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Post by Hypnosis on Dec 25, 2014 22:51:38 GMT -5
Low Morale sounds like the name of a heel midget with an army Drill Sergeant gimmick. Slaughter:"So I got this little maggot imitatin' me, huh?!"
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2014 22:52:56 GMT -5
Low Morale sounds like the name of a heel midget with an army Drill Sergeant gimmick. Slaughter:"So I got this little maggot imitatin' me, huh?!" You know, since they both have big ass chins, why didn't the Great Khali ever imitate Sarge?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2014 23:01:00 GMT -5
The live crowds are the audience they should be catering to, they're the people who actually pay for the product rather than watch it on free TV yet the TV audience remains their priority. WWE makes more money from television rights fees than they do from live events.
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BigWill
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Post by BigWill on Dec 25, 2014 23:07:55 GMT -5
The live crowds are the audience they should be catering to, they're the people who actually pay for the product rather than watch it on free TV yet the TV audience remains their priority. WWE makes more money from television rights fees than they do from live events. Also bad TV would negatively impact the WWE in other areas as well. No one's going to be buying merch, attending live shows, or subscribing to the network if the episodes they're watching at home aren't entertaining.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2014 23:10:30 GMT -5
The live crowds are the audience they should be catering to, they're the people who actually pay for the product rather than watch it on free TV yet the TV audience remains their priority. WWE makes more money from television rights fees than they do from live events. Yeah, but their approach to TV isn't working. Besides the slowly slipping ratings - which themselves don't actually influence how much money WWE gets week to week, but do hurt their potential for how much networks will pay them come the next renewal - they badly undershot their goal for how much they wanted out of renewing their contracts and vastly overrated their worth, which just goes to show that if they do want to start hitting the areas they're wanting to they need to stop with the same tired formula that's been failing them for the past decade.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Dec 26, 2014 6:50:33 GMT -5
While ratings are slipping, WWE is still very important to USA keeping themselves in the top 10 of basic cable channels. As long as USA is happy, WWE still will sit at the head of the table. Especially considering besides them, Chrisley Knows Best is holding up the network.
But since TNA is one foot in the grave, Low Morale jumped ship to WWE.
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Post by Jedi-El of Tomorrow on Dec 26, 2014 6:52:49 GMT -5
Especially considering besides them, Chrisley Knows Best is holding up the network. How dare you insult Suits like that? Louis Litt is a hero, and that show is better than Chrisley.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Dec 26, 2014 6:56:39 GMT -5
Especially considering besides them, Chrisley Knows Best is holding up the network. How dare you insult Suits like that? Louis Litt is a hero, and that show is better than Chrisley. I didn't say Chrisley was good. Just that it somehow either due to dark magic or the dumbing down of humans, it is a success for them. Suits been iffy as far as ratings.
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Johnny Flamingo
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Dec 26, 2014 7:57:40 GMT -5
I still don't see what was so wrong with what Vince did. Reminded me of a few coaches I had in college. They would say things like "If we only had some heart on this team we could be much better." The end result of calling out the team publicly was for the team to respond by working out butts off and proving to the coach that no only did we have the heart but were capable of much more. It also helped weed out those who really didn't want to go that extra step to win. The ones who were willing to go the extra step needed would step up their game, those who didn't usually complained about it and eventually quit. The team was better off once those types of people were gone.
I still only see it as Vince trying to rally the troops and weed out those who really don't want to push themselves to that next level.
With that said, I do find the mid-card booking in WWE right now to be quite horrible.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 26, 2014 9:42:23 GMT -5
I've seen people bring up the divide between appealing to home viewers during Raw or a PPV (playing to the hard camera, not giving live audiences what they want, etc.) and getting over with the paying customers at the shows. Something I don't think we can lose sight of here is that wrestling directly benefits from a crowd that's into what it's watching; people who are only casual viewers are infinitely more likely to switch to and stick with a wrestling show if the live audience sounds like it's having a good time.
Plus, playing to the live audience is a fantastic avenue for a wrestler to demonstrate his/her personality; ask any improv actor or comedian, playing off the live crowd (not talking about hecklers, but as part of the show) is a simple and effective way to keep sharp and to get a reaction. If everything on your show involves playing to the hard camera and an audience nobody can see or hear, you're missing a crucial aspect of your show, and it could be contributing to why some guys end up having such a tough time getting over. I recognize WWE can't and won't do crowd interactions in the same way an indy running in a 300-1,000 seat venue would, but you get my point.
And yes, I totally recognize that you can't always give the audience what it wants; some of the best wrestling programs of all time have involved denying the audience the cathartic moment until they were willing to pay for it at a bigger venue/bigger card/etc. The issue there is that WWE recycles matches so much on a weekly basis that they don't even really give the audience a chance to experience that anymore, either.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2014 9:48:20 GMT -5
I still don't see what was so wrong with what Vince did. Reminded me of a few coaches I had in college. They would say things like "If we only had some heart on this team we could be much better." The end result of calling out the team publicly was for the team to respond by working out butts off and proving to the coach that no only did we have the heart but were capable of much more. It also helped weed out those who really didn't want to go that extra step to win. The ones who were willing to go the extra step needed would step up their game, those who didn't usually complained about it and eventually quit. The team was better off once those types of people were gone. I still only see it as Vince trying to rally the troops and weed out those who really don't want to push themselves to that next level. With that said, I do find the mid-card booking in WWE right now to be quite horrible. But a sports team and WWE have almost nothing in common. A football or basketball team, for example, has to work together and players must push one another because they all can buoy one another to success. They all benefit if they work harder because they stand out against their competition. In WWE, the different wrestlers are their own competition. If you're not a main eventer, you constantly risk getting put into silly angles that will kill your momentum, and once your momentum is killed, you get to hear the dreaded "Creative has got nothing for you" line and you're shown the door. Spots are few and far in between and the performers squabble with one another like hyenas on a carcass, refusing to stand up because it will do nothing except result in someone else getting their spot instead.
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Johnny Flamingo
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Dec 26, 2014 10:04:31 GMT -5
I still don't see what was so wrong with what Vince did. Reminded me of a few coaches I had in college. They would say things like "If we only had some heart on this team we could be much better." The end result of calling out the team publicly was for the team to respond by working out butts off and proving to the coach that no only did we have the heart but were capable of much more. It also helped weed out those who really didn't want to go that extra step to win. The ones who were willing to go the extra step needed would step up their game, those who didn't usually complained about it and eventually quit. The team was better off once those types of people were gone. I still only see it as Vince trying to rally the troops and weed out those who really don't want to push themselves to that next level. With that said, I do find the mid-card booking in WWE right now to be quite horrible. But a sports team and WWE have almost nothing in common. A football or basketball team, for example, has to work together and players must push one another because they all can buoy one another to success. They all benefit if they work harder because they stand out against their competition. In WWE, the different wrestlers are their own competition. If you're not a main eventer, you constantly risk getting put into silly angles that will kill your momentum, and once your momentum is killed, you get to hear the dreaded "Creative has got nothing for you" line and you're shown the door. Spots are few and far in between and the performers squabble with one another like hyenas on a carcass, refusing to stand up because it will do nothing except result in someone else getting their spot instead. Not entirely true. I ran track in college so my teammates were competition. When it came down to running in meets or qualifying for finals my teammates were my direct competition. If I didn't outperform my teammate he would get the event I wanted to race in while I would get stuck in an event that I didn't want/didn't feel as comfortable competing in. There were some senior runners who were not very good in practice but when they would race they were consistently pulling in the best times. Some younger guys would constantly outperform them in practice yet the seniors would get the nod for race day. Some of the guys would get frustrated, complain about not getting the chance and quit while others would put in more work. I think Vince is simply trying to see which ones willing to go that extra mile. In the end he may be trying to weed away a dew guys because he has guys that he feels could take their place (Neville, Zayn) and is trying to light a fire under them before ultimately letting them go or significantly reduce their roles.
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kidglov3s
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Post by kidglov3s on Dec 26, 2014 10:11:13 GMT -5
I still don't see what was so wrong with what Vince did. Reminded me of a few coaches I had in college. They would say things like "If we only had some heart on this team we could be much better." The end result of calling out the team publicly was for the team to respond by working out butts off and proving to the coach that no only did we have the heart but were capable of much more. It also helped weed out those who really didn't want to go that extra step to win. The ones who were willing to go the extra step needed would step up their game, those who didn't usually complained about it and eventually quit. The team was better off once those types of people were gone. I still only see it as Vince trying to rally the troops and weed out those who really don't want to push themselves to that next level. With that said, I do find the mid-card booking in WWE right now to be quite horrible. I think if you imagined an ideal utopic Randian meritocracy, where can-do effort and talent would win the day, you can then imagine the opposite of that and you have WWE, and honestly more/less pro wrestling in general.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Dec 26, 2014 10:11:45 GMT -5
I still don't see what was so wrong with what Vince did. Reminded me of a few coaches I had in college. They would say things like "If we only had some heart on this team we could be much better." The end result of calling out the team publicly was for the team to respond by working out butts off and proving to the coach that no only did we have the heart but were capable of much more. It also helped weed out those who really didn't want to go that extra step to win. The ones who were willing to go the extra step needed would step up their game, those who didn't usually complained about it and eventually quit. The team was better off once those types of people were gone. I still only see it as Vince trying to rally the troops and weed out those who really don't want to push themselves to that next level. With that said, I do find the mid-card booking in WWE right now to be quite horrible. It's not really a pep talk when anyone who's worked there or watched for any length of time has seen people reaching for the brass ring only to have their hand slapped away and the ring handed to a preferred wrestler with has less talent and drive. Management are intentionally limiting what certain people can do while protecting others like they're made out of gold and glass. How is a guy like Cesaro who has his gimmick and moveset stripped from him bit by bit and given nothing to work with meant to go out and impress? He's not someone who goes out there and halfasses it but management have left him treading water for no real reason. If you try too hard, you go to management to plead your case you're unlikely to get rewarded, you're more likely to be given a whiner gimmick and get crushed on live TV, but if you stay quiet and do your job, you get a 5 year stint and maybe a push every now and again when the WWE's ADHD owner realises you exist. That's the atmosphere the WWE have spent the past decade intentionally cultivating, they can't turn around and then blame the talent for that and expect it to motivate them.
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Johnny Flamingo
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Dec 26, 2014 10:15:18 GMT -5
I still don't see what was so wrong with what Vince did. Reminded me of a few coaches I had in college. They would say things like "If we only had some heart on this team we could be much better." The end result of calling out the team publicly was for the team to respond by working out butts off and proving to the coach that no only did we have the heart but were capable of much more. It also helped weed out those who really didn't want to go that extra step to win. The ones who were willing to go the extra step needed would step up their game, those who didn't usually complained about it and eventually quit. The team was better off once those types of people were gone. I still only see it as Vince trying to rally the troops and weed out those who really don't want to push themselves to that next level. With that said, I do find the mid-card booking in WWE right now to be quite horrible. I think if you imagined an ideal utopic Randian meritocracy, where can-do effort and talent would win the day, you can then imagine the opposite of that and you have WWE, and honestly more/less pro wrestling in general. That's pretty much nearly every job in the corporate world. Just because you are the best doesn't mean you will rise.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2014 10:16:47 GMT -5
But a sports team and WWE have almost nothing in common. A football or basketball team, for example, has to work together and players must push one another because they all can buoy one another to success. They all benefit if they work harder because they stand out against their competition. In WWE, the different wrestlers are their own competition. If you're not a main eventer, you constantly risk getting put into silly angles that will kill your momentum, and once your momentum is killed, you get to hear the dreaded "Creative has got nothing for you" line and you're shown the door. Spots are few and far in between and the performers squabble with one another like hyenas on a carcass, refusing to stand up because it will do nothing except result in someone else getting their spot instead. Not entirely true. I ran track in college so my teammates were competition. When it came down to running in meets or qualifying for finals my teammates were my direct competition. If I didn't outperform my teammate he would get the event I wanted to race in while I would get stuck in an event that I didn't want/didn't feel as comfortable competing in. At least in track, performance can be measured with numbers, i.e. how much time in x minutes it took to run y laps. In track, if you are the fastest runner with the best endurance and never get hurt, you are guaranteed to succeed based upon winning things by your own merit, are you not? In professional wrestling, there is no such thing. The only meaningful indicators of performance in WWE (merchandise sales, crowd reaction, TV ratings per segment, etc.) are all affected by how the company chooses to present you. And in the company's mindset, only a handful of people at any given time are worth presenting meaningfully. That's been a source of infighting within wrestling for decades, not only in WWE but in companies in general. It's a problem inherent to pro wrestling. It can be mitigated by a leader who is obligated to give everyone a chance based on their own merit alone, but no one in WWE has ever seriously tried that.
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Johnny Flamingo
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Dec 26, 2014 10:18:03 GMT -5
If you try too hard, you go to management to plead your case you're unlikely to get rewarded, you're more likely to be given a whiner gimmick and get crushed on live TV, but if you stay quiet and do your job, you get a 5 year stint and maybe a push every now and again when the WWE's ADHD owner realises you exist. That's the atmosphere the WWE have spent the past decade intentionally cultivating, they can't turn around and then blame the talent for that and expect it to motivate them. On that same token Austin, Jericho, Foley and HBK all questioned Vince and all spoke up and ended up better for it. Foley straight up told Vince that his original idea was terrible. Plenty of people have said that Vince wants people to stand up and that he hates people who are satisfied with their current place/status-quo
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Johnny Flamingo
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Dec 26, 2014 10:23:35 GMT -5
At least in track, performance can be measured with numbers, i.e. how much time in x minutes it took to run y laps. In track, if you are the fastest runner with the best endurance and never get hurt, you are guaranteed to succeed based upon winning things by your own merit, are you not? Yes and no. There were guys who had better times in practice than some of the older runners. However, the older guys would always do well once race day came. Therefore the coach played it safe and put his money on the guys who did consistently perform. Some of the younger guys resented that and felt they weren't getting a chance to prove themselves. Some complained and a few let it mentally get to them and their performance started to suffer. others would use that rejection as motivation and bust out times in the events they were place in. Eventually those guys rose up the ranks and started getting shots. Our coach used calling us out to see which guys would push themselves and which wouldn't. Main reason was at the end of the race you needed to know who could fight through the pain and who couldn't. I know it isn't an exact analogy but that is the way I'm interpreting it.
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kidglov3s
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Post by kidglov3s on Dec 26, 2014 10:39:59 GMT -5
I feel like as I read this thread there's a certain school of thought that "No, we can move forward, within this hamster wheel, if we just run fast enough". Like Boxer saying "I must work harder". And a decrepit system like WWE in many ways depends upon a school of thought like that.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Dec 26, 2014 11:08:27 GMT -5
Part of me is almost hoping for CM Punk to be ridiculously successful in whatever ventures he chooses outside of WWE just as a way of kind of shoving it in Vince's face, "You know what? We don't need you as much as you need us!" I'm not a fan of MMA in the least, but seeing Punk vs. Lesnar in a shoot fight rather than in a wrestling ring would vaguely interest me.
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