|
Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Dec 26, 2014 14:56:49 GMT -5
Nearly if not all of the great gimmicks and stars of the past have become that way through the determination and ingenuity of the performer who could take an idea and run with it, working with the promoter to find which way is best for the character development. Today it's "I suck and it's their fault because they tell me what to do". If your attitude is that you'll say what they want you to say, stand where you're told to stand and go out there and follow line by line, step by step, move by move what they tell you do - you're going to suck. Vince can't be the office and the superstar. He can't suggest an idea, disagree with himself, rebut his own disagreement and then come up with a solution to satisfy both him and himself (and Irene too, if she's there). That part requires some superstars to grow a pair. It's quite a feeble excuse that these guys have to be whipping-boy, yes-men because Vince is so big and scary and evil. Many of these superstars ahve more financial security already than any of us are ever likely to achieve. The reason why they don't take more of an active part in their own careers and development does not reflect well on them, all the 'big evil Vince' excuses in the world won't change that. The issue is, the office isn't carrying their share of the load. Outside of a handful of guys, 80% of the roster has no direction. They just dick around in the same matches with the same people doing the same obnoxious act and are somehow supposed to get over. It's one thing to ask your wrestlers to take initiative but give them something to work with first. As for the financial aspect. First of all, if reports are to believed, most guys aren't as "financially secure" as you believe. Certainly not to the point where they could just up and retire now. Guys are scared to speak up because they don't want to get canned. In America, WWE is the only game in town that's on a major stage. It's not like the 90's where you could go to WCW if you hated your creative direction. You have to eat the shit because there is no where for you to go but down from here. Cesaro, Kofi Kingston, John Morrison, Big E, Ryback. The list just goes on and on of guys who actually did get over and looked to be on their way to be something special only to have their legs cut out from under them and have their push stopped dead for no real rhyme or reason. THAT's on creative. It doesn't matter how great you are if creative decides they don't want you to be a star and stops featuring you heavily. I agree to an extent with your point, guys need to nut up and stand up for themselves more. At the same time, however, let's not sit here and pretend like all of these guys are being given an equal opportunity. It's hard to grab the brass ring when creative is holding your legs down and making sure you can't jump.
|
|
|
Post by ________ has left the building on Dec 26, 2014 15:08:06 GMT -5
For USA, WWE Raw works in its current form. Sure they aren't pulling numbers like Walking Dead and Monday Night Football but they raise the overall weekly numbers to make USA very competitive. If TNA was still valuable to Spike, they would still be there. USA doesn't have that many hitmakers on the network like they used to and Raw is still a strong anchor show. All it takes is one exec like Jamie Kellner. Oh sure WWE Raw is fine for now, but if the numbers continue to fall like they have been....it eventually won't. If WCW wasn't draining Time Warner millions of millions of dollars and bringing down the profits of said super company, WCW would still been around. Jamie Kellner cancelling WCW programming happened during a time when cable networks were under 50 including the premium ones and you could get away with that. Today, you got different masters to serve. WWE isn't on Universal's books outside of programming fees. People don't realize that Nielsen has changed how they come up with their numbers from the Monday Night Wars and what a network averages weekly. Those numbers plus the demographics they bring in are important. Also, none of the sheets are adding in the DVR numbers to shows overall totals. Because Nielsen does. Just a couple days later after the initial number.
|
|
Johnny Flamingo
Hank Scorpio
Killing the business one post at a time
Posts: 6,475
|
Post by Johnny Flamingo on Dec 26, 2014 17:25:20 GMT -5
I still find it laughable that people are trying to claim that Vince was trying to "rally the troops" with his whole brass ring stuff on Austin's podcast. If he gathered everyone together and gave them that speech (or a better version of it at least) then maybe I'd buy it, but this was just Dixie Carter levels of stupid like when she did that big speech when Hogan came in and put it on TV. Seems to me that Vince was just talking about his frustrations with how he percieves the majority of his independent contractors. I also find it interesting that the big 4 names that he mentioned as showing "initiative" were basically all relatively new hires, compared to everyone else he glossed over. He's like a kid who is more interested in his shiny new toys and doesn't care about the ones he's already played with. Rollins, Ambrose, and Reigns aren't doing anything extraordinary to "grab the brass ring" they're just being given a lot better positioning by management. Not to say they're not talented, because they are. Just think about how many times Reigns has basically done terrible promos and they STILL give him the mic. Anyone not on "Vince's most favored toys" list would have been forgotten about by now. To me it seems just that way because Vince likes to do everything publicly. Hell, he apologized to CM Punk publicly, could have just called him man to man. Vince loves attention and getting people talking. To be fair, The Shield were tearing down the house with great matches for a long while before their split. I would definitely argue that they grabbed the brass ring. As far as Reigns, he got injured just as his push was starting, there is still a chance he will either a) improve and "grab the ring" or b)fail and become a mid carder/beast to be fed to the top guys. I do believe WWE has missed the boat on people and I blame creative for most of that. Still, I think Vince is arrogant enough that he would do something like that publicly. I think Vince also likes to poke people to see how they react. (such as making Jericho apologize to Chyna despite doing nothing wrong)
|
|
|
Post by Seth Drakin of Monster Crap on Dec 26, 2014 17:26:33 GMT -5
All it takes is one exec like Jamie Kellner. Oh sure WWE Raw is fine for now, but if the numbers continue to fall like they have been....it eventually won't. If WCW wasn't draining Time Warner millions of millions of dollars and bringing down the profits of said super company, WCW would still been around. Jamie Kellner cancelling WCW programming happened during a time when cable networks were under 50 including the premium ones and you could get away with that. Today, you got different masters to serve. WWE isn't on Universal's books outside of programming fees. People don't realize that Nielsen has changed how they come up with their numbers from the Monday Night Wars and what a network averages weekly. Those numbers plus the demographics they bring in are important. Also, none of the sheets are adding in the DVR numbers to shows overall totals. Because Nielsen does. Just a couple days later after the initial number. I'm still saying there could be still an exec who doesn't understand how wrestling works and just says we are going in a different direction with our programming (Just like the CW did with Smackdown). Like I said, WWE didn't get the TV deal they wanted for a reason. They need NBC Universal right now just as much as NBC Universal needs them, unless they want to put everything on the WWE Network, but then again....with the way that Network has been, I wouldn't take that gamble.
|
|
|
Post by Seth Drakin of Monster Crap on Dec 26, 2014 17:28:12 GMT -5
I still find it laughable that people are trying to claim that Vince was trying to "rally the troops" with his whole brass ring stuff on Austin's podcast. If he gathered everyone together and gave them that speech (or a better version of it at least) then maybe I'd buy it, but this was just Dixie Carter levels of stupid like when she did that big speech when Hogan came in and put it on TV. Seems to me that Vince was just talking about his frustrations with how he percieves the majority of his independent contractors. I also find it interesting that the big 4 names that he mentioned as showing "initiative" were basically all relatively new hires, compared to everyone else he glossed over. He's like a kid who is more interested in his shiny new toys and doesn't care about the ones he's already played with. Rollins, Ambrose, and Reigns aren't doing anything extraordinary to "grab the brass ring" they're just being given a lot better positioning by management. Not to say they're not talented, because they are. Just think about how many times Reigns has basically done terrible promos and they STILL give him the mic. Anyone not on "Vince's most favored toys" list would have been forgotten about by now. To me it seems just that way because Vince likes to do everything publicly. Hell, he apologized to CM Punk publicly, could have just called him man to man. Vince loves attention and getting people talking. To be fair, The Shield were tearing down the house with great matches for a long while before their split. I would definitely argue that they grabbed the brass ring. As far as Reigns, he got injured just as his push was starting, there is still a chance he will either a) improve and "grab the ring" or b)fail and become a mid carder/beast to be fed to the top guys. I do believe WWE has missed the boat on people and I blame creative for most of that. Still, I think Vince is arrogant enough that he would do something like that publicly. I think Vince also likes to poke people to see how they react. (such as making Jericho apologize to Chyna despite doing nothing wrong) Too bad Vince didn't apologize for that whole MRSA crap.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2014 18:10:27 GMT -5
I really do get the thought that the wrestlers need to be more stubborn and fight the power. But these days, the power is exponentially bigger. There's more layers within the company, and most importantly it's the only company. The stakes got a lot higher, and it takes more effort, and until recently the US economy has been awful, so the percentage of people who are willing to be jerks and risk their jobs for a better spot is inverse to that.
And again, the amount of leeway and creative freedom has gone way down. There's a lot less opportunity to express yourself. Pro wrestling used to be like jazz, now it's like Neoclasical metal.
|
|
|
Post by lockedontarget on Dec 26, 2014 20:57:21 GMT -5
Quite frankly if the situation is that you need to be an asshole to get treated properly, then the situation should change.
The entire carny mentality people like Vince carry with them needs to go away. Someone like Caesars should be able to trust the people booking him to be willing and ready to use him properly. Asking the wrestlers to basically be dicks if they want to not be buried is archaic and stupid and should be left behind in the past.
|
|
nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
O Superman....O judge....O Mom and Dad....
Posts: 5,718
|
Post by nisidhe on Dec 26, 2014 22:11:49 GMT -5
Honestly, I think Vince has the roster he's worked for and deserves - such as it may be. He's succeeded in gaining full control over the trajectories of his talent's careers. He has at his disposal an entire Performance Center where he can make his own sports-entertainment talent without the "taint" of a prior wrestling career, and can guide them from their first lessons to their Hall of Fame inductions. And, he's made sure that that they'll never succeed outside his sphere.
Will his talent give Vince 100% at all times? No. There'll be a few who will. A lot of his choice talent will, like Brock Lesnar, be in it only for the money and do the bare minimum to keep themselves from being fired. The pay is nowhere near what it would have been fifteen years ago and, as some independent wrestlers have found, does not justify the hectic tour schedule (which can take up to 50% of your pay - WWE rarely covers your travel expenses) or the hobbles on their creative direction. Those independent wrestlers aren't necessarily going to give their all, either, simply because they're in WWE. A petty and arbitrary head who plays favourites, while berating others for not reaching for the brass ring, while simultaneously cutting legs out from under the midcard, will ultimately find himself surrounded by people afraid to stand out. Those people will draw the paychecks and work the shows, but the days of technicians demonstrating their craft in a 20-minute Broadway are over - and the fans these days know it.
Vince has everything just the way he wants it from a roster standpoint, and it's going to destroy WWE.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2014 22:17:10 GMT -5
Not to be a grammar cop, but trepidatious means to be anxious and fearful, apprehensive to the point of shaking. Vince didn't mean that, I'm sure, as he probably just didn't know the definition or at least used it incorrectly, but there's a Freudian slip in there somewhere.
|
|
|
Post by chuck the duke on Dec 26, 2014 23:33:46 GMT -5
Not to be a grammar cop, but trepidatious means to be anxious and fearful, apprehensive to the point of shaking. Vince didn't mean that, I'm sure, as he probably just didn't know the definition or at least used it incorrectly, but there's a Freudian slip in there somewhere. That's not necessarily incorrect usage. Vince could be saying "they're not nervous about the consequences of reaching for the top, I just think that they just don't care and are content to stay where they are."
|
|
|
Post by Mayonnaise on Dec 26, 2014 23:41:45 GMT -5
At least Cesaro has a sense of humor about it.
|
|