wcc2
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Post by wcc2 on Jan 3, 2015 21:34:10 GMT -5
No man, I made a specific point that this wasn't my argument. The point I was arguing against wasn't that fans are saying 'boo! we don't like this guy!' and reacting to the character and the presentation, either positively or negatively. But actually saying, yeah we like him, but we don't think he is ready, based on an objective assessment of his talent, so we are going to boo him. Fans are definitely qualified and entitled to state their opinions on the characters and the presentation of the guys on the roster, and the business wouldn't function without it, but they are in no way qualified to assess that talent from an objective standpoint, as much as the people in the company are. There is a difference there. Yes, we are qualified. Their work is what we like and decide how far we are willing to follow them. Take someone that people enjoy but don't see as good enough and they fail everytime. Early HBK suffered it, Diesel suffered it, Rock suffered it, Sheamus suffered it and countless others have as well. There is no need to rush someone into a major spot and potentially ruin them. We simply must be talking about different things here. They didn't like the presentation of the Rocky Maivia character, obviously. But are we seriously saying that if numerous people in the company deem any guy on the roster good enough AS A WORKER, in terms of safety, move set (relative to the type of performer they are) , psychology etc that the fans will actually know better? This is what I'm talking about. Not whether they actually want to see the character presented to them in that spot, but whether as a worker, he is good enough.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jan 3, 2015 21:34:37 GMT -5
What qualifications does one need? To assess the talent of a wrestler? Are you implying the layman's eye is qualification enough? Shall we tell Regal his talents are no longer needed scouting for the company any more, because we've got a few guys on the FAN that will do it for dirt cheap? If it's a fan consensus, yep. Individual fans; no probably not. But if en masse they're reacting to one guy or another, or not reacting to a guy to the level that they're being pushed, then yep. Again, the fan is the consumer. Who they want to cheer for is absolutely the final word.
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wcc2
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Posts: 159
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Post by wcc2 on Jan 3, 2015 21:35:42 GMT -5
Yes, we are qualified. Their work is what we like and decide how far we are willing to follow them. Take someone that people enjoy but don't see as good enough and they fail everytime. Early HBK suffered it, Diesel suffered it, Rock suffered it, Sheamus suffered it and countless others have as well. There is no need to rush someone into a major spot and potentially ruin them. I concur with everything Ric and Kev said They are talking about different things. Rocky Maivia was booed because of the presentation of his character, not because of his pure ability to work in a wrestling company. Neither was Sheamus or any of the others.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jan 3, 2015 21:37:30 GMT -5
I concur with everything Ric and Kev said They are talking about different things. Rocky Maivia was booed because of the presentation of his character, not because of his pure ability to work in a wrestling company. Neither was Sheamus or any of the others. Character is all important. Plenty of guys can physically wrestle a match. Whether or not people care about them is entirely down to character. If they don't connect, all their wrestling ability may count for little.
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wcc2
AC Slater
Posts: 159
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Post by wcc2 on Jan 3, 2015 21:39:30 GMT -5
To assess the talent of a wrestler? Are you implying the layman's eye is qualification enough? Shall we tell Regal his talents are no longer needed scouting for the company any more, because we've got a few guys on the FAN that will do it for dirt cheap? If it's a fan consensus, yep. Individual fans; no probably not. But if en masse they're reacting to one guy or another, or not reacting to a guy to the level that they're being pushed, then yep. Again, the fan is the consumer. Who they want to cheer for is absolutely the final word. Again, I think we're talking about different things. Or if we aren't, I think the idea is crazy. I completely understand cheering and booing based on the presentation of a character, and even the consistent match quality of the workers in question. What I'm talking about is the things that make Vince, Regal, HHH or anyone from a backstage, objective point of view, deem someone capable of working a main event match, or having a certain amount of TV time. They've deemed it so, because the know what they are talking about. But we have people saying here, they like Reigns, they can see he's talented, but they don't believe his mic skills are up to par, so they are going to boo him. Or his moveset is not wide enough, so they are going to boo him. There's a difference between reacting to the presentation of the character, and reacting to the talent of the worker, which is something scouts and road agents will be 99999999x more qualified to assess than fans.
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Post by Stu on Jan 3, 2015 21:39:49 GMT -5
Hypothetical scenario. Bryan is back and let's say the Authority doesn't pull him from the Rumble. Between now and the end of January, there's no indication he's out of the Rumble. Any time Reigns gives a promo about winning the Rumble, people give him a lukewarm reaction. This is on Raw and Smack down every week until the Rumble. What would you say to that? Are you asking do I have Bryan win or do I simply not have Reigns win? I mean my personal preference for Mania is still Godzilla vs King Kong with Lesnar instead of "Unlikeliest of underdogs beats God" so there'd still be some bias in there for the match I'd prefer to see. If Reigns doesn't win, I'd still prefer someone like Ziggler over Bryan given the fact that Bryan's recent injuries add a little too much doubt to suspend my disbelief that he'd have any chance in hell of beating Lesnar "if this was real" I was asking if you would take that as an indicator that fans would rather see Bryan win instead of Reigns.
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wcc2
AC Slater
Posts: 159
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Post by wcc2 on Jan 3, 2015 21:39:46 GMT -5
They are talking about different things. Rocky Maivia was booed because of the presentation of his character, not because of his pure ability to work in a wrestling company. Neither was Sheamus or any of the others. Character is all important. Plenty of guys can physically wrestle a match. Whether or not people care about them is entirely down to character. If they don't connect, all their wrestling ability may count for little. And this is not what I'm talking about at all.
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Post by Error on Jan 3, 2015 21:42:50 GMT -5
Yes, we are qualified. Their work is what we like and decide how far we are willing to follow them. Take someone that people enjoy but don't see as good enough and they fail everytime. Early HBK suffered it, Diesel suffered it, Rock suffered it, Sheamus suffered it and countless others have as well. There is no need to rush someone into a major spot and potentially ruin them. We simply must be talking about different things here. They didn't like the presentation of the Rocky Maivia character, obviously. But are we seriously saying that if numerous people in the company deem any guy on the roster good enough AS A WORKER, in terms of safety, move set (relative to the type of performer they are) , psychology etc that the fans will actually know better? This is what I'm talking about. Not whether they actually want to see the character presented to them in that spot, but whether as a worker, he is good enough. Yes, the fans can easily say what someone in the ring does isn't good enough for the level WWE wants you and reject them. Great Khali sucked, got pushed as a threat and people rejected him. Koslov was pushed as a major threat and given multiple main event matches as well as put over Undertaker clean a sheet and was rejected because he bored them despite that and got dropped to teaming with Santino. None of that was character, it was talent level to pushed position and people saying f*** this. Every company has this happen, not just WWE. There are people who are talented enough for WWE that would never make it in ROH with the fans, guys in ROH that would never make it in Japan, guys in Japan that would never make it America because the fans set the standard, not the bookers.
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wcc2
AC Slater
Posts: 159
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Post by wcc2 on Jan 3, 2015 21:43:22 GMT -5
Like what? Noise levels? Pupil responses of the audience? Atmospheric pressure? What? Often yes, when you consider that the company is run by an old man who doesn't even regard his wrestling company as being a wrestling company. I don't deny Cena has proven himself as a star. Those aren't mysterious other metrics. They are all verifiable business stats. The movie WWE barely even mentioned, if at all, on their programming. Again, Cena isn't the issue. They went with it, kicking and screaming. It was obvious for ages that Bryan wasn't a niche. Their product had to be hijacked before they realised the obvious. No, no, it's fine. I'm going to try and bow out here. This always happens in internet debates, where you encounter people that get such an over inflated sense of their own knowledge of what they are commenting on that is supposedly surpasses any knowledge, metrics, or a level of understanding about a business than a fan couldn't possibly have. This is why HHH cuts these sort of troll promos he's been doing this year. It's frankly obvious that they will have ways of assessing the potential and current performance of their talent that we won't have access to. So, so obvious. And just on your 'Cena isn't the issue' point...I know...he wasn't even the main thrust of my point there, at all.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Jan 3, 2015 21:44:04 GMT -5
Look, I'm gonna need to see some Observer subscriptions to prove that people in this thread are really qualified.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jan 3, 2015 21:44:26 GMT -5
Character is all important. Plenty of guys can physically wrestle a match. Whether or not people care about them is entirely down to character. If they don't connect, all their wrestling ability may count for little. And this is not what I'm talking about at all. Seems to be. As you mentioned here... We simply must be talking about different things here. They didn't like the presentation of the Rocky Maivia character, obviously. But are we seriously saying that if numerous people in the company deem any guy on the roster good enough AS A WORKER, in terms of safety, move set (relative to the type of performer they are) , psychology etc that the fans will actually know better? This is what I'm talking about.
Not whether they actually want to see the character presented to them in that spot, but whether as a worker, he is good enough. I've already stated, you can be a capable worker, a safe wrestler, with a large moveset. It means nothing if your character doesn't connect. Ring psychology is part of character. Knowing what to do, when to do it, and how to convey it within the context of one's persona.
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Jan 3, 2015 21:44:40 GMT -5
Are you asking do I have Bryan win or do I simply not have Reigns win? I mean my personal preference for Mania is still Godzilla vs King Kong with Lesnar instead of "Unlikeliest of underdogs beats God" so there'd still be some bias in there for the match I'd prefer to see. If Reigns doesn't win, I'd still prefer someone like Ziggler over Bryan given the fact that Bryan's recent injuries add a little too much doubt to suspend my disbelief that he'd have any chance in hell of beating Lesnar "if this was real" I was asking if you would take that as an indicator that fans would rather see Bryan win instead of Reigns. Oh I have no doubt there's a big portion of the fanbase that would prefer seeing Bryan win. On the other hand, I also think there's something to the idea of "Who's going to benefit more from beating Lesnar in the long run?" For example, WWE felt that it was more important that Punk go into his match with The Rock as having well over a year long title reign than having Ryback keep his momentum. Well they had Ryback lose and it essentially took him 2 years to ever back to even being CLOSE to what he was and even then he's still not there yet. I do fear that Reigns was being groomed for this big moment and got all this other big moments and that if WWE waits too long with him, they'll risk the big moments they gave him at the Rumble, Survivor Series, etc in the past becoming meaningless and having to do that all over again.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jan 3, 2015 21:46:46 GMT -5
I've asked you to define what these metrics are, but you've not provided any answers.
Yep, the guy who thought that screwing a mannequin in a coffin would be an awesome storyline.
Again, I ask, what ways?
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wcc2
AC Slater
Posts: 159
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Post by wcc2 on Jan 3, 2015 21:49:14 GMT -5
We simply must be talking about different things here. They didn't like the presentation of the Rocky Maivia character, obviously. But are we seriously saying that if numerous people in the company deem any guy on the roster good enough AS A WORKER, in terms of safety, move set (relative to the type of performer they are) , psychology etc that the fans will actually know better? This is what I'm talking about. Not whether they actually want to see the character presented to them in that spot, but whether as a worker, he is good enough. Yes, the fans can easily say what someone in the ring does isn't good enough for the level WWE wants you and reject them. Great Khali sucked, got pushed as a threat and people rejected him. Koslov was pushed as a major threat and given multiple main event matches as well as put over Undertaker clean a sheet and was rejected because he bored them despite that and got dropped to teaming with Santino. None of that was character, it was talent level to pushed position and people saying f*** this. Every company has this happen, not just WWE. There are people who are talented enough for WWE that would never make it in ROH with the fans, guys in ROH that would never make it in Japan, guys in Japan that would never make it America because the fans set the standard, not the bookers. I think we can probably fire Bill Demott along with Regal actually, because clearly we have loads of people on here that can judge whether or not each guy is ready for their first match on NXT. Saying Khali sucked is completely subjective. As it saying Kozlov wasn't about character. I would completely say his lack of a main event run was because he didn't have enough about him overall to connect as a heel. He was bland as a character. Again, for hopefully the last time, I'm arguing against people saying they like Reigns, but will be willing to boo him to show that in their mind, he isn't 'ready' from a worker standpoint. Which is not a critique on his character, it's people assuming their subjective understanding of what talent actually is, is actually objective fact.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jan 3, 2015 21:50:09 GMT -5
I was asking if you would take that as an indicator that fans would rather see Bryan win instead of Reigns. Oh I have no doubt there's a big portion of the fanbase that would prefer seeing Bryan win. On the other hand, I also think there's something to the idea of "Who's going to benefit more from beating Lesnar in the long run?" For example, WWE felt that it was more important that Punk go into his match with The Rock as having well over a year long title reign than having Ryback keep his momentum. Well they had Ryback lose and it essentially took him 2 years to ever back to even being CLOSE to what he was and even then he's still not there yet. I do fear that Reigns was being groomed for this big moment and got all this other big moments and that if WWE waits too long with him, they'll risk the big moments they gave him at the Rumble, Survivor Series, etc in the past becoming meaningless and having to do that all over again. If they wait on Reigns, then he still has the Rumble Record, and Survivor Series stuff to keep him a credible threat. Ryback didn't have any of those moments.
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wcc2
AC Slater
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Post by wcc2 on Jan 3, 2015 21:51:19 GMT -5
And this is not what I'm talking about at all. Seems to be. As you mentioned here... We simply must be talking about different things here. They didn't like the presentation of the Rocky Maivia character, obviously. But are we seriously saying that if numerous people in the company deem any guy on the roster good enough AS A WORKER, in terms of safety, move set (relative to the type of performer they are) , psychology etc that the fans will actually know better? This is what I'm talking about.
Not whether they actually want to see the character presented to them in that spot, but whether as a worker, he is good enough. I've already stated, you can be a capable worker, a safe wrestler, with a large moveset. It means nothing if your character doesn't connect. Ring psychology is part of character. Knowing what to do, when to do it, and how to convey it within the context of one's persona. Ok, I'm really, really not talking about presentation of character, which is why Rocky Maivia was booed. I've said it a thousand times now. But do enlighten me. How can Roman Reigns improve his ring psychology, specifically?
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Jan 3, 2015 21:52:04 GMT -5
a little bit. prefer Bryan to main event by a wide margian, but he hasn't done anything to deserve the hate besides seemingly being next in line as "the guy." Hasn't had a chance to be Cena 2.0 yet.
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Post by gnr123 on Jan 3, 2015 21:53:25 GMT -5
Listen, Reigns is over. Yes, he has a look and yes, he has potential. But, he still hasn't had a midcard title feud, or a big win as a single wrestler besides Randy Orton. He has no personality, and his mic work is dismal. If he was to win the Rumble, your damn right he would get booed, and rightfully so. I'm a fan, but he's not ready and WWE going against what their paying customers want (again) would cause anther uproar. There's no ready to push him right now. I mean, unless Cena is really hurt and they need a new top guy, RIGHT NOW, than I see no real reason to push Reigns other than he's over and has a good look. Atleast Cena had multiple midcard feud with top talent and was US Champion for a while. Reigns is just the muscle from The Shield, that's still his gimmick.
If he wins the Rumble, people won't be booing out of spite, people will be booing Reigns because it obvious that Bryn's got more of the casual and internet fans on his side. If Bryan never came back, and Reigns won and faced/beat Lesnar, I'm pretty he would still get cheered. But, now Bryans back, WWE having someone other than him winning would just be as dumbfounded and ridiculously stupid as last year. Sure, Bryan has his moment last year, but Bryan/Lesnar should be too good of a match to pass up in WWE's eyes.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jan 3, 2015 21:54:05 GMT -5
Yes, the fans can easily say what someone in the ring does isn't good enough for the level WWE wants you and reject them. Great Khali sucked, got pushed as a threat and people rejected him. Koslov was pushed as a major threat and given multiple main event matches as well as put over Undertaker clean a sheet and was rejected because he bored them despite that and got dropped to teaming with Santino. None of that was character, it was talent level to pushed position and people saying f*** this. Every company has this happen, not just WWE. There are people who are talented enough for WWE that would never make it in ROH with the fans, guys in ROH that would never make it in Japan, guys in Japan that would never make it America because the fans set the standard, not the bookers. I think we can probably fire Bill Demott along with Regal actually, because clearly we have loads of people on here that can judge whether or not each guy is ready for their first match on NXT. Saying Khali sucked is completely subjective. As it saying Kozlov wasn't about character. I would completely say his lack of a main event run was because he didn't have enough about him overall to connect as a heel. He was bland as a character. Again, for hopefully the last time, I'm arguing against people saying they like Reigns, but will be willing to boo him to show that in their mind, he isn't 'ready' from a worker standpoint. Which is not a critique on his character, it's people assuming their subjective understanding of what talent actually is, is actually objective fact. Actually, WWE should fire Bill DeMott and give his spot as head trainer to William Regal. A lot of these "green football player" types would be a lot better off if Regal was the one handling their training. I'd love to see him get his hands on someone like Mojo Rawley, or even guys who have long left developmental like Titus O'Neil or Alex Riley and turn them into f***ing workrate machines. Even Reigns himself would be a better wrestler if he were trained by Regal instead of Bill F***in' DeMott.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jan 3, 2015 21:54:49 GMT -5
Seems to be. As you mentioned here... We simply must be talking about different things here. They didn't like the presentation of the Rocky Maivia character, obviously. But are we seriously saying that if numerous people in the company deem any guy on the roster good enough AS A WORKER, in terms of safety, move set (relative to the type of performer they are) , psychology etc that the fans will actually know better? This is what I'm talking about.
Not whether they actually want to see the character presented to them in that spot, but whether as a worker, he is good enough. I've already stated, you can be a capable worker, a safe wrestler, with a large moveset. It means nothing if your character doesn't connect. Ring psychology is part of character. Knowing what to do, when to do it, and how to convey it within the context of one's persona. Ok, I'm really, really not talking about presentation of character, which is why Rocky Maivia was booed. I've said it a thousand times now. But do enlighten me. How can Roman Reigns improve his ring psychology, specifically? Yes you've said it a thousand times. You were talking about ring ability and such. I've already stated, ring ability alone means little. As for Roman Reigns, the first thing he needs to do is work on his promos. He comes across as nervous, unsure and doesn't believe in what he's saying. Better promo material would help, but Reigns has also got to work on his delivery. Another thing that would help him are shorter matches. The longer the match, the more he has to sell, and the more exposed and human he looks. If he's supposed to be a Godzilla, he needs to sell less and be more like an unstoppable beast.
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