Mozenrath
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Posts: 121,010
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Post by Mozenrath on Dec 26, 2014 7:50:21 GMT -5
He was one of the best of all time on the mic. His delivery, timing, charisma, facial expressions, etc, were always on point, and as someone who was in HS/college during the MNW, I can say the Rock's promos fit that time period perfectly. His watered down Disney/PG stuff since coming back haven't been as good, but I think that's more the environment today than the Rock himself. I'm sure someone's already said it, but it isn't like he dialed back the "lol ur ghey" stuff any in his promos with Cena, so I don't know how much they could have possibly dialed him back.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2014 7:53:50 GMT -5
How the hell can a guy who drew as much money as The Rock be an overrated promo?
you don't sell PPV's on workrate, you sell them by cutting promos that makes people want to purchase the bloody shows.
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Post by eJm on Dec 26, 2014 9:01:03 GMT -5
Objectivity exists in EVERYTHING. Literally everything. That is why debates are a thing. Hell, that's why this whole forum is a thing. Are you confusing the word "objectively" with "subjectively"? ...yes. Yes I am. I retract my statement!
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Post by Red Impact on Dec 26, 2014 9:40:20 GMT -5
I don't think judging promos is completely devoid of objectivity, you can objectively say someone is better at delivery than someone else (see pipe bomb vs. dawn of McGillicutty), and objectively you can point out when someone's mic work doesn't get them over.
Obviously, there's a lot of subjectivity, I don't get the praise for Ryback's promoing (even if he does deliver them competently enough), but there is still some objectivity to be gained.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Dec 26, 2014 12:47:47 GMT -5
CM Punk destroyed Rock on the mic in the lead up to the Rumble in 2013, but I don't know if you can say for a fact that one is better than the other because its apples and oranges. Rock had flash. Punk had substance. Look at Jerichos debut. That might be the height of Catchphrase Spewing Rock. The lead up to the countdown clock is literally NOTHING but Rock catchphrases. Jericho was miles ahead of Rock that night. However, no one has ever had control of a crowd like Rock. People say Hogan, but thats bullshit. Hogan didn't have control over the crowd. The crowd cheered at what they were trained to cheer for. It's like the claims of Vickie being this great heel because the crowd boos "EXCUSE ME!". They are trained to boo that. Vickie used it as a crutch to the point where she'd say it even when the fans weren't booing. If the crowd didn't boo, Vickie would be lost. Hogan pretending to look out into a crowd while making stupid fish faces doesn't mean he's "reading the room". He's doing his schtick. Going through the motions. That's it. Rock really did have control over the crowd and would react in the moment to the things they reacted to... You're objectively wrong about Hogan. Crowds even favored an old Hogan over Rock in his prime. If they were trained to pop for him, why isn't anyone on the current roster getting the same kind of response?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2014 14:38:47 GMT -5
He was one of the best of all time on the mic. His delivery, timing, charisma, facial expressions, etc, were always on point, and as someone who was in HS/college during the MNW, I can say the Rock's promos fit that time period perfectly. His watered down Disney/PG stuff since coming back haven't been as good, but I think that's more the environment today than the Rock himself. I'm sure someone's already said it, but it isn't like he dialed back the "lol ur ghey" stuff any in his promos with Cena, so I don't know how much they could have possibly dialed him back. They had Rock scribble stuff on his hand so that Cena could deliberately use that against him. The Rock might be older, but I'm sure he could do a better improvised promo than 99% of people could do written, so I find it hard to believe he suddenly had to write notes on his hand to remember what to say. Stuff like that, in addition to Twitter hashtags and "PG" restrictions all play a part in his schtick not being as good now. The Attitude Era was a time where nothing was off limits, so someone as quick witted as the Rock could have a field day on the mic. Nowadays there are mouth breathers on the internet waiting to get offended by something so they can show how outraged they are on Twitter and other social media, so the Rock (and anyone else really) can't do half the stuff they used to. Even Austin's promos if he came back would be no where near his previous quality. That's why Punk is so good, because he was able to toe the line between being able to say impactful things and not offend any group of people to the point of fake Twitter apologies. It's a different time now, and I think everyone from the 80's and 90's would regress on the mic because of it. When you go from "here's the general idea, say what you want from there" to "here is your lines, say it word for word", it changes a lot of the potential impact.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2014 14:47:20 GMT -5
CM Punk destroyed Rock on the mic in the lead up to the Rumble in 2013, but I don't know if you can say for a fact that one is better than the other because its apples and oranges. Rock had flash. Punk had substance. Look at Jerichos debut. That might be the height of Catchphrase Spewing Rock. The lead up to the countdown clock is literally NOTHING but Rock catchphrases. Jericho was miles ahead of Rock that night. However, no one has ever had control of a crowd like Rock. People say Hogan, but thats bullshit. Hogan didn't have control over the crowd. The crowd cheered at what they were trained to cheer for. It's like the claims of Vickie being this great heel because the crowd boos "EXCUSE ME!". They are trained to boo that. Vickie used it as a crutch to the point where she'd say it even when the fans weren't booing. If the crowd didn't boo, Vickie would be lost. Hogan pretending to look out into a crowd while making stupid fish faces doesn't mean he's "reading the room". He's doing his schtick. Going through the motions. That's it. Rock really did have control over the crowd and would react in the moment to the things they reacted to... You're objectively wrong about Hogan. Crowds even favored an old Hogan over Rock in his prime. If they were trained to pop for him, why isn't anyone on the current roster getting the same kind of response? Agreed, I'm not sure what "trained to cheer for him" even means. The crowd in the 80's may have been more about kayfabe and more markish, but they didn't cheer because someone held up a sign that said "cheer", "boo", "laugh", etc. Hogan was incredible at controlling a crowd. Even at WM 18, you could tell Hogan and Rock switched roles (whether pre-planned or on the fly), and Hogan played to the crowd perfectly. He knew if he flexed, it would cause a reaction. Hogan staring at the crowd in the 80's and making "fish faces" (again not sure what that means) was to invoke a reaction. If he was selling, he'd look at the crowd to support him and give the him the energy to make a comeback. That's pretty basic stuff. Jake Roberts and other guys who are lauded for their "psychology" did the same thing. When it comes to The Rock, look at the reaction he would get when he got mad and very slowly took his glasses off during a promo. The crowd would erupt. Those little mannerisms make a huge difference. Hogan had similar tendencies. Him and Rock are definitely 1A and 1B in crowd control, in any order you prefer.
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Post by Red Impact on Dec 26, 2014 14:51:33 GMT -5
He was one of the best of all time on the mic. His delivery, timing, charisma, facial expressions, etc, were always on point, and as someone who was in HS/college during the MNW, I can say the Rock's promos fit that time period perfectly. His watered down Disney/PG stuff since coming back haven't been as good, but I think that's more the environment today than the Rock himself. I'm sure someone's already said it, but it isn't like he dialed back the "lol ur ghey" stuff any in his promos with Cena, so I don't know how much they could have possibly dialed him back. They pretty much dropped the fact that Cena started it after week 2, so there's something. Honestly, I think they deliberately scripted those promos to try to not have any real blame between them. Both Cena and Rock had good arguments besides "You're not here!" and "Fruity Pebbles!" but those are the things that got repeated over and over again. They clearly wanted a generational feud ala Hogan/Rock, and not a feud based on two guys who didn't like each other for more legitimate reasons.
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Post by James Fabiano on Dec 26, 2014 14:54:14 GMT -5
CRZ, is that you? And are you...WALKING?
Seriously, I agree that the Rock had the charisma to pull off his style of interview, but there was a time between 1999-2000 where he was REALLY repetitive. His best mic work of course was done as a heel.
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