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Post by cabbageboy on May 29, 2015 22:37:08 GMT -5
I think I mentally tapped out on TNA being a serious company around the time Rob Van Dam had to vacate the title due to his contract having such limited dates that they couldn't book him (and wrote him out with a slight case of near death). If you recall mid 2010 TNA actually had turned it around quite a bit from the horrid early Hogan/Bischoff shows. The tag stuff was rocking during that time period, and the "Angle must go through the top 10" storyline was seemingly leading to a big match with him and RVD for the title. I think that match could have been big if TNA could have actually, you know, promoted properly. TNA couldn't book the most obvious thing in the world, namely a quality champion beating people cleanly vs. a serious challenger who went through everyone for 6 months. But then again Paul Heyman didn't book the whole 1999 era RVD/Taz deal in ECW any better.
But yeah, it was after the image of RVD in the pool of ketchup blood that I gave up on TNA being a big time show, or having the ability to be one.
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chrom
Backup Wench
Master of the rare undecuple post
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Post by chrom on May 29, 2015 22:40:11 GMT -5
I think I mentally tapped out on TNA being a serious company around the time Rob Van Dam had to vacate the title due to his contract having such limited dates that they couldn't book him (and wrote him out with a slight case of near death). If you recall mid 2010 TNA actually had turned it around quite a bit from the horrid early Hogan/Bischoff shows. The tag stuff was rocking during that time period, and the "Angle must go through the top 10" storyline was seemingly leading to a big match with him and RVD for the title. I think that match could have been big if TNA could have actually, you know, promoted properly. TNA couldn't book the most obvious thing in the world, namely a quality champion beating people cleanly vs. a serious challenger who went through everyone for 6 months. But then again Paul Heyman didn't book the whole 1999 era RVD/Taz deal in ECW any better. But yeah, it was after the image of RVD in the pool of ketchup blood that I gave up on TNA being a big time show, or having the ability to be one. And that was less than 20 minutes after The Guns and Beer Money had had the final match in their best of 5 series.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2015 22:48:52 GMT -5
Let's not forget the stupidity of how RVD started his title reign to begin with - random unannounced match with Jeff at the start of Impact for a title shot later in the show, then he just randomly beat AJ and ended the at-the-time longest TNA title run with zero build or fanfare.
And of course there's how Hogan and Bischoff's plan was apparently for RVD to beat Jeff then win the title with their backing then be stripped of it then for Jeff to get through the tournament to crown a new champion entirely without help, so they could then help him win the title. And how RVD was back before they had actually crowned the new champion, and how at a point both of the guys they helped Jeff beat to win the title and become their corporation champion at a time won the belt and served as the corporate champion themselves.
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Post by Jedi-El of Tomorrow on May 29, 2015 23:19:49 GMT -5
Let's not forget the stupidity of how RVD started his title reign to begin with - random unannounced match with Jeff at the start of Impact for a title shot later in the show, then he just randomly beat AJ and ended the at-the-time longest TNA title run with zero build or fanfare. Great response to going against a Raw where most of the WWE roster was stuck overseas. Give away RVD vs Jeff with no promotion, and then RVD vs AJ with no promotion.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on May 29, 2015 23:28:07 GMT -5
Define big?
Dethrone WWE and become the #1 promotion in North America.
Nope, in fact, a lot of their issues stemmed from trying to get to that position.
become a solid #2 and a great alternative to the WWE. Absolutely, they had several chances to do that and every single time they turned around and shot themselves in the foot.
Now if they stuck to the alternative and actually built on it then amybe eventually they could take on the WWE ... eventually...
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on May 29, 2015 23:55:13 GMT -5
I think I mentally tapped out on TNA being a serious company around the time Rob Van Dam had to vacate the title due to his contract having such limited dates that they couldn't book him (and wrote him out with a slight case of near death). If you recall mid 2010 TNA actually had turned it around quite a bit from the horrid early Hogan/Bischoff shows. The tag stuff was rocking during that time period, and the "Angle must go through the top 10" storyline was seemingly leading to a big match with him and RVD for the title. I think that match could have been big if TNA could have actually, you know, promoted properly. TNA couldn't book the most obvious thing in the world, namely a quality champion beating people cleanly vs. a serious challenger who went through everyone for 6 months. But then again Paul Heyman didn't book the whole 1999 era RVD/Taz deal in ECW any better. But yeah, it was after the image of RVD in the pool of ketchup blood that I gave up on TNA being a big time show, or having the ability to be one. Another reason, having the angles make sense. The fact they did the RVD injury angle but didn't crown the new champion until the day RVD returns to the ring. Which to say just say WHAT WAS THE POINT?
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Post by Hit Girl on May 30, 2015 0:16:00 GMT -5
TNA has always been WCW circa 2000
A mess, no identity of its own, and meekly trying to emulate WWE.
They never had a vision for anything distinct. They should have been NXT before NXT was even conceptualised by WWE. A stripped down, no bullshit, well booked, pro wrestling promotion. They could hire a few old WCW/WWE/ECW guys here and there, but only younger wrestlers who could be repackaged as something distinct. The majority of their roster should have been indie signings. You avoid cancers like Russo and guys like Hogan who are too expensive and too closely identified with other promotions.
The name "TNA" should have been dropped as soon as the Carters took over. They needed a small group of experienced bookers working closely with a small management team to keep everything consistent and coherent. Distinct divisions and a recognisable style and branding. Wherever WWE was failing, that was the opportunity to take advantage. If WWE thinks tag teams and cruiserweights and women are jokes, you push strong divisions in each. If WWE have too many evil bosses, you don't have one. If WWE announcers ignore the match, you focus your commentators on the matches, if WWE is oversaturated and repetitive, you take every step to make sure you aren't, and so forth...
None of this happened.
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jimmyjames
Hank Scorpio
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Post by jimmyjames on May 30, 2015 3:37:19 GMT -5
They where never going to be on the same level as WCW was between 1989-1996, a solid legitimate challenge to WWF. The wrestling industry and media industry had changed, and there was nothing TNA could've done about that. Also in that realm, they never had a deep pocketed owner who had a reason to more money and invest in them like WCW had. That being said, they had numerous opportunities to be a solid but distant #2 and a legitimate alternative to WWE. Obviously they screwed that up and the reason why could be a dissertation.
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Professor Chaos
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Bringer of Destruction and Maker of Doom
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Post by Professor Chaos on May 30, 2015 3:54:15 GMT -5
In 2006-2007 I heard a lot of people that don't even watch wrestling anymore praise how awesome TNA was and how much WWE sucked.
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Rave
El Dandy
Perpetually Bored
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Post by Rave on May 30, 2015 4:58:27 GMT -5
It's funny how the two best time periods that TNA had were ruined by someone either coming back or coming in. 2005, when things were actually going really well? Russo came back and ruined it. Late 2009, when Russo was actually booking decent television? Hogan/Bischoff came in and ruined it.
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King Devitt
Grimlock
It gets better the longer you stare at it
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Post by King Devitt on May 30, 2015 5:14:03 GMT -5
I thought in 2009 they were on the verge of at least being consistent in the ratings with room for growth (They were pulling in 1.4s for a little while) and a solid mix of veterans and younger talent to move forward with. And then Hogan/Bischoff happen and they shot for the moon and missed by a few million feet. Yup, right before Hogan/Bischoff came in it was consistently good, great use of talent, well booked and getting good numbers. I thought for sure they had momentum on their side. I enjoyed 2006/7-Hogan coming in. I also think before Angle came in and ruined Samoa Joe, putting the belt on Joe as this dominant force with a lengthy reign (much like ROH) would have gotten them some attention too.
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Reflecto
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The Sorceress' Knight
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Post by Reflecto on May 30, 2015 5:28:17 GMT -5
TNA has always been WCW circa 2000 A mess, no identity of its own, and meekly trying to emulate WWE. They never had a vision for anything distinct. They should have been NXT before NXT was even conceptualised by WWE. A stripped down, no bullshit, well booked, pro wrestling promotion. They could hire a few old WCW/WWE/ECW guys here and there, but only younger wrestlers who could be repackaged as something distinct. The majority of their roster should have been indie signings. You avoid cancers like Russo and guys like Hogan who are too expensive and too closely identified with other promotions. The name "TNA" should have been dropped as soon as the Carters took over. They needed a small group of experienced bookers working closely with a small management team to keep everything consistent and coherent. Distinct divisions and a recognisable style and branding. Wherever WWE was failing, that was the opportunity to take advantage. If WWE thinks tag teams and cruiserweights and women are jokes, you push strong divisions in each. If WWE have too many evil bosses, you don't have one. If WWE announcers ignore the match, you focus your commentators on the matches, if WWE is oversaturated and repetitive, you take every step to make sure you aren't, and so forth... None of this happened. The problem with that is that, saying TNA was WCW circa 2000 is unfair, since even at the very best TNA ever was, they were "what WCW would have been if they lived past 2001". People remember how much of a dumpster fire WCW was in 2000, but it's forgotten to the passage of time that WCW was starting to turn the corner in 2001- and indeed, if Fusient managed to buy them or they got a new TV deal, WCW probably would have turned out just fine afterwards- likely never making it to the level that they could compete with WWE, but able to be a solid number two promotion from there on out. At the best WCW was, they would have been "WCW if they survived past 2001", and at its worse, they were "WCW circa 2000".
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Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
Surviving
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Post by Sephiroth on May 30, 2015 7:59:02 GMT -5
At one time TNA was growing as a promotion and did appear on the verge of breaking into the mainstream-but I think the context needs to be remembered. To count out: 1. at one time TNA was drawing ratings that were consistently equal to, and sometimes better than ECW-except ECW was WWE's third tier show, and this was at a time when WWE was giving us things like John Cena vs The Great Khali. 2. they landed their first toy deal-but it was with Jakks, which was basically a WWE castoff 3. they got their first video game deal-and it received pretty good reviews but didn't sell all that well 4. they landed their first bit of sponsorship with Stacker 2-which was also a WWE castoff 5. they got their first bit of cross-promotion with Tracy Brooke posing for Playboy-and she promptly got bumped from the planned cover, and then from the printed magazine entirely
This all paints the picture of a promotion that was starting to toy with expanding their revenue sources, but that was stuck gobbling up WWE's leftovers rather than going their own way. And even as they expanded, it was still a two steps forward, one step back process.
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Post by cabbageboy on May 30, 2015 9:57:34 GMT -5
Yeah, again it's the identity crisis with TNA. I don't think they ever figured out whether they wanted to be a cult alternative to WWE or a new major #2 promotion. It was more glaring once they hit Spike TV. On the weekly PPVs and Fox it was clear TNA was just an alternative show. Once they got on Spike it was this constant tension of trying to be mainstream, yet the roster itself was full of guys from ROH and indies that were more alt rock than arena rock.
Further, Russo doesn't know how to book serious wrestling. The sad irony is that Russo understood the dated nature of 80s Southern wrestling, but his alternative is late 90s Crash TV. His style worked in late 90s era WWF because they had an overall weak roster of wrestlers who were largely very good at doing sports entertainment. It was the same problem he had in WCW, taking over a roster of guys who were either from the bygone 80s era or were more modern serious technical wrestlers...few of them were ideal for his "sports entertainment" style.
Some of Russo's best stuff was actually the 1997 time period, where WWF was churning out more intense storylines but also still had a pretty strong roster of wrestlers to work with: Bret, Shawn, Owen, Bulldog, pre injury Austin, even guys like Taker and Vader.
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Scott
Dennis Stamp
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Post by Scott on May 30, 2015 10:09:09 GMT -5
They were like someone who opens a store that does good business for a week and decides to immediately open 20 more stores. Too much too fast.
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Post by Ryushinku on May 30, 2015 14:55:59 GMT -5
I've always felt that the good mid-to-late 2009 period was down to Russo knowing Hogan and Bisch were coming in, just putting in minimum effort due to that and basically just letting the guys wrestle (mostly). And, surprise surprise, it worked. It should've been a lighter touch all along.
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Aya Reiko
Team Rocket
Judgement Day is here.
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Post by Aya Reiko on May 30, 2015 16:19:27 GMT -5
I thought in 2009 they were on the verge of at least being consistent in the ratings with room for growth (They were pulling in 1.4s for a little while) and a solid mix of veterans and younger talent to move forward with. And then Hogan/Bischoff happen and they shot for the moon and missed by a few million feet. Yup, right before Hogan/Bischoff came in it was consistently good, great use of talent, well booked and getting good numbers. I thought for sure they had momentum on their side. I enjoyed 2006/7-Hogan coming in. I also think before Angle came in and ruined Samoa Joe, putting the belt on Joe as this dominant force with a lengthy reign (much like ROH) would have gotten them some attention too. For as much blame people give to Hogan & Bischoff (deservedly so, BTW), they fail to realize of all of the problems and mistakes they made, Jarrett/Mantel/Russo also did those too. Over-reliance of ageing ex-WWE/WCW/ECW stars? check Neverending faction feuds? mEm and a dozen others says "hi" Systematic destruction of the X-Division? yup Diva-fication of the Knockouts? that too The list really could go on...
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markymark
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 18,277
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Post by markymark on May 30, 2015 16:31:33 GMT -5
With all the buzz around The X-Division in 2004/5, I figured they could be. I had read stuff in magazines about how great TNA and their X-Division was with such talents as Samoa Joe, AJ Styles, Christopher Daniels, Chris Sabin, and I had to seek them out. I loved what I saw and thought they definitely have a chance with talent like that. Then they lost focus on the X-Division. Back to shows headlined by WCW-2000-mindsetted Jeff Jarrett with main events full of run-ins, guitar shots and stupidity. They had a chance to feel different from WWE and instead they went for WWE-lite and hit it full on. Then Angle came along ... and I doubted they could fail with such a huge signing. Spoilers; they did. That was the last time I felt like they had a true chance. I dodn't think Hogan and Bischoff would do much other than make the their own personal play thing and that's exactly what happened. Everything that was working before they showed up - Desmond Wolfe, Pope, AJ as champ - was stripped of everything good and replaced with the Nasty Boys and Orlando Jordan. I believe everyone is deserving of a second chance. TNA has had at least 20. They don't deserve support anymore as the underdog companpany with potential; they're the WWE-lite that never was. Yep, even with those called Great Years of TNA (2005-2006), there was a lot of crash TV booking with Jarrett being a poor man HHH, the moment Monty Brown turned heel as when I felt TNA lost the chance in attempting to become big.
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mo
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
"Here are the young men, the weight on their shoulders..."
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Post by mo on May 30, 2015 16:33:57 GMT -5
I remember even saying in the thread when it happened that I thought Angle going to TNA was going to be the start of something big. Wasn't to be obviously, but at the time it was major.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2015 23:45:30 GMT -5
Yes. In fact, aside from Turner owning both WCW and his own television channels, there has never been a company with so many opportunities to make it. They had every chance in the world.
That's why I hate them, because they pissed it away every single time.
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