Boo!
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,417
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Post by Boo! on Dec 25, 2014 8:02:18 GMT -5
I think if anything they listen to their audience too much. Someone gets cheered - quick scrap the weeks of planned television as a heel and turn him face. Ratings for a segment underwhelm? Quick halt his push immediately. Someone cut a good promo? Quick chuck that other guy out of the main event and put him in. He has a chant the crowd enjoys? Quick re-write the next 2 months of television. There's a difference between giving the audience what they want and pandering to every whim. A lot of fans think that unless the product changes as per crowd reaction of the week that they're somehow ignoring the audience. No episodic TV programme should be scripted on the fly but WWE programming is - primarily because of their own lack of vision but in no small part down to the desire to cater to what the last thing the fans expressed was. Bullplop. They've ignored audience reactions to guys time and time again, fed people with a genuine connection to the audience to people that don't in 18 seconds and flipped them from face to heel more times in 2-3 years than most guys do in decade long careers to try and kill their hear while pushing ahead with chosen one pushes for others. Their bloody mindedness has created a string of main eventers in name only, people who main event because that's their place on the card, not because they're a genuine attraction. Randy Orton, Sheamus, Alberto Del Rio, Reigns is getting that push, Drew McIntyre had that push until the incident with his wife and so on. Again someone who thinks the audience is the live crowd? The mindset is so myopic. They decide which direction to go based on a number of different indicators we have close to absolutely no access to. Live event crowd is just one of many, arguably in this day and age of being able to monitor viewing habits, merchandise sales and box-office appeal acutely - the live event reaction is probably one of the least important.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2014 8:12:15 GMT -5
Okay. Doesn't do anything to challenge my other points, and besides that, when arenas all over the world are pretty much backing the same point then you should probably eventually take the hint. Plus their big thing right now is the Network. That's what they're trying to sell and it's a service that's pretty much only going to appeal to the hardcore elite fans, the kinds of people who do buy tickets to the shows, so they should be trying to market mainly to them. And their main sources of income are their TV contracts which are static pay regardless of what they do and if anything they'd be better off trying to experiment given how they've been slowly losing viewers year after year with no end in sight, PPVs which are really just going to be bought by the people who are obsessively following the product (thus why the biggest drawing show of each year is still just bought by a fraction of their weekly worldwide audience), and ticket sales which, y'know, are going to the people reacting live and on hand. And speaking of, merchandise will get moved one way or another. It's not like heels are completely incapable of selling it - nWo much? - and if any kids really can't take their top guy being booed then they'll find someone else. Kids are fickle and stupid, let's be honest. At the end of the day WWE isn't the huge untouchable staple of pop culture with infinite money like they paint themselves as. Their stock prices pretty much stay locked in at one low rate (ignoring the rise after the Network announcement and launch which was always going to be temporary when shareholders caught up with what everyone with a sense of reality knew was going to happen), they badly overestimated the worth of their TV shows and got a fraction of what they thought they deserved, as said ratings have been sliding, the Network's a bust, and there've been very visible price cuts all over the board. They're not doing well. Way to insult a part of the audience to prove how smart and intelligence the audience are. Kids might be dumb but Mensa hardly has enough to warrant a special 'Wrestling fan' facebook page either. It's very difficult to grab the 'dumb kids' demographic. On the assumption Austin appealed to older fans, they've only really hit it big in the kiddie market with Hogan and later Cena so to paint them as 'dumb kids who'll support anything' is both disrespectful and entirely inaccurate. As for merchandise, see Punk's latest comments on the subject. When you turn heel your merchandise sales go waaaay down. Austin's did in 2001 and that was Stone Cold Steve Austin! You can't just cite what is a notable exception now nearly 20 years old and just think "that works" Punk probably just as much suffered from the fact that most of his post-heel turn merchandise was pretty terrible. Was anyone really seeing that stupid yellow shirt with the huge cartoony lightning bolt with the letters GTS floating over it and thinking, "Yes! That is just as awesome as the Best in the World shirt! Sold!"? Not saying he didn't lose some because of the heel turn, but it was probably due to some other factors just as much. And yes, kids are idiots. Not just wrestling fan kids, all kids. It just comes with the territory. I liked some terrible shit as a kid and could be swayed to some other stuff easily enough. It's just how it goes, no shame in it and it's just calling a spade a spade. As for Austin, business as a whole plummeted in 2001, probably more due to the 90s finally ending for real leading to the badass rebel attitude kind of beginning to fade, the rise of reality TV that was more and more coming into play, and the culling at the top of the card to where you suddenly had Austin, Taker, Kane, and a bunch of unproven commodities having to carry the load by themselves than just Austin turning heel. Though at the end of the day... So what? It's not my place to give a flying f*** about their financials or anything, I just think the company is complete ass, and regardless they need to stop sabotaging any future prospects that don't fit their ever-changing mold given how barren the roster is right now. Look at how Cena getting hurt last year forced them to resort to a Big Show push that was making ratings go down, getting poor crowd reactions, and led to the lowest Survivor Series buyrate in history. They have no back-up plans and they refuse to gamble on anybody from the future, they just keep trotting out the past over and over to diminishing returns. Maybe somebody else could sell merch as well as Cena does if they'd ever give them the same opportunities he's had.
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ICBM
King Koopa
Didn't know we did status updates here now
Posts: 12,288
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Post by ICBM on Dec 25, 2014 8:23:40 GMT -5
Four pages and nobody made an internet wrestling community joke mandated by our union? Ok if its up to me:
I saw this thread title and immediately thought it was in the wrong forum. Usually this is a TNA forum stalwart
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Post by Jedi-El of Tomorrow on Dec 25, 2014 8:26:16 GMT -5
Four pages and nobody made an internet wrestling community joke mandated by our union? Ok if its up to me: I saw this thread title and immediately thought it was in the wrong forum. Usually this is a TNA forum stalwart Low would be an improvement after the TNA Greatest Moments specials.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Dec 25, 2014 8:32:51 GMT -5
Again someone who thinks the audience is the live crowd? The mindset is so myopic. They decide which direction to go based on a number of different indicators we have close to absolutely no access to. Live event crowd is just one of many, arguably in this day and age of being able to monitor viewing habits, merchandise sales and box-office appeal acutely - the live event reaction is probably one of the least important. It took live crowds making moving heaven and earth to convince them not to go ahead with the Batista push, that's pretty much the only time in recent memory they have reconsidered a planned push based on audience reactions. They listen to the audience when it suits them, they don't cut the legs out from under a guy they want to push after a TV segment underperforms, it's just a convenient excuse when they want to depush someone that the live crowds react to that they don't have any plans for. The live crowds are the audience they should be catering to, they're the people who actually pay for the product rather than watch it on free TV yet the TV audience remains their priority.
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BigWill
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 16,619
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Post by BigWill on Dec 25, 2014 8:35:53 GMT -5
You actually think Vince will push someone simply because they stood up to him? I'd think that someone would more likely get laughed at in the face, and suddenly find themselves with a smaller paycheck and less screen time. Where's the evidence of this? It's just internet 'big bad Vince' conspiracy - over the years Vince has worked with and pushed and made money from and for some of the most beligerant assholes ever in the history of the business. The problem today is tht too many of the guys don't stand up for themselves and they just do as their told and they don't care about their character. Look at Ziggler vs Honky Tonk Man. One loses 5 times each month on television, the other outright refused to drop the title. Ziggler probably has more money, more security and a higher-standard of living than Honky ever had yet Honky Tonk was an obnoxious jerk and stood his ground and in the end got his way and Ziggler...is an irrelevance. It's not ALL the office, I'm sorry but growing a spine wouldn't hurt either. Evidence from Punk's podcast saying as much. That combined with the fact that there has to be some reason why the superstars are scared of speaking out means there has to be some truth to it. I mean Punk himself stood up to Vince, and didn't really get far with it. So where's your evidence that shows that speaking out is going to accomplish anything? And no, Honky Tonk being a jerk over 20 years ago in a completely different era doesn't cut it. And even if what you're saying is true, that's still just as bad, if not worse than the 'big bad Vince' conspiracies, as you call them. A superstar should be push based on their ability to entertain the fans, not based on a competition on who can be the biggest asshole and politician.
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Post by Red Impact on Dec 25, 2014 8:46:21 GMT -5
I think if anything they listen to their audience too much. Someone gets cheered - quick scrap the weeks of planned television as a heel and turn him face. Ratings for a segment underwhelm? Quick halt his push immediately. Someone cut a good promo? Quick chuck that other guy out of the main event and put him in. He has a chant the crowd enjoys? Quick re-write the next 2 months of television. Sometimes rewriting 2 months of television isn't a bad thing, such as when those 2 months of television was based on a faulty premises or terrible storytelling. Bryan's story arc is a prime example of it, they show him as a guy who gets screwed every step of the way when he rightfully deserves the title, and their end-game is for Batista to win the title? That needed to be rewritten, that was a bad story. It'd be like at the end of Rocky if Rocky lost in the first round, but it's ok because Muhammad Ali stormed the arena and knocked Apollo out. Wrestling is unlike any other genre, they have to be willing to be smart and make changes based on what is working and what isn't. The problem is that they're not smart about it, they flat out killed Ryder's money-potential because they decided to use him as a tool to continue to get Cena over, when Cena is the last person who needed that. I'm not a fan of Ryder, but I can say when they dropped the ball on a guy. They're quick to halt someone who slightly underwhelms, but they have no clue how to respond when someone they don't expect gets over. They don't instantly throw out the main event in that case (Fandango, anyone?), but they clearly can't figure out what to do if the crowd latches onto someone else. And I do agree that they are probably too beholden on ratings, especially when the ratings system is faulty.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Dec 25, 2014 10:46:21 GMT -5
Note to self; if i ever motherf*** my employees, make sure it's NOT recorded and avaible for everybody to hear. Could be worse I guess:
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Sparkybob
King Koopa
I have a status?
Posts: 10,989
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Post by Sparkybob on Dec 25, 2014 11:02:51 GMT -5
Well there are 2 ways to react to this in the lockerroom. Wrestler can either mope and feel disgruntled in their job, or they can decide to work even harder to shut Vince the f*** up. Note I'm not saying wrestlers have to do the 2nd one, rather that is probably the mindset Vince wants. It may work or it may blow up in Vince's face and he losses the locker room.
On another point in this thread, I'm very confident most of the workers who been around 3+ years have made some good money and can survive financially if fired so let's not pretend they are total victims. Are wrestlers still underpaid? I think so, but that doesn't mean guys like Swagger/Sandow/Ziggler haven't made some good money in their careers while also increasing their name presence which means they can make money off of things like autograph signings in the future.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2014 15:03:04 GMT -5
Note to self; if i ever motherf*** my employees, make sure it's NOT recorded and avaible for everybody to hear. Could be worse I guess: "D'Angelo Dinero, you are too Catholic, you are not connecting with the crowd."
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 25, 2014 15:05:13 GMT -5
lol
Yeah
That's their problem
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Dec 25, 2014 15:08:01 GMT -5
Note to self; if i ever motherf*** my employees, make sure it's NOT recorded and avaible for everybody to hear. Could be worse I guess: Eh, at least she said it to their faces. Worse would be if she went on a forum like the Today Show or the Tonight Show and said the roster wasn't worth shit.
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Post by Some Guy on Dec 25, 2014 15:20:54 GMT -5
Note to self; if i ever motherf*** my employees, make sure it's NOT recorded and avaible for everybody to hear. Could be worse I guess: Yeah but look at the guys that have gotten pushes in the last couple of years; Bully Ray, Bobby Roode, James Storm, Austin Aries, a rejuvenated Bobby Lashley...obviously the situation is MUCH different than the WWE, but at least they try to push new guys more consistently.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Dec 25, 2014 16:17:38 GMT -5
Eh I meant worse in the sense that aired on their show. Granted, I guess the Vince thing 'aired' on the Network; but hell it's not like that reached even a fraction of their audience.
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Venti
Unicron
Posts: 2,993
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Post by Venti on Dec 25, 2014 20:55:46 GMT -5
I remember the days of Low Morale being in TNA. Now he's hanging around the WWE locker rooms. What do you reckon his NXT generated name will be? High Unhappiness?
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Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
Surviving
Posts: 28,884
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Post by Sephiroth on Dec 25, 2014 21:59:14 GMT -5
Part of me is almost hoping for CM Punk to be ridiculously successful in whatever ventures he chooses outside of WWE just as a way of kind of shoving it in Vince's face, "You know what? We don't need you as much as you need us!"
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Post by Seth Drakin of Monster Crap on Dec 25, 2014 22:27:37 GMT -5
If the low morale does exist, it is deserved. Vince put a foot in his mouth many times, which I knew would happen and was why I originally watched the interview. Vince was probably best off never doing the podcast, but hey....he learned the hard way you are better off being silent and making sure there is no proof you said anything stupid.
Cesaro I'm sure knew WWE and Vince had problems with him, I think what Cesaro and others should be pissed about was the dig on his nationality. That was completely uncalled for and I would have probably confronted Vince about that. It's an insult to use someone's nationality for a reason they can't get over.
The millennial comment is also something he NEVER should have said because that just comes off as an old man talking about those damn kids. As soon as he thought about it, he should have completely realized that really won't sound good and erased it from his memory.
I also think morale gets even worse seeing how good NXT is (which is supposed to be developmental, mind you) and then see the crap they have to work with when getting "called up". I mean, you are supposed to be proud of being good enough to be called up, but if this continues, you are going to see people dread being called up and no company can want people to dread a promotion.
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 25, 2014 22:29:43 GMT -5
WWE tries to shove square pegs in round holes. Cesaro is a mechanic. If he has the ability but lacks the intangible qualities and the mic work, then put him in a tag team where someone else can handle the charisma and speaking, while he handles the bulk of the match. It's called horses for courses. You find the right role for the wrestler in question.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2014 22:34:57 GMT -5
Low Morale sounds like the name of a heel midget with an army Drill Sergeant gimmick.
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 25, 2014 22:46:52 GMT -5
Low Morale sounds like the name of a heel midget with an army Drill Sergeant gimmick. Sounds like Hornswoggle just found his new role.
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