|
Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jan 4, 2015 12:30:27 GMT -5
Every single time someone likes a character on TV, it's because they liked how that character was presented on the TV show. Either the concept of the character (or 'gimmick') is intriguing or entertaining, or the performance by the actor draws viewers in. WWE is no different. If you like a character on RAW, it's because the WWE has presented that character in a way you like, due to booking choices, actor choices, or the inherent character concept (gimmick). So YES, not only can WWE make us like a superstar, they have made us like EVERY superstar. EDIT: The Exception to this is when a character stops being liked. While motivations, booking, and writing can play a part, often in WWE superstars are disliked by fans because of meta-viewers worrying about backstage politics, rumours of future plans, etc. Those aspects of the character were never presented in the TV show. Right now Roman Reigns' gimmick is "Someday he's going to get a major push by Vince and creative, and some people don't think he deserves it". But that aspect of the character isn't a part of the show, that's all generated by meta-viewers. That's not what I'm talking about though. A character being designed to get over and then getting over is not us being forced to like them. That is a character catching on well, but ALL characters are designed to catch on, and if wrestling promoters could actually force us to like somebody then Evad Sullivan, that handful of bogus Von Erichs, Verne Gagne's kid, all of these guys would be over like rover because promoters can force us to like someone, right? Writing a character well and booking a wrestler well, thusly making them popular is not forcing us to like them.
|
|
wildchair
Tommy Wiseau
A fan of the WWF/WWE since 1982
Posts: 77
|
Post by wildchair on Jan 4, 2015 14:10:51 GMT -5
Sure they can, see how well it worked with Batista?
|
|
|
Post by Red Impact on Jan 4, 2015 15:16:36 GMT -5
If they could, then the website that initially led to this forum being launched would never have existed.
|
|
|
Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jan 4, 2015 15:22:51 GMT -5
I'd say they can. When WWE intentionally wants you to care about certain wrestlers more than others, then I'd say that is forcing you to like someone.
|
|
|
Post by hossfan on Jan 4, 2015 15:43:58 GMT -5
Wanting you to like certain wrestlers isn't the same as forcing you to, so no.
|
|
deancubed
Don Corleone
Playing League of Legends
Posts: 1,350
|
Post by deancubed on Jan 4, 2015 17:42:33 GMT -5
Every single time someone likes a character on TV, it's because they liked how that character was presented on the TV show. Either the concept of the character (or 'gimmick') is intriguing or entertaining, or the performance by the actor draws viewers in. WWE is no different. If you like a character on RAW, it's because the WWE has presented that character in a way you like, due to booking choices, actor choices, or the inherent character concept (gimmick). So YES, not only can WWE make us like a superstar, they have made us like EVERY superstar. EDIT: The Exception to this is when a character stops being liked. While motivations, booking, and writing can play a part, often in WWE superstars are disliked by fans because of meta-viewers worrying about backstage politics, rumours of future plans, etc. Those aspects of the character were never presented in the TV show. Right now Roman Reigns' gimmick is "Someday he's going to get a major push by Vince and creative, and some people don't think he deserves it". But that aspect of the character isn't a part of the show, that's all generated by meta-viewers. That's not what I'm talking about though. A character being designed to get over and then getting over is not us being forced to like them. That is a character catching on well, but ALL characters are designed to catch on, and if wrestling promoters could actually force us to like somebody then Evad Sullivan, that handful of bogus Von Erichs, Verne Gagne's kid, all of these guys would be over like rover because promoters can force us to like someone, right? Writing a character well and booking a wrestler well, thusly making them popular is not forcing us to like them. How else are they supposed to get you to like a given superstar? Writing, booking, and character concept are really the only tools the WWE has to get someone over. So for every wrestler you like in the WWE, it's because WWE presented them in a way that appealed to you.
|
|
adamclark52
El Dandy
I'm one with the Force; the Force is with me
Posts: 8,139
|
Post by adamclark52 on Jan 4, 2015 17:48:37 GMT -5
They can try. If they succeed depends on how much of a sheep you are.
|
|
|
Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jan 4, 2015 17:49:39 GMT -5
That's not what I'm talking about though. A character being designed to get over and then getting over is not us being forced to like them. That is a character catching on well, but ALL characters are designed to catch on, and if wrestling promoters could actually force us to like somebody then Evad Sullivan, that handful of bogus Von Erichs, Verne Gagne's kid, all of these guys would be over like rover because promoters can force us to like someone, right? Writing a character well and booking a wrestler well, thusly making them popular is not forcing us to like them. How else are they supposed to get you to like a given superstar? Writing, booking, and character concept are really the only tools the WWE has to get someone over. So for every wrestler you like in the WWE, it's because WWE presented them in a way that appealed to you. The point is the difference between forcing and attempting/succeeding.
|
|
|
Post by hossfan on Jan 4, 2015 18:00:52 GMT -5
Can anyone who voted "Yes" give an example of when WWE forced you to like a particular wrestler?
|
|
Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
|
Post by Reflecto on Jan 4, 2015 19:20:15 GMT -5
How else are they supposed to get you to like a given superstar? Writing, booking, and character concept are really the only tools the WWE has to get someone over. So for every wrestler you like in the WWE, it's because WWE presented them in a way that appealed to you. The answer: WWE's biggest example that goes against "they can force you to like someone" is the nature of people who came in with a pre-made reputation. Whether it's an indy darling who gets signed now, or an ECW/WCW big name in the Attitude Era, or a huge territorial standout in the Rock and Wrestling era, the same point goes there: You don't "like them" because of anything the WWE did, but because you liked them in some other company and now they're in the WWE and have a chance to become a star. It's an important part of pro wrestling to get some pre-made guys who are over- but it's about as much "you being forced to like someone" as, for a regular entertainment example- liking the film series's portrayal of Sherlock Holmes because Robert Downey Jr. is playing him. Maybe the company "cast" him in the role- but they didn't do anything to MAKE you like him- you ALREADY liked him beforehand, and they're just piggybacking on that good will they already had. Having said that, this is an unfair question: Can anyone who voted "Yes" give an example of when WWE forced you to like a particular wrestler? This is unreasonable to ask, simply because of how it works: If WWE did it RIGHT, you won't KNOW they forced you to like that particular wrestler- you'll have come to the conclusion yourself naturally and won't believe it was forced. The only issue comes in the example I gave (it's not like, for example, WWE went to Ring of Honor in 2002 and said "We're really thinking about pushing this American Dragon kid to the moon 10 years from now, so push him really hard here so that he'll get a grassroots viral marketing thing going before we sign him"), and again in cases where WWE does it so blatantly that it's impossible to ignore they're trying to make you like someone- in which case, as we see with Cena/Reigns/people of that ilk, the natural response is to turn your backs on them.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2015 19:40:56 GMT -5
Dopes? Absolutely. There is a large portion of their audience that isn't trying to look behind it all, if they're even capable of working anything out for themselves back there.
A lot of people see pushes and just file right in. They were put on this Earth to be worked by marketing. Vince would not have a wrestling promotion if not for these people.
A smark tends to default as wanting to be critical of such things, but that doesn't mean the guy/gal can't have a moment and start turning you, just that you're tuned in enough to resent hammy pushes. It's always so obvious and the more they want it, the less you want to give it to them.
|
|
|
Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Jan 4, 2015 22:21:35 GMT -5
No, they definitely can't. If WWE could just 'make' you like somebody, we'd never be criticizing John Cena's character, because his character is what they desperately want us to buy into. 18 seconds would have launched Sheamus into superstardom instead of turning everyone against him and starting Daniel Bryan on his journey to where he is now. We would have believed King when he told us that the fans were chanting "Let's go Sheamus" instead of "Let's go Ziggler". Batista's winded promo about winning the Rumble "for the fans" wouldn't have been shat on live.
It always relies on something about what we're presented with connecting for us. Recent years have proven that simply being told to like a guy isn't enough, both in terms of rejected megapushes and in unlikely wrestlers who weren't planned to be the guy getting mega over. It's not that guys get over in spite of WWE pushing them, but it's not just because they get pushed. Cesaro got a lot more over when presented as a big deal in the lead-up to Elimination Chamber, but they weren't telling us to like him, they just held a series of matches where he got to wrestle with higher-ups for long stretches and f***ed stepped up to the occasion. He looked good and we liked him for it. But then there's someone like Ziggler who loses to everyone who matters constantly, still getting over because he has something people are willing to buy into.
Your Hogans and your Austins weren't handpicked and everyone simply did as they were told. They made connections and got the crowd to care, and for it they rose up the ranks. They certainly had the machine behind them, but they never had to desperately tell the booing audience that Hogan was the paragon of goodness and to please stop booing him.
|
|
|
Post by hossfan on Jan 5, 2015 11:10:04 GMT -5
How else are they supposed to get you to like a given superstar? Writing, booking, and character concept are really the only tools the WWE has to get someone over. So for every wrestler you like in the WWE, it's because WWE presented them in a way that appealed to you. The answer: WWE's biggest example that goes against "they can force you to like someone" is the nature of people who came in with a pre-made reputation. Whether it's an indy darling who gets signed now, or an ECW/WCW big name in the Attitude Era, or a huge territorial standout in the Rock and Wrestling era, the same point goes there: You don't "like them" because of anything the WWE did, but because you liked them in some other company and now they're in the WWE and have a chance to become a star. It's an important part of pro wrestling to get some pre-made guys who are over- but it's about as much "you being forced to like someone" as, for a regular entertainment example- liking the film series's portrayal of Sherlock Holmes because Robert Downey Jr. is playing him. Maybe the company "cast" him in the role- but they didn't do anything to MAKE you like him- you ALREADY liked him beforehand, and they're just piggybacking on that good will they already had. Having said that, this is an unfair question: Can anyone who voted "Yes" give an example of when WWE forced you to like a particular wrestler? This is unreasonable to ask, simply because of how it works: If WWE did it RIGHT, you won't KNOW they forced you to like that particular wrestler- you'll have come to the conclusion yourself naturally and won't believe it was forced. The only issue comes in the example I gave (it's not like, for example, WWE went to Ring of Honor in 2002 and said "We're really thinking about pushing this American Dragon kid to the moon 10 years from now, so push him really hard here so that he'll get a grassroots viral marketing thing going before we sign him"), and again in cases where WWE does it so blatantly that it's impossible to ignore they're trying to make you like someone- in which case, as we see with Cena/Reigns/people of that ilk, the natural response is to turn your backs on them. The question isn't unreasonable at all. The only way to empirically prove that WWE has forced someone to like a wrestler is through personal experience. These claims that its been achieved because the "dopes", the "sheep", and the "marks" support wrestlers who don't deserve the pushes they've gotten can be rejected out of hand due to bias.
|
|
Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
|
Post by Reflecto on Jan 5, 2015 13:06:25 GMT -5
Having said that, this is an unfair question: This is unreasonable to ask, simply because of how it works: If WWE did it RIGHT, you won't KNOW they forced you to like that particular wrestler- you'll have come to the conclusion yourself naturally and won't believe it was forced. The only issue comes in the example I gave (it's not like, for example, WWE went to Ring of Honor in 2002 and said "We're really thinking about pushing this American Dragon kid to the moon 10 years from now, so push him really hard here so that he'll get a grassroots viral marketing thing going before we sign him"), and again in cases where WWE does it so blatantly that it's impossible to ignore they're trying to make you like someone- in which case, as we see with Cena/Reigns/people of that ilk, the natural response is to turn your backs on them. The question isn't unreasonable at all. The only way to empirically prove that WWE has forced someone to like a wrestler is through personal experience. These claims that its been achieved because the "dopes", the "sheep", and the "marks" support wrestlers who don't deserve the pushes they've gotten can be rejected out of hand due to bias. [/quote] But that is my point as well- you can only see it based on personal experience, but if it's personal experience, then you can't say you were "forced" into liking them, because personal experience comes with your own personal confirmation bias to give you a reason for why this wrestler you formerly didn't like won you over. Using a semi-personal experience here: Me and Rave have been friends for years. From 2005-2009, she had been HAMMERING this one undercard wrestler huge. In her eyes, this guy could do no right, he was one of the worst wrestlers in the WWE and didn't deserve his job at all. The guy was absolutely terrible and that was that. That wrestler she hated so much? Chavo's Caddy Nick Nemeth/Spirit Squad Nicky, aka Dolph Ziggler. Now, of course, it's far different. Ziggler became, well, Dolph Ziggler. He became very good as Ziggler, and became one of the best performers in the company bar none- and that early hatred has dissipated. Now, like most fans here, she is a Ziggler fan. Did the WWE FORCE this change and go to her, saying "Okay, on the count of three, you'll stop hating this guy and start loving Dolph Ziggler?" Not at all. It happened through years of Ziggler stepping his game up and blossoming into a great performer. But the same form happened- this wrestler who was formerly despised is now beloved as one of the best parts of the company. It wasn't a forced change, but the change happened so gradually and so subtly that there's no one moment when the change happened- it just...happened. That goes to my whole point: When the WWE has made you like someone right, it will seem like they hadn't done anything at all. When it does seem like they did- you have problems.
|
|
MrBRulzOK
Wade Wilson
Mr No-Pants Heathen
Something Witty Here.
Posts: 26,719
|
Post by MrBRulzOK on Jan 5, 2015 13:14:20 GMT -5
They might be able to get you to cheer for them, but that's about it. If they're not paying money to see these guys, either by purchasing tickets to see them at house shows or merchandise to support them, it means very little if they happen to get good reactions all the time.
|
|
deancubed
Don Corleone
Playing League of Legends
Posts: 1,350
|
Post by deancubed on Jan 5, 2015 13:42:43 GMT -5
Having said that, this is an unfair question: This is unreasonable to ask, simply because of how it works: If WWE did it RIGHT, you won't KNOW they forced you to like that particular wrestler- you'll have come to the conclusion yourself naturally and won't believe it was forced. The only issue comes in the example I gave (it's not like, for example, WWE went to Ring of Honor in 2002 and said "We're really thinking about pushing this American Dragon kid to the moon 10 years from now, so push him really hard here so that he'll get a grassroots viral marketing thing going before we sign him"), and again in cases where WWE does it so blatantly that it's impossible to ignore they're trying to make you like someone- in which case, as we see with Cena/Reigns/people of that ilk, the natural response is to turn your backs on them. The question isn't unreasonable at all. The only way to empirically prove that WWE has forced someone to like a wrestler is through personal experience. These claims that its been achieved because the "dopes", the "sheep", and the "marks" support wrestlers who don't deserve the pushes they've gotten can be rejected out of hand due to bias. But that is my point as well- you can only see it based on personal experience, but if it's personal experience, then you can't say you were "forced" into liking them, because personal experience comes with your own personal confirmation bias to give you a reason for why this wrestler you formerly didn't like won you over. Using a semi-personal experience here: Me and Rave have been friends for years. From 2005-2009, she had been HAMMERING this one undercard wrestler huge. In her eyes, this guy could do no right, he was one of the worst wrestlers in the WWE and didn't deserve his job at all. The guy was absolutely terrible and that was that. That wrestler she hated so much? Chavo's Caddy Nick Nemeth/Spirit Squad Nicky, aka Dolph Ziggler. Now, of course, it's far different. Ziggler became, well, Dolph Ziggler. He became very good as Ziggler, and became one of the best performers in the company bar none- and that early hatred has dissipated. Now, like most fans here, she is a Ziggler fan. Did the WWE FORCE this change and go to her, saying "Okay, on the count of three, you'll stop hating this guy and start loving Dolph Ziggler?" Not at all. It happened through years of Ziggler stepping his game up and blossoming into a great performer. But the same form happened- this wrestler who was formerly despised is now beloved as one of the best parts of the company. It wasn't a forced change, but the change happened so gradually and so subtly that there's no one moment when the change happened- it just...happened. That goes to my whole point: When the WWE has made you like someone right, it will seem like they hadn't done anything at all. When it does seem like they did- you have problems. He can improve all day but if WWE doesn't present him to you, he's just another Chris Masters. You guys like Ziggler now because WWE made you like him. The actor they hired to play him improved, under WWE's direction and production. He was given matches, time to speak to the audience, and title reigns.
|
|