Abdullah
Hank Scorpio
Thank you, Ishmeal Loves Bayley!
Posts: 6,420
|
Post by Abdullah on Dec 30, 2014 12:46:46 GMT -5
This thought popped into my mind after seeing some of the comments about Cesaro.
"Well, he's done."
"Maybe Vince was right."
"He doesn't have it."
Let me start by saying that from a financial POV, from the aspect of wanting fame, most wrestlers would take a main-event or a superpush push if they were offered it. For a low-card guy, this would mean a sudden and seemingly overbearing focus out of nowhere. If Primo was told today that he was being offered a top spot, I think he'd take it but would also worry about messing up and that the fans wouldn't buy it. If Cesaro were offered a spot as a top heel, I think he'd question it as well.
I say this because there seems to be an implicit assumption by fans that the only push that matters is an ostentatious, relentless one. But that's not the case.
If we take the Ziggler example, his push probably began gradually around Summerslam. Back then, he was cracking bad jokes and even his fans were pretty resigned to the fact that this, being a mid-card champ, was a nice ceiling for him. Why are people, even some who are apathetic to him normally, citing him as a possible Rumble winner? He's been booked well. He's been booked with consistency for six months and now he's seen as the future rather than a guy who might be replaced by a shiny, new indy signing. His push wasn't always so noticeable but it took hold and now, unless WWE actively tries to ruin it, they have a star.
If we take The Shield's example, then yes, they were introduced with instant importance and were always talked up on commentary. But there were also many times when they didn't do much except wrestle in six-man tags as well as putting over Bryan and struggling with the Usos. Hell, their Wrestlemania moments were hardly elaborate or epic but they were constantly presented as big deals. Even when they were working a pre-show and Ambrose was a body to facilitate Cody's face turn.
On some level, wrestlers probably don't want Roman's burden of a superpush. I do suspect they'd like a consistent, coherent push that allows them the chance to sink or swim based on their own merits.
Speaking as a fan of Cesaro, I don't want him to get a big push right now. What I'd like is for the commentary to not undercut him; what I want for him and anyone with value is to be given a proportionate, fair spotlight that allows them to grow or fall based on their own doing. Not because they don't fit into Vince's narrow view of a star.
Not everyone is going to be the top guy. But that doesn't mean stopping them before they get there or writing them off hastily.
|
|
|
|
Post by mrtuesday on Dec 30, 2014 12:48:47 GMT -5
If you're not there to be the top guy, why are you even there?
|
|
|
|
Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Dec 30, 2014 12:51:35 GMT -5
If you're not there to be the top guy, why are you even there? Not that this deserves a non-smartass answer, but: To wrestle. |
|
Abdullah
Hank Scorpio
Thank you, Ishmeal Loves Bayley!
Posts: 6,420
|
Post by Abdullah on Dec 30, 2014 12:56:08 GMT -5
If you're not there to be the top guy, why are you even there? ...That's really not the point of my post. Even if you just read the last line, it's pretty clear. My point is, Cesaro or anyone doesn't need a main-event push to get to the main event. Which is what his critics don't seem to realize. Like Ziggler, he could take what stars as a mid-card push and continue with good performances. But he has to be allowed the chance. I'm using Cesaro as an example but it applies to anyone. |
|
|
|
Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Dec 30, 2014 12:56:17 GMT -5
If you're not there to be the top guy, why are you even there? Everyone doesn't get to be a top guy, even when there were two World Titles being passed around like candy. |
|
Push R Truth
Patti Mayonnaise
Unique and Special Snowflake, and a pants-less heathen.
Perpetually Constipated
Posts: 39,277
|
Post by Push R Truth on Dec 30, 2014 13:32:13 GMT -5
If you're not there to be the top guy, why are you even there? To get paid doing what you like to do? |
|
|
|
Post by Slanted and Enchanted on Dec 30, 2014 13:38:44 GMT -5
If you're not there to be the top guy, why are you even there? Do I want to become the CEO of my company one day and command all the power, authority, respect, and not to mention a hefty paycheck? Hell yeah I do. But the odds of that happening are minimal. I'm not ecstatic about being a low midcarder at the office but I'm happy to make enough money for rent, food on the table, and being able to have fun on weekends. Your post sounds like a famous line from Steve Austin but I think you took his words from the character he portrayed a little too literally. I'm sure everyone in the locker room would like to have the title around their waist one day but until then they're happy getting paid to do what they love. I'm sure a guy like Dan Marino wishes he won the Superbowl but I'm sure he's still pretty happy with millions of dollars and the admiration of football fans everywhere. |
|
Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847 
|
Post by Reflecto on Dec 30, 2014 13:38:45 GMT -5
If you're not there to be the top guy, why are you even there? ...That's really not the point of my post. Even if you just read the last line, it's pretty clear. My point is, Cesaro or anyone doesn't need a main-event push to get to the main event. Which is what his critics don't seem to realize. Like Ziggler, he could take what stars as a mid-card push and continue with good performances. But he has to be allowed the chance. I'm using Cesaro as an example but it applies to anyone. This- a super-push won't make anyone a mega-star anymore, and it may actually prove to hinder people who had it. It's much better to be booked logically, in a midcard or lower angle, and not treated like they're worthless- and then it naturally builds from there. Cesaro is the example there: Last year, Cesaro was half of a pretty good tag team in the Real Americans, had an over move, and that pushed him to flirt with the main event just by booking them really well and not treating them like jokes. Then when it worked, they gave him the "big push" with Heyman, and it totally derailed him to the point he ended up worse off than he was in the Real Americans. Same goes in other examples: Ziggler was a midcarder for years, but he was mostly trading wins and losses with Kofi Kingston that didn't mean much of anything. He gets some actual booking besides 50/50 nice matches...now he's a star. Damien Sandow got the big push and the MITB briefcase to make him a future World Champion and it failed- and now, he's a breakout star because he pretends to be The Miz and acts as a stunt double...but the booking is making him look credible, so he is credible. Main-event pushes won't come from where you are on the card, but how logically you're booked and moving from there. |
|
trollrogue
Hank Scorpio
Nashville City of Music!!
Posts: 5,603
|
Post by trollrogue on Dec 30, 2014 16:05:48 GMT -5
If you're not there to be the top guy, why are you even there? I want to be a WWE Ref one day. Like Li'l Naitch one day I hope to count the pin for the top guy, otherwise why bother putting on the zebra shirts or getting randomly choked out by Daniel Bryan with neckties?? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2014 17:53:23 GMT -5
I think the issue is WWE keeps positioning these guys as if they're going to be major players, then unceremoniously pulling the carpet out from under them.
They've got a handful of wrestlers who could be in the main event scene, keeping things fresh, possibly bringing in new viewers and instead they keep falling back on the safe bets.
There's something to be said for a nice, slow, gradual build, but for WWE they haven't done that in ages. They fell in love with building a guy up big time, then booking him like garbage because....? I honestly don't know why. Then the guy flounders and WWE loses interest in pushing him.
|
|
|
|
Post by tigermaskxxxvii on Dec 30, 2014 18:16:02 GMT -5
This is what pissed me off about the New Blood vs Millionaires Club storyline. I was all for those young guys getting pushed, but it just seemed a little too sudden after the way they were promoted before. To go from zero to sixty made their pushes looked so forced when a gradual climb up the ranks (which should have began around 1998) would look a whole lot more organic.
Sting didn't beat Flair for the title right out the gate. He had the 45 minute draw at the first Clash, then he beat him in a non-title match in the Iron Man tournament at Starrcade, and finally won the title at the 1990 Great American Bash. Seems a whole lot better than going from TV Champion straight to World Champion.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2014 18:36:55 GMT -5
If you're not there to be the top guy, why are you even there? Do I want to become the CEO of my company one day and command all the power, authority, respect, and not to mention a hefty paycheck? Hell yeah I do. But the odds of that happening are minimal. I'm not ecstatic about being a low midcarder at the office but I'm happy to make enough money for rent, food on the table, and being able to have fun on weekends. Your post sounds like a famous line from Steve Austin but I think you took his words from the character he portrayed a little too literally. I'm sure everyone in the locker room would like to have the title around their waist one day but until then they're happy getting paid to do what they love. I'm sure a guy like Dan Marino wishes he won the Superbowl but I'm sure he's still pretty happy with millions of dollars and the admiration of football fans everywhere. It's Marino's own fault he never won a Super Bowl. He should have put the ball laces out for Ray Finkle. |
|
nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
O Superman....O judge....O Mom and Dad....
Posts: 5,718 
|
Post by nisidhe on Dec 30, 2014 19:00:28 GMT -5
The problem, as I see it, is a drug problem. The McMahons have a serious drug problem.
See, they got a major high back in the days of Hogan - packing in the houses, spiking merch sales, basically making gobs and gobs of money. They rode that high for a while, but eventually it grew stalish, so they tried stirring things up a bit, but the high wasn't as intense and the stars they'd chosen to replace Hogan, though talented and charismatic and disciplined, weren't the once-in-a-lifetime dose they had gotten with Hogan. Savage, Warrior, Hart, Michaels - all of them kept WWE going, even floating for a while, but that intense high wasn't there. Then - a double dose! Austin and The Rock! Wow! The Attitude Era brought the numbers and the energy back and things were very good for a few years, then turned and slid downward slowly, as WWE kept searching for its next Big Thing but never quite getting that high back - meanwhile the bodies started piling up and people outside it started talking about WWE as being responsible for the deaths and for a culture in which young men destroy themselves in the vain hope that Vince would think them good enough to be his next dose of that high and, more importantly, that they'd be strong enough to take him back to that high he'd gotten with Hogan. Of course, as many addicts might tell you, that first high will never return.
|
|
Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
|
Post by Reflecto on Dec 30, 2014 19:05:48 GMT -5
I think the issue is WWE keeps positioning these guys as if they're going to be major players, then unceremoniously pulling the carpet out from under them. They've got a handful of wrestlers who could be in the main event scene, keeping things fresh, possibly bringing in new viewers and instead they keep falling back on the safe bets. There's something to be said for a nice, slow, gradual build, but for WWE they haven't done that in ages. They fell in love with building a guy up big time, then booking him like garbage because....? I honestly don't know why. Then the guy flounders and WWE loses interest in pushing him. That's the problem- WWE is running scared of top names leaving them- whether for UFC, Hollywood, or TNA/New Japan/the indies. Right now, the WWE has gotten to the point where they'd rather have someone who's barely a pro wrestling main eventer- but who has nowhere else to go and who NEED the WWE more than the WWE NEEDS them, then have someone become a big star for WWE to the point they won't NEED WWE anymore to make a name for themselves. This is the more depressing thing- and it comes across when WWE keeps trying to make Sheamus a thing- it's not WWE trying to make a failed main eventer a thing, but rather Sheamus- a guy who's barely an upper midcarder by how badly he was booked- being perfect for them because they want upper midcarders now: People who CAN be a World Champion, but who don't have that main event "they're over enough so they don't NEED WWE anymore" thing. Same with people like The Miz (who can be in WWE Films, but is still "only" a midcarder and wouldn't sniff those movie roles if he wasn't a WWE Superstar) or, yes, Dolph Ziggler (who's pretty much plateaued in that level, even with that push). We thought that they wanted a new Austin/Rock/Hogan...but now, it's become clear- they truly want a roster of Bret/Shawn/Diesel types and are striving for '1995- but we don't go bankrupt'. |
|
|
|
Post by xCompackx on Dec 30, 2014 23:27:58 GMT -5
Guys have been called lazy for not actively trying to get pushes, but I completely understand why guys/girls get that way. It's one thing to be making money and entertaining fans, but having even an upper-midcard push must be a enormous strain on your professional/private life. Between all the politicking/backstabbing, constant media appearances, and fear of it all being taken away because of bullshit, I can't imagine too many people being up for that. I get that it comes with the job and all, but it's still a pretty terrible working environment.
|
|
