Johnny Flamingo
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Dec 26, 2014 11:39:23 GMT -5
I feel like as I read this thread there's a certain school of thought that "No, we can move forward, within this hamster wheel, if we just run fast enough". Like Boxer saying "I must work harder". And a decrepit system like WWE in many ways depends upon a school of thought like that. I think the thought process is that if everyone works harder then the product will improve overall. Such as the mid-card will improve which will improve the Main event as they will have to protect their spot. It's the basic style of management in the corporate world as well. Everyone should do their best for the benefit of the company and then everyone can reap the rewards as it will improve business. There is some truth to that logic and I think Vince wants people to start stepping up their game and develop a chip. The problem with WWE right now is that so little focus and solid angles are given to the midcard that they really have little room to "step up" and aren't booked in ways that make them seem credible. Perfect booking of a mid card was Bret Hart - Perfect. Solid mid card feud that was treated as a big deal with a belt that was treated as a very valued and prized possession. During the match the announcers were treating the match very seriously and complimented the match a great deal. The end result was one of the better matches in WWF/E history where both men came out looking better and really cemented Bret as a singles star. Aside from rate occasions when watching a mid card match now the announcers are rarely focused on the match and are instead either recapping what happened earlier or talking about a match about to come up.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Dec 26, 2014 12:39:00 GMT -5
On that same token Austin, Jericho, Foley and HBK all questioned Vince and all spoke up and ended up better for it. Foley straight up told Vince that his original idea was terrible. Plenty of people have said that Vince wants people to stand up and that he hates people who are satisfied with their current place/status-quo Those examples happened over a decade ago ago, the WWF was desperate for new ideas that could drag them out of the rut they were in, fastforward 10 years and the situation is quite different. Vince is comfortable to the point of complacency, his enemies in wrestling have been vanquished and the WWE are to wrestling what the NBA are to professional basketball so has no need to shake things up because the talent are unhappy. People who challenge Vince now aren't rewarded, they're told what they want to hear then nothing ever comes of it, and the planned pushes roll on. Had Vince had this bloody minded attitude back then, Mark Mero, Mark Henry, bluechipper Rocky Miavia and Hunter Hearst Helmsley would have headlined the Attitude era while the Ringmaster and Mankind would have returned to ECW, never reaching the heights they saw.
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Dr. T is an alien
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Dec 26, 2014 12:46:07 GMT -5
I think this whole thing if true just makes Vince's point for him. He, as the top man in the company, doesn't want to see people moping around because their feelings are hurt. He wants to see people do whatever it takes to make something of themselves. He wants to see people grow into true big stars that can appeal to the WWE audience, which is a cross section of the whole viewing public. Someone like Wyatt has created something that means he can go out there and do it. He isn't 'hamstrung by the writers' because he has stepped up and made something of himself. So has Ambrose. Rollins and Reigns are also doing well at being stars that appeal (or get reactions from) the wide cross section of the WWE audience. Someone like Cesaro, as much as I like him, hasn't done that with that with all segments of the audience yet. He needs something that's going to put him over the top. To make him larger than life. Something that means not only smarks and Europeans pop for him, but everyone can identify in some way with that character. It's not about being coddled, Vince desperately wants people to step up. But stepping up means being a star that will appeal to the WWE audience. That's what he needs. Not people moping around. That's all well and good but Vince's history still indicates that he is capable of being incredibly random and petty even when someone does something for himself. Zach Ryder did something on his own, forced them to push him to the best of his abilities, and got shit all over immediately afterwards. Some people act like that should not matter because he never was going to be a top guy, but there is nothing wrong with being a successful midcard act. Hacksaw Jim Duggan fit that category and was never treated terribly because he was never going to be a top guy. Hell, he was even allowed to win the first Royal Rumble. Ryder reached for the brass ring, proved himself to be at least worthy of a decent midcard role, and was jobbed out and does not even appear on TV now. Another guy who did something on his own was Matt Hardy. Matt Hardy V1 was all his. He tried to get pushed. He tried to get the writers to write good things for him. Understandably, Matt Hardy was not a top priority for the writers but they could not be bothered to write for anyone not at the top of the roster. Finally, he asked if he could write some stuff himself. Happy to get him out of their hair, they let him do it, resulting in V1. Sure, it was some of the dorkiest stuff they ever aired but it worked. He was rewarded for his initiative with a decent spot on the roster, but that did not insulate him from being susceptible to Vince's petty nature. Lita had a bad match and snapped at Vince when he tried to give her some advice. Instead of yelling at her or punishing her by depushing her, Vince punished her by derailing MATT'S push. Matt was put on total job status for a few months until he got Lita to apologize to Vince. Of course, Matt's career was a constant yo-yo of earning a better spot than any expected of him only to get derailed. - The Hardy's were brought in to be jobbers and were for years. They started dressing themselves in those godawful plaid outfits to stand out from the other jobbers and eventually endeared themselves to the fans enough that they were signed and given Hayes as a manager. They then designed their own gimmick and got over huge. - Matt was an afterthought and used the V1 gimmick to be one of the better things on Smackdown. I still feel that his main even match with Rey was one of the best things done on Smackdown for some time (and one of the last times Rey's push did not seemed forced). - Matt got fired for getting upset over Edge and Lita. How dare he? Sure, him talking online hurt the product but it is not like he talked first. I seem to recall that the rumors circulated for months before he finally answered fans' questions about it and then started venting. After being fired he rallied his fans and demonstrated that he had a pretty decent following; enough that it was obvious that they should have simply moved him to Smackdown rather than fire him. - Matt was in a pretty good spot after the Edge feud ended and he moved to Smackdown. This was derailed when someone decided that Survivor Series was supposed to end by having Orton win for Smackdown, Team Smackdown celebrate the win in the ring, and then have the Undertaker (a face on Smackdown) come after Orton (a heel on Smackdown), and have a bunch of jobbers and Hardy (a face on Smackdown) run interference on the Undertaker so Orton could escape. Matt told them it was stupid for his character, who had every reason to dislike Orton, to defend him from getting a beating that he had earned. He told them he would not do it and then proceeded to not do it. When Undertaker had it pointed out to him, he bitched about it and Matt was depushed because he cared about the product making sense (it is not as though he minded getting squashed by UT as a heel a few years earlier). - Matt kind of floundered around but was never in a bad spot. Runs with the US title, tag titles, and the ECW title all went fairly well. He finally looked poised to have a run as a top heel when his last match with Jeff (who had lost every match to Matt up to that point, including at WM) ended with Matt's hand getting broke. Rather than have him just cut heel promos and do run-ins for a month, someone thought it would be great to saddle him with Iron Mike Sharpe's gimmick, which was old and uninteresting when Sharpe did it. That derailed most of his momentum. Honestly, he would have been better off getting surgery for his hernia and taken time off. That would have hurt his career less than that terrible booking. Still, I don't know if this last one fits in with the rest. For all I know, the gimmick was Matt's idea.
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Johnny Flamingo
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Dec 26, 2014 12:55:49 GMT -5
On that same token Austin, Jericho, Foley and HBK all questioned Vince and all spoke up and ended up better for it. Foley straight up told Vince that his original idea was terrible. Plenty of people have said that Vince wants people to stand up and that he hates people who are satisfied with their current place/status-quo Those examples happened over a decade ago ago, the WWF was desperate for new ideas that could drag them out of the rut they were in, fastforward 10 years and the situation is quite different. Vince is comfortable to the point of complacency, his enemies in wrestling have been vanquished and the WWE are to wrestling what the NBA are to professional basketball so has no need to shake things up because the talent are unhappy. People who challenge Vince now aren't rewarded, they're told what they want to hear then nothing ever comes of it, and the planned pushes roll on. Had Vince had this bloody minded attitude back then, Mark Mero, Mark Henry, bluechipper Rocky Miavia and Hunter Hearst Helmsley would have headlined the Attitude era while the Ringmaster and Mankind would have returned to ECW, never reaching the heights they saw. Thing is those guys never outright challenged Vince. Mankind took the gimmick and asked for a few changes, with good reason, to make it better. Austin tried the green tights and then changed back to black. Jericho even argued for minor things such as going from pants to trunks. They understood how to play the game. They took what WWE gave them and basically argued for tweaks. This way they were not directly disagreeing with Vince, just adding to "his" idea. I don't think Vince wants people to outright challenge him as much as he wants them to take what they are given and use their ability to get the gimmick to connect in the same way that Foley, Austin and Jericho did. By and large Vince is very controlling. They understood that and did what they had to do to get over. I wonder if some of the newer guys don't understand how to play that game.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Dec 26, 2014 12:55:55 GMT -5
Look, I don't see why Jay-Z got so upset when Nas dropped "Ether." He was just trying to light a fire under him!
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Johnny Flamingo
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Dec 26, 2014 13:02:54 GMT -5
Look, I don't see why Jay-Z got so upset when Nas dropped "Ether." He was just trying to light a fire under him! It's all in how you respond. Using a rap analogy, Eazy E's best selling album was "It's On (Dr Dre) 187um killa", which was a response to "The Chronic" That's about the extent of my knowledge about rap. Don't know anything about the Jay-Z - Nas feud to be honest.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Dec 26, 2014 13:11:11 GMT -5
Look, I don't see why Jay-Z got so upset when Nas dropped "Ether." He was just trying to light a fire under him! It's all in how you respond. Using a rap analogy, Eazy E's best selling album was "It's On (Dr Dre) 187um killa", which was a response to "The Chronic" That's about the extent of my knowledge about rap. Don't know anything about the Jay-Z - Nas feud to be honest. I was joking. "Ether" was written for the purpose of shitting all over Jay (according to Nas, the title of the track came from his desire to hurt Jay's soul with the song) and was a response to a previous song Hov made called "Takeover." It's a dope track, a classic you could even say, but it's a track that ended up doing a lot more harm than good as it only heated up the beef between the two and made things significantly worse than they were before
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2014 13:37:51 GMT -5
I still don't see what was so wrong with what Vince did. Reminded me of a few coaches I had in college. They would say things like "If we only had some heart on this team we could be much better." The end result of calling out the team publicly was for the team to respond by working out butts off and proving to the coach that no only did we have the heart but were capable of much more. It also helped weed out those who really didn't want to go that extra step to win. The ones who were willing to go the extra step needed would step up their game, those who didn't usually complained about it and eventually quit. The team was better off once those types of people were gone. I still only see it as Vince trying to rally the troops and weed out those who really don't want to push themselves to that next level. With that said, I do find the mid-card booking in WWE right now to be quite horrible. I think there's a difference between privately telling them, "Okay, you need to step it up, guys," and going out in a public forum and saying, "Almost everyone working for me is useless and it's their own fault we don't want to do anything with them." Even if it did succeed in firing them up, which by all signs it did not, it's still idiotic to say in public because it's basically telling viewers not to bother with your show because most of the people on it suck.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2014 13:43:47 GMT -5
The company as a whole is bullshit.
They can preach the "do what it takes to get over and you'll be rewarded" thing all they want but it's crap. Cena a few weeks ago saying they should prove the heads wrongis useless because we've seen plenty times that no matter how many times you get over, it doesn't matter. This company pushes guys they see particular traits in and then from that it depends on who you are. That's how it is these days. The previous mindset would work for the Attitude Era but it's not the Attitude Era anymore, it's 2014 and it all depends on what the heads think. You can have the look, not be liked by the crowd and be crappy in the ring and the company will give you a push just because of that. All the while, a guy who's great in the ring, getting over and has backing to him will be lower on the card. I thought getting over despite what everyone says does it, nope, it doesn't.
Getting over doesn't mean a thing these days.
The only guy who went over these days based on those comments is Daniel Bryan and do you know what it took?
- Being held back for years - Yes Movement and a legion of fans exploding over the show and product worldwide - CM Punk leaving - Batista being rejected - Bryan improving in all areas especially character-wise and his connection with the fans - Bryan being on Total Divas which actually helped him - Bryan being liked by everyone backstage so much that he even got into a shouting match with Triple H in front of everyone he wasn't buried one bit - Vincent Kennedy McMahon being a HUGE fan of Daniel Bryan - Bryan putting his all in everything he does and constantly having MOTN repeatedly, turning everything bad into gold
It took all of this for someone to break through and suddenly that comment applies to everyone?
f*** outta here. Bryan's a special case.
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Lupin the Third
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Post by Lupin the Third on Dec 26, 2014 13:48:20 GMT -5
I feel like as I read this thread there's a certain school of thought that "No, we can move forward, within this hamster wheel, if we just run fast enough". Like Boxer saying "I must work harder". And a decrepit system like WWE in many ways depends upon a school of thought like that. So is John Cena the equivalent of Boxer? Because if so, that's barbaric!!!!
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Post by Seth Drakin of Monster Crap on Dec 26, 2014 13:52:19 GMT -5
While ratings are slipping, WWE is still very important to USA keeping themselves in the top 10 of basic cable channels. As long as USA is happy, WWE still will sit at the head of the table. Especially considering besides them, Chrisley Knows Best is holding up the network. But since TNA is one foot in the grave, Low Morale jumped ship to WWE. Yeah, but you can't have that mindset or eventually USA, like any network, will see slumping ratings for a show (even if it is still better than their other shows) and get the idea to try something else. Remember that wrestling is still not looked at well by many TV execs and if given the chance, they will do a new approach.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2014 13:59:41 GMT -5
I still find it laughable that people are trying to claim that Vince was trying to "rally the troops" with his whole brass ring stuff on Austin's podcast. If he gathered everyone together and gave them that speech (or a better version of it at least) then maybe I'd buy it, but this was just Dixie Carter levels of stupid like when she did that big speech when Hogan came in and put it on TV.
Seems to me that Vince was just talking about his frustrations with how he percieves the majority of his independent contractors. I also find it interesting that the big 4 names that he mentioned as showing "initiative" were basically all relatively new hires, compared to everyone else he glossed over. He's like a kid who is more interested in his shiny new toys and doesn't care about the ones he's already played with. Rollins, Ambrose, and Reigns aren't doing anything extraordinary to "grab the brass ring" they're just being given a lot better positioning by management. Not to say they're not talented, because they are.
Just think about how many times Reigns has basically done terrible promos and they STILL give him the mic. Anyone not on "Vince's most favored toys" list would have been forgotten about by now.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2014 14:02:40 GMT -5
I still find it laughable that people are trying to claim that Vince was trying to "rally the troops" with his whole brass ring stuff on Austin's podcast. If he gathered everyone together and gave them that speech (or a better version of it at least) then maybe I'd buy it, but this was just Dixie Carter levels of stupid like when she did that big speech when Hogan came in and put it on TV. Seems to me that Vince was just talking about his frustrations with how he percieves the majority of his independent contractors. I also find it interesting that the big 4 names that he mentioned as showing "initiative" were basically all relatively new hires, compared to everyone else he glossed over. He's like a kid who is more interested in his shiny new toys and doesn't care about the ones he's already played with. Rollins, Ambrose, and Reigns aren't doing anything extraordinary to "grab the brass ring" they're just being given a lot better positioning by management. Not to say they're not talented, because they are. Just think about how many times Reigns has basically terrible promos and they STILL give him the mic. Anyone not on "Vince's most favored toys" list would have been forgotten about by now. I love the Shield and Bray. Their characters, things they've done, I mean they're great but the fact is that they were pushed as the biggest and best guys on the roster compared to all of these new teams. All 4 of these people have been booked as legit guys who constantly went over known entities in the company repeatedly. They went toe to toe and lived to tell the tale. It's no surprise that Vince put them over because frankly speaking, if they let someone like Sami Zayn go over all the old guard too then Vince would be giving him that same praise. I think they all deserve it but they really need to book everyone as a whole.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Dec 26, 2014 14:04:11 GMT -5
While ratings are slipping, WWE is still very important to USA keeping themselves in the top 10 of basic cable channels. As long as USA is happy, WWE still will sit at the head of the table. Especially considering besides them, Chrisley Knows Best is holding up the network. But since TNA is one foot in the grave, Low Morale jumped ship to WWE. Yeah, but you can't have that mindset or eventually USA, like any network, will see slumping ratings for a show (even if it is still better than their other shows) and get the idea to try something else. Remember that wrestling is still not looked at well by many TV execs and if given the chance, they will do a new approach. For USA, WWE Raw works in its current form. Sure they aren't pulling numbers like Walking Dead and Monday Night Football but they raise the overall weekly numbers to make USA very competitive. If TNA was still valuable to Spike, they would still be there. USA doesn't have that many hitmakers on the network like they used to and Raw is still a strong anchor show.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Dec 26, 2014 14:04:30 GMT -5
Meanwhile, the TNA locker room is just happy that some other locker room is being reported to have morale problems.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2014 14:09:23 GMT -5
Yeah, but you can't have that mindset or eventually USA, like any network, will see slumping ratings for a show (even if it is still better than their other shows) and get the idea to try something else. Remember that wrestling is still not looked at well by many TV execs and if given the chance, they will do a new approach. For USA, WWE Raw works in its current form. Sure they aren't pulling numbers like Walking Dead and Monday Night Football but they raise the overall weekly numbers to make USA very competitive. If TNA was still valuable to Spike, they would still be there. USA doesn't have that many hitmakers on the network like they used to and Raw is still a strong anchor show. True, but USA's already made it perfectly clear that they don't see Raw as an absolutely essential part of their programming or anything, given how when Vince was throwing around wanting to double or triple the TV rights fees and shopping it around to other networks they didn't blink.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Dec 26, 2014 14:21:15 GMT -5
For USA, WWE Raw works in its current form. Sure they aren't pulling numbers like Walking Dead and Monday Night Football but they raise the overall weekly numbers to make USA very competitive. If TNA was still valuable to Spike, they would still be there. USA doesn't have that many hitmakers on the network like they used to and Raw is still a strong anchor show. True, but USA's already made it perfectly clear that they don't see Raw as an absolutely essential part of their programming or anything, given how when Vince was throwing around wanting to double or triple the TV rights fees and shopping it around to other networks they didn't blink. Think of it like buying a car. If you can get it for the sticker price or cheaper, why pay above market value? Make no mistake, Raw is still valuable. Not double or triple worth valuable.
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Boo!
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Post by Boo! on Dec 26, 2014 14:38:28 GMT -5
Nearly if not all of the great gimmicks and stars of the past have become that way through the determination and ingenuity of the performer who could take an idea and run with it, working with the promoter to find which way is best for the character development.
Today it's "I suck and it's their fault because they tell me what to do". If your attitude is that you'll say what they want you to say, stand where you're told to stand and go out there and follow line by line, step by step, move by move what they tell you do - you're going to suck.
Vince can't be the office and the superstar. He can't suggest an idea, disagree with himself, rebut his own disagreement and then come up with a solution to satisfy both him and himself (and Irene too, if she's there). That part requires some superstars to grow a pair.
It's quite a feeble excuse that these guys have to be whipping-boy, yes-men because Vince is so big and scary and evil. Many of these superstars ahve more financial security already than any of us are ever likely to achieve. The reason why they don't take more of an active part in their own careers and development does not reflect well on them, all the 'big evil Vince' excuses in the world won't change that.
Sometimes the office will be wrong, sometimes you won't win the argument with them but it seems nobody today is willing to try. It's such a "yeah, whatever" attitude. There's no way someone like Ziggler should ever lose as IC champ on TV. Countless IC champs of the past would have refused. Either Vince would placate them or stripped them of title underhandedly - it's a risk but it's better than treading water
These are grown men with well-paid jobs. 'Can't stand up to the boss' is more than a little pathetic.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Dec 26, 2014 14:44:09 GMT -5
Nearly if not all of the great gimmicks and stars of the past have become that way through the determination and ingenuity of the performer who could take an idea and run with it, working with the promoter to find which way is best for the character development. Today it's "I suck and it's their fault because they tell me what to do". If your attitude is that you'll say what they want you to say, stand where you're told to stand and go out there and follow line by line, step by step, move by move what they tell you do - you're going to suck. Vince can't be the office and the superstar. He can't suggest an idea, disagree with himself, rebut his own disagreement and then come up with a solution to satisfy both him and himself (and Irene too, if she's there). That part requires some superstars to grow a pair. It's quite a feeble excuse that these guys have to be whipping-boy, yes-men because Vince is so big and scary and evil. Many of these superstars ahve more financial security already than any of us are ever likely to achieve. The reason why they don't take more of an active part in their own careers and development does not reflect well on them, all the 'big evil Vince' excuses in the world won't change that. Big Evil Vince controls these guys' livelihood. Financial security or not, the point is that WWE is the only wrestling promotion where one can make a full time living working for them and them alone. What if they have a falling out with Vince and they basically get blackballed from the industry because indy promoters are too scared to book them out of the fear that their boys won't get a tryout with WWE if they book this guy that Vince hates?
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Post by Seth Drakin of Monster Crap on Dec 26, 2014 14:56:03 GMT -5
Yeah, but you can't have that mindset or eventually USA, like any network, will see slumping ratings for a show (even if it is still better than their other shows) and get the idea to try something else. Remember that wrestling is still not looked at well by many TV execs and if given the chance, they will do a new approach. For USA, WWE Raw works in its current form. Sure they aren't pulling numbers like Walking Dead and Monday Night Football but they raise the overall weekly numbers to make USA very competitive. If TNA was still valuable to Spike, they would still be there. USA doesn't have that many hitmakers on the network like they used to and Raw is still a strong anchor show. All it takes is one exec like Jamie Kellner. Oh sure WWE Raw is fine for now, but if the numbers continue to fall like they have been....it eventually won't. Think about this, WWE didn't even come close to the new TV deal they wanted. That should tell you how much USA as well as other networks think of them.
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