bu giving Bryan that moment and run it gave fans a reason to keep turning in. Had he not gotten that rub I could easily see some fans giving up on the product after Mania (had the main event been Orton vs Bautista). WCW had Jericho, Benoit and Eddie as their "Daniel Bryan", people wanted to see them but WCW kept giving us "Orton vs Bautista" whether we wanted it or not. Speaking personally I was pretty close to giving up on WWE until the Bryan story. That gained my interest and I've kept watching it since then even though I don't find the product to be all that great right now (aside from NXT). I know of others who felt the same. You have to give fans a reason to not give up on the product. TNA had a tremendous roster full of talent. Yet fans eventually realized that TNA was making mistake after mistake and gave up. Same with WCW, if you delivering a product that the fans don't want they will turn away and it doesn't matter how many "big names" you have. 1. WCW stopping production had nothing to do with any of the things that you listed. You're just ignoring history. Maybe you don't really understand why WCW ceased. Either way, you're wrong. 2. Jericho and Benoit have never even come close to accomplishing what Hulk Hogan did, being the star or the draw that Hulk Hogan was. Sorry, but that's not even arguable. 3. You're comparing Hulk Hogan (WCW) in his mid 40's, when he was still in decent wrestling shape, to Hulk Hogan (TNA) when he was almost 60 and could barely walk. The former was still the biggest star in wrestling, right off the heels of the biggest boom in wrestling, and kicked off the second boom in wrestling. The latter is an old man who hadn't been relevant in over a decade. 4. How can you say that WCW wasn't creating new stars or transitioning new faces to become the new standard bearers of the company when that's EXACTLY what ended up happening? You say they didn't transition Goldberg to a standard bearer? What? How about the Giant? How about Booker T? How about Scott Steiner? How about DDP? How about Jarrett? All World Champions. Where did all those guys come from if WCW didn't want to push anyone but Hogan and the old guard? You say WCW never gave fans any hope that any of those guys would be pushed, while the whole time they were getting pushed? Ridiculous. There's not one of those guys we've mentioned who didn't get big pushes, national exposure, and became stars in WCW. 5. Fans did not give up on WCW... ever. That's just fantasy. WCW Nitro's lowest television rating was higher than Raw's two lowest ratings during the same period. Had fans given up on WWE during that period? Of course not. More fans were watching WCW for a while, then the pendulum swung and more fans were watching WWE. The idea that the fans collectively decided that WCW wasn't worth watching, which caused them to shut down operations, is just pure fantasy. Fans turned the channel because WWE had a better show, period, not because WCW didn't create new stars or any other such nonsense.
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Johnny Flamingo
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Dec 22, 2014 11:39:42 GMT -5
1. WCW stopping production had nothing to do with any of the things that you listed. You're just ignoring history. Maybe you don't really understand why WCW ceased. Either way, you're wrong. Much of this was due to the fact the WCW was becoming a money pit. But TV rating were down and attendance was down which led to those business mistakes becoming multiplied. WCW became bad for the bottom line so they were shut down by the parent company. Because of the declining numbers due to not giving the fans what they wanted WCW was not attractive for most potential buyers. No wrestler has ever come close to emulating what Hogan did in the 80's and no wrestler will probably get to that level. With that said, by the mid-90's and then again at the end of his WCW run his star power had faded big time. While not on the Hulkamania level Benoit and Jericho certainly were popular enough to start letting them headline a few PPV's and to start pushing them towards the main event. By doing this they could have prevented the ratings and attendance from eventually dropping out. Instead they let the old guard keep the top spots, allowed their rising stars to make money for WWE and were eventually left with no one to carry the company at the end. No arguments with that which is why I don't like the movie star analogy. Tom Cruise is out of his prime but still pulls great numbers. Wrestlers have much shorter tenures due to the physical nature of their work. With that said by the end of his WCW run Hogan wasn't drawing in numbers and it could be argued that Benoit and Jericho could have easily prevented the bottom from falling out. Goldberg was the definitive long exception. The Giant and Booker T were both receiving pushes before the old guard started taking over. Once the old guard started running the show those types of pushes ceased. Scott Steiner could definitely be considered part of the old guard as he was seen by many as a WCW mainstay from his Steiner Brothers Days and was looked at by many as one of WCW's top stars. DDP wasn't exactly a spring chicken either. JJ and Booker T didn't receive major runs until the old guards left ad there was literally no one else to push. To say fans didn't give up on WCW is an outright lie. WCW went from getting consistent rating in the 4s from 1997 till mid 1999. From mid 1999-till its death WCW started dropping into low 2 range. In 2000-2001 before WCW died the lowest TV rating WWE had was 3.8 on 12/25/00, the highest WWCW rating during that time was 3.26 on 2/14/00. By and large the fans had left WCW while WWE was still getting rating in the 5's. By the end it wasn't close. House show attendance also declined sharply as seen here: To say fans were not giving up on WCW is totally false and the numbers support that the fans were leaving WCW pretty heavily. source show attendance: sites.google.com/site/chrisharrington/mookieghana-prowrestlingstatistics/avghouseshowsource tv ratings: prowrestling.wikia.com/wiki/Monday_Night_Wars_Ratings
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 12:11:10 GMT -5
1. WCW stopping production had nothing to do with any of the things that you listed. You're just ignoring history. Maybe you don't really understand why WCW ceased. Either way, you're wrong. Much of this was due to the fact the WCW was becoming a money pit. But TV rating were down and attendance was down which led to those business mistakes becoming multiplied. WCW became bad for the bottom line so they were shut down by the parent company. Because of the declining numbers due to not giving the fans what they wanted WCW was not attractive for most potential buyers. No wrestler has ever come close to emulating what Hogan did in the 80's and no wrestler will probably get to that level. With that said, by the mid-90's and then again at the end of his WCW run his star power had faded big time. While not on the Hulkamania level Benoit and Jericho certainly were popular enough to start letting them headline a few PPV's and to start pushing them towards the main event. No arguments with that which is why I don't like the movie star analogy. Tom Cruise is out of his prime but still pulls great numbers. Wrestlers have much shorter tenures due to the physical nature of their work. With that said by the end of his WCW run Hogan wasn't drawing in numbers and it could be argued that Benoit and Jericho could have easily prevented the bottom from falling out. Goldberg was the definitive long exception. The Giant and Booker T were both receiving pushes before the old guard started taking over. Once the old guard started running the show those types of pushes ceased. Scott Steiner could definitely be considered part of the old guard as he was seen by many as a WCW mainstay from his Steiner Brothers Days and was looked at by many as one of WCW's top stars. DDP wasn't exactly a spring chicken either. JJ and Booker T didn't receive major runs until the old guards left ad there was literally no one else to push. 5. Fans did not give up on WCW... ever. That's just fantasy. WCW Nitro's lowest television rating was higher than Raw's two lowest ratings during the same period. Had fans given up on WWE during that period? Of course not. More fans were watching WCW for a while, then the pendulum swung and more fans were watching WWE. The idea that the fans collectively decided that WCW wasn't worth watching, which caused them to shut down operations, is just pure fantasy. Fans turned the channel because WWE had a better show, period, not because WCW didn't create new stars or any other such nonsense. To say fans didn't give up on WCW is an outright lie. WCW went from getting consistent rating in the 4s from 1997 till mid 1999. From mid 1999-till its death WCW started dropping into low 2 range. House show attendance also declined sharply as seen here: To say fans were not giving up on WCW is totally false and the numbers support that the fans were leaving WCW pretty heavily. source: sites.google.com/site/chrisharrington/mookieghana-prowrestlingstatistics/avghouseshow[/quote] 1. WCW programming was cancelled because the new management had no idea what to do with it. Saying they were closed because they were losing money is false, because they would most likely have not have been closed had Turner still been in charge. WCW was losing millions, had poor attendance and poor buy rates prior to Eric Bischoff becoming Executive VP and taking it to #1 with the influx of big name stars and the nWo angle. 2. Totally agree that Hogan was stale by the end of his WCW run. Totally agree that Benoit and Jericho were at the level where they could have started headlining some shows. Why weren't they? Maybe because they weren't with the company any more by that time, so instead those spots went to Booker T, Scott Steiner and Jeff Jarrett instead. Again, there is no argument whatsoever that WCW took its time in transitioning out Hulk Hogan. But, to argue that those guys NEVER would have gotten that spot is ridiculous. 3. The bottom fell out for WCW because their programming sucked, and WWE's programming was what people wanted to see. The bottom fell out because WCW creative was off the rails and upper management had no experience running a wrestling company and no clue how to get it back on the rails and make it successful again. Blaming that on Hogan or saying that things might have been different if they had kept Benoit or Jericho or Guerrero or Saturn and let one of them wear the title belt is silly. 4. The Giant's push was in the midst of the old guard taking over. The Giant took the title from Hulk Hogan and held it for a considerable length of time. Booker T was still a tag team wrestler at this time and didn't start rising as a singles star until '98 when he won the TV belt and had a great series of matches with Benoit. He was a new face in the World title scene in around 2000. DDP does not fit the definition of "old guard" because he didn't even become a major star until the late 90's in the midst of Hogan's run on top. Steiner was a tag team wrestler until the late 90's when he broke out and became one of their top singles stars. Age is irrelevant. The point is that they were transitioned from tag team to midcard to main event stars, just like WWE did with Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels. There goes the theory that there was no hope that Jericho, Guerrero and all those guys would ever get a main event push. 5. Fans retreating from WCW to watch WWE does not constitute the entire fan base giving up on WCW. There were still millions of people watching WCW on a weekly basis, just as there were millions watching WWE during their down period in the mid 90's. Again, it's pure fantasy to suggest that WCW had no choice but to close its doors because the fans gave up on them. What you're describing is a lot of fans turning the channel, which is no different than what happened in '96 when wrestling fans turned from Raw to Nitro. WWE has its core fan base who will watch no matter what, and so did WCW. People who make this argument forget how poor business was for WCW during the early 90's and how they kept going. Why? Because the owner of the company wanted wrestling on his network and was willing to spend the money to keep wrestling on his network. When the ownership changed, WCW was cancelled.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 12:39:15 GMT -5
WCW went from getting consistent rating in the 4s from 1997 till mid 1999. From mid 1999-till its death WCW started dropping into low 2 range. In 2000-2001 before WCW died the lowest TV rating WWE had was 3.8 on 12/25/00, the highest WWCW rating during that time was 3.26 on 2/14/00. By and large the fans had left WCW while WWE was still getting rating in the 5's. By the end it wasn't close. Forgot to mention that in December of 1996, WWE Raw pulled a 1.5 and a 1.6 on back to back weeks, both of which are lower than Nitro's lowest rating EVER. For many months before and after those two awful weeks, Raw was pulling low 2's and occasionally high 1's. Why didn't WWE close its doors? Right in the middle of WWE pushing their bright young stars, I guess fans decided they wanted to watch Hulk Hogan and that old watered down nWo instead.
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Post by James Fabiano on Dec 22, 2014 12:42:20 GMT -5
[quote source="/post/11321031/thread" timestamp="1419263818" 2. Jericho and Benoit have never even come close to accomplishing what Hulk Hogan did, being the star or the draw that Hulk Hogan was. Sorry, but that's not even arguable. The latter, maybe...if you count being "infamous" as being a star.
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Johnny Flamingo
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Dec 22, 2014 13:37:21 GMT -5
[Forgot to mention that in December of 1996, WWE Raw pulled a 1.5 and a 1.6 on back to back weeks, both of which are lower than Nitro's lowest rating EVER. For many months before and after those two awful weeks, Raw was pulling low 2's and occasionally high 1's. Why didn't WWE close its doors? WWF came very close to closing its doors. WWF was helped because they had started to build up Bret Hart and HBK, had an existing main eventer in The Undertaker and brought in some fresh faces such as Foley, Austin and The Rock. Eventually those wrestlers caught fire as they were given a chance to take the ball and run with it. You are failing to mention that when Hogan and friends first jumped to WCW it didn't pop attendance, rating or buyrates very significantly. The WCW figures didn't start to explode until Kevin Nash and Scott Hall jumped ship (the same two guys who with the sinking WWF). Once the NWO started it helped create the boom because it was fresh and Hogan as a heel was definitely fresh and something fans enjoyed seeing, for a while. The fans attitude towards the nWo at the beginning of the angle and at the end was much different. So yes, the numbers do show that the fans were very tired of the old guard. Eventually the luster and novelty of those guys wore off and the fans demanded a change. By the end of their run people were tired of the old guard and fans were turning away from them. Whether you want to admit it or not, by the end of their WCW run the old guard was hurting WCW and their overall product. Had they not shown reluctance to get Jericho, Eddie, Benoit in the main event it may have prevented the fans from leaving once they tired of seeing the same guys at the top. Instead WCW gave the fans no reason to think that those guys would have a shot at the top. WWE meanwhile saw some huge pushes for younger talent such as The Rock, HHH, Kurt Angle, Lesnar, Matt and Jeff Hardy, Dudleys, Edge and Christian with also giving the title to the very over fan favorite of Mick Foley. Meanwhile with WCW aside from Goldberg/DDP it was the same old people at the top of the card with little upward movement.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 13:52:29 GMT -5
You are failing to mention that when Hogan and friends first jumped to WCW it didn't pop attendance, rating or buyrates. The WCW figures didn't start improving until Kevin Nash and Scott Hall jumped ship (the same two guys who with the sinking WWF). Once the NWO started it helped create the boom because it was fresh and Hogan as a heel was definitely fresh and something fans enjoyed seeing, for a while. The fans attitude towards the nWo at the beginning of the angle and at the end was much different. So yes, the numbers do show that the fans were very tired of the old guard. Eventually the luster and novelty of those guys wore off and the fans demanded a change. By the end of their run people were tired of the old guard and fans were turning away from them. Whether you want to admit it or not, by the end of their WCW run the old guard was hurting WCW and their overall product. Had they not shown reluctance to get Jericho, Eddie, Benoit in the main event it may have prevented the fans from leaving once they tired of seeing the same guys at the top. Instead WCW gave the fans no reason to think that those guys would have a shot at the top. WWE meanwhile saw some huge pushes for younger talent such as The Rock, HHH, Kurt Angle, Lesnar, Matt and Jeff Hardy, Dudleys, Edge and Christian with also giving the title to the very over fan favorite of Mick Foley. Meanwhile with WCW aside from Goldberg/DDP it was the same old people at the top of the card with little upward movement. This is my point, exactly. The numbers shifted because of the quality of the programming, not because of who was getting pushed. As you said, Hogan did not bring everybody running to WCW because the programming was just same ol'. When the nWo angle started, suddenly WCW's numbers started skyrocketing whereas WWE's started to tdrop, even though WWE was pushing new faces and doing all the things that people say "If only WCW had done this, they would still be going." Pushing Benoit, Jericho and all those guys into the main event would have done zip, zero, nada for WCW if their programming was awful, which it was. Pushing Rock, HHH, Angle and all those guys would have done zip, zero, nada for WWE had their programming been awful. All you have to do is look at the company from '93 to '95 and see how poorly they were faring while pushing a completely new generation of wrestlers, while fans were gradually shifting their attention to WCW to ride the nostalgia train with Hogan, Savage and the guys who were still the biggest stars in wrestling to many fans. Only because Jericho, Benoit, Malenko, Guerrero, etc became big stars in WCW did they become instant man eventers in WWE. Regardless of the fans interpretation of events at the time, there's no reason whatsoever to believe that many those names would not have been headlining WCW in 2000-2001 and onward.
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Post by thegame415 on Dec 22, 2014 14:21:30 GMT -5
JBL wasn't his first singles push, they tried to get the APA Bradshaw character over as a singles star a few times. Always failing until they completely changed the persona. He actually had a PPV match against Scott Hall. Also, surprised no one has mentioned Hardcore Holly's mini push in late 2003-early 2004. We all know of the Lesnar title shot at Royal Rumble, but he was involved in other big matches, like a survivor series team with Angle against Lesnar, he was in a lot of Smackdown main events, etc. Steve Blackman had a PPV match at Summerslam against Shane McMahon. That's a pretty big deal. Also, Val Venis and Al Snow in late 1999.
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Johnny Flamingo
Hank Scorpio
Killing the business one post at a time
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Dec 22, 2014 14:27:04 GMT -5
This is my point, exactly. The numbers shifted because of the quality of the programming, not because of who was getting pushed. As you said, Hogan did not bring everybody running to WCW because the programming was just same ol'. When the nWo angle started, suddenly WCW's numbers started skyrocketing whereas WWE's started to tdrop, even though WWE was pushing new faces and doing all the things that people say "If only WCW had done this, they would still be going." Pushing Benoit, Jericho and all those guys into the main event would have done zip, zero, nada for WCW if their programming was awful, which it was. Pushing Rock, HHH, Angle and all those guys would have done zip, zero, nada for WWE had their programming been awful. All you have to do is look at the company from '93 to '95 and see how poorly they were faring while pushing a completely new generation of wrestlers, while fans were gradually shifting their attention to WCW to ride the nostalgia train with Hogan, Savage and the guys who were still the biggest stars in wrestling to many fans. Only because Jericho, Benoit, Malenko, Guerrero, etc became big stars in WCW did they become instant man eventers in WWE. Regardless of the fans interpretation of events at the time, there's no reason whatsoever to believe that many those names would not have been headlining WCW in 2000-2001 and onward. I can agree to that and I believe our thoughts are actually pretty close. Booking mistakes definitely killed WCW over who was in the main event or not. My belief is that there are only so many ways you can book pieces A,B,C and D. Eventually the booking will either become tired and predictable or the writing will start to have to many twists and turns to make it seem "fresh". Had they started to inset Jericho, Benoit, Eddie into the main event it could have created some fresh storylines for Hogan, Nash, Hall, DDP, Savage and Goldberg that could have kept the fans interested. Instead they got frustrated and went to WWE where they were allowed to immediately get a rub from the main event. That action showed the fans that WWE was listening to the fans while WCW was only worried about politics, or at least that is what the perception started to be among the fans. WWF/E had some horrible booking at this time as well. I just feel that fans had more patience with WWF/E at the end because of the perceptions built up.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 14:41:50 GMT -5
This is my point, exactly. The numbers shifted because of the quality of the programming, not because of who was getting pushed. As you said, Hogan did not bring everybody running to WCW because the programming was just same ol'. When the nWo angle started, suddenly WCW's numbers started skyrocketing whereas WWE's started to tdrop, even though WWE was pushing new faces and doing all the things that people say "If only WCW had done this, they would still be going." Pushing Benoit, Jericho and all those guys into the main event would have done zip, zero, nada for WCW if their programming was awful, which it was. Pushing Rock, HHH, Angle and all those guys would have done zip, zero, nada for WWE had their programming been awful. All you have to do is look at the company from '93 to '95 and see how poorly they were faring while pushing a completely new generation of wrestlers, while fans were gradually shifting their attention to WCW to ride the nostalgia train with Hogan, Savage and the guys who were still the biggest stars in wrestling to many fans. Only because Jericho, Benoit, Malenko, Guerrero, etc became big stars in WCW did they become instant man eventers in WWE. Regardless of the fans interpretation of events at the time, there's no reason whatsoever to believe that many those names would not have been headlining WCW in 2000-2001 and onward. I can agree to that and I believe our thoughts are actually pretty close. Booking mistakes definitely killed WCW over who was in the main event or not. My belief is that there are only so many ways you can book pieces A,B,C and D. Eventually the booking will either become tired and predictable or the writing will start to have to many twists and turns to make it seem "fresh". Had they started to inset Jericho, Benoit, Eddie into the main event it could have created some fresh storylines for Hogan, Nash, Hall, DDP, Savage and Goldberg that could have kept the fans interested. Instead they got frustrated and went to WWE where they were allowed to immediately get a rub from the main event. That action showed the fans that WWE was listening to the fans while WCW was only worried about politics, or at least that is what the perception started to be among the fans. WWF/E had some horrible booking at this time as well. I just feel that fans had more patience with WWF/E at the end because of the perceptions built up. I agree that they should have moved more fresh faces into the main event picture sooner than they did. I remember in '97 when Luger beat Hogan for the belt on Nitro and I was thrilled just because it was someone new, then he lost the belt back to Hogan a few days later at Road Wild. The Millionaire's Club angle had a lot of promise for just that reason, but Russo is notorious for starting great storylines that unravel within a month. Also agree that moving to WWE was a better choice for them at the time. I just don't think it was the Gettysburg for WCW like many do. I also fully believe that WCW could have recovered and done just fine had Turner still been running the show. AOL Time Warner simply did not know how to turn the product around and make it profitable again, and that's not because it was too far gone, but because they legitimately didn't know the first thing about wrestling or have the passion that Ted did for making it succeed. In 2001 they were moving in the right direction, but we all know how that ended.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Dec 23, 2014 1:44:55 GMT -5
The Killer Bees. History and the internet seem to have rewritten these guys to be JTTS like Koko B Ware and Sam Houston, but they were kept pretty strong throughout a huge part of their run. They never got a title run, and weren't given a whole lot of memorable feuds and angles, but they were always booked in a way that kept them completely credible and treated as real deal as the rest of the high-level teams of the time.
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Post by nickcave on Dec 23, 2014 2:06:32 GMT -5
Spike Dudley was always booked inexplicably well for his size and star power, I mean he was never booked as a credible threat to the top guys but he was booked pretty strong in the cruiserweight division and always seemed to have storylines and things that guys today would love to have.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 15:26:42 GMT -5
Vladimir Kozlov had wins over Undertaker, Triple H and Jeff Hardy and looked like he was on course for a World title reign at one point.
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