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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2015 0:29:32 GMT -5
So you feel wrestlers don't die early regularly? No, they do, that's the only actual fact you've stated. But you've shown me NOTHING but your opinion to prove they do it at a higher rate than other athlete. Absolutely nothing beyond "Well, I see it, don't you?" EDIT: Or, I should say "At a rate higher enough to lend validity to shutting down the entire institution", is probably a better wording. Am I getting paid to continue here? Just saying "No" to me is kinda tedious. I'm not trying to prove anything. It's ok to disagree you know. But constantly asking for more proof (especially at 1:30 am) is kinda goofy. I don't have to prove anything. I've offered what I think heh. Probably time to move on.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jul 2, 2015 0:30:20 GMT -5
I'm not going to spend hours getting numbers proving that wrestlers die early. You either see it or you don't. Yeah, why waste time with "Facts", when appealing to emotion is so much easier? It's also an entirely emotional move to compare wrestling to football or swimming or whatever in the first place. The entire thing is, "Hey, you feel okay with those things, right? So you should be okay with this other thing I'm comparing to it!" That stuff is totally irrelevant. People have died explicitly and unarguably because of pro wrestling. Literally in the ring. Many other people have died indirectly because of painkiller or other drug addictions. Still many others are alive but have much lower quality of life from having been wrestlers. Should that exist? Is the freedom to do it worth that price, and, importantly, the price of encouraging other, younger and more naive people to do it later? That's the interesting point of contention. Liberty vs. care.
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Jul 2, 2015 0:36:32 GMT -5
Yeah, why waste time with "Facts", when appealing to emotion is so much easier? It's also an entirely emotional move to compare wrestling to football or swimming or whatever in the first place. The entire thing is, "Hey, you feel okay with those things, right? So you should be okay with this other thing I'm comparing to it!" That stuff is totally irrelevant. People have died explicitly and unarguably because of pro wrestling. Literally in the ring. Many other people have died indirectly because of painkiller or other drug addictions. Still many others are alive but have much lower quality of life from having been wrestlers. Should that exist? Is the freedom to do it worth that price, and, importantly, the price of encouraging other, younger and more naive people to do it later? That's the interesting point of contention. Liberty vs. care. When the main thrust of argument is "Wrestlers die at a higher clip than other athletes", I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for proof of that statement beyond "Oh, well, don't you see it?" I don't see how that's an appeal to emotion at all. Talking about the "poor, young, misguided lambs being led to the slaughter by Vince's Judas Goats" is a much more emotional response than asking for hard numbers proving your point.
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Post by Milkman Norm on Jul 2, 2015 0:38:25 GMT -5
Should anything exist?
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Jul 2, 2015 0:39:01 GMT -5
Evidently not. Existence may lead to death. Outcome unacceptable.
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Blindkarevik
Grimlock
Rock... Paper... Straight-edge!
I Like To <blank>
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Post by Blindkarevik on Jul 2, 2015 0:38:55 GMT -5
I've always said wrestling is this strange animal. It should've died in the 1930s when that infamous incident where a reporter got drunk with a bunch of promoters, who spilled the beans on the next night's card results and the reporter put it in the paper. That should've killed the sport dead as people thought it was a legit sporting event before then, but instead.... it adapted, survived and thrived. Wrestling is unlike almost any other medium, so explaining how it came to be compared to how it is, is pretty difficult when you're searching for rationale.
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Post by Milkman Norm on Jul 2, 2015 0:39:48 GMT -5
Evidently not. Existence may lead to death. Outcome unacceptable. I'm gonna go read Waiting for Godot.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2015 0:41:28 GMT -5
I'm now disappointed in making this thread, because it will now devolve into "Which thing is more harmful: x or y" which is an endless argument.
Football or wrestling?
Guns or knives?
pot or alcohol?
It's almost a stupid political argument. None of this can be ever proven one way or the other. The thread was "should wrestling exist" not "Is wrestling more/less harmful than x" I did fix the problem for the future though.
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Jul 2, 2015 0:43:09 GMT -5
Evidently not. Existence may lead to death. Outcome unacceptable. I'm gonna go read Waiting for Godot. Careful not to get a papercut. If only some courageous soul could protect us from the imminent danger of books.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2015 0:45:29 GMT -5
Same for football. Same for hockey, boxing, martial arts, Cirque du Soleil, swimming, eating, smoking, drinking, shall I go on? I'm going to go ahead and guess, without researching it, that people that participate in all of those things tend to have a longer life span than WWF/E wrestlers on average. That can't really be proven since that's a lot of stuff to test against wrestlers, but considering how wrestlers seem to have a sub 50% chance of actually reaching age 50? (If they don't now, they sure used to 15-20 years ago) I feel fine with that. With wrestlers though, it's not just the sport. It's the lifestyle. A lot of jazz musicians were dying young in the 50s and 60s, it's not because jazz is physically damaging to play. It's just the eccentric people it attracted were also more likely to make riskier decisions in life, just like wrestling. The lifestyle seems to have cleared up, and hopefully that means we'll see a lot less of these guys dying young.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2015 0:47:41 GMT -5
I'm going to go ahead and guess, without researching it, that people that participate in all of those things tend to have a longer life span than WWF/E wrestlers on average. That can't really be proven since that's a lot of stuff to test against wrestlers, but considering how wrestlers seem to have a sub 50% chance of actually reaching age 50? (If they don't now, they sure used to 15-20 years ago) I feel fine with that. With wrestlers though, it's not just the sport. It's the lifestyle. A lot of jazz musicians were dying young in the 50s and 60s, it's not because jazz is physically damaging to play. It's just the eccentric people it attracted were also more likely to make riskier decisions in life, just like wrestling. The lifestyle seems to have cleared up, and hopefully that means we'll see a lot less of these guys dying young. There's definitely that since we had wrestlers dying of heart problems due to cocaine, steroids, painkillers and the like due to the more casual use of such things then vs now. How much less I guess we'll have to just wait and see, but yes probably less.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2015 0:49:35 GMT -5
With wrestlers though, it's not just the sport. It's the lifestyle. A lot of jazz musicians were dying young in the 50s and 60s, it's not because jazz is physically damaging to play. It's just the eccentric people it attracted were also more likely to make riskier decisions in life, just like wrestling. The lifestyle seems to have cleared up, and hopefully that means we'll see a lot less of these guys dying young. There's definitely that since we had wrestlers dying of heart problems due to cocaine, steroids, painkillers and the like due to the more casual use of such things then vs now. How much less I guess we'll have to just wait and see, but yes probably less. As a sociology/psychology/research nerd, I will be keeping a close eye on this.
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Post by Clawley Race on Jul 2, 2015 0:50:28 GMT -5
So you feel wrestlers don't die early regularly? No, they do, that's the only actual fact you've stated. But you've shown me NOTHING but your opinion to prove they do it at a higher rate than other athlete. Absolutely nothing beyond "Well, I see it, don't you?" EDIT: Or, I should say "At a rate higher enough to lend validity to shutting down the entire institution", is probably a better wording. Smokers die early. There is no direct correlation between smoking and getting cancer/emphysema.
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Post by Milkman Norm on Jul 2, 2015 0:53:44 GMT -5
I'm gonna go read Waiting for Godot. Careful not to get a papercut. If only some courageous soul could protect us from the imminent danger of books. mmm Existentialism
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2015 0:57:52 GMT -5
There's definitely that since we had wrestlers dying of heart problems due to cocaine, steroids, painkillers and the like due to the more casual use of such things then vs now. How much less I guess we'll have to just wait and see, but yes probably less. As a sociology/psychology/research nerd, I will be keeping a close eye on this. *sneaks up at the last minute and gives you a wedgie to break your concentration*
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2015 1:04:48 GMT -5
Evidently not. Existence may lead to death. Outcome unacceptable. I'm gonna go read Waiting for Godot. Ooh, if you do, gotta read Endgame afterwords.
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Post by Hot Noodle Truck on Jul 2, 2015 1:52:04 GMT -5
I think the business of wrestling is unique in the fact that the brutality and long term mental and physical effects get brushed to the side a lot because it's 'fake.' Football, hockey, MMA and other physical sports get taken more seriously because the effects are immediate. Dude gets hit with a nasty tackle and pops his shoulder out, he gets taken out of the game. Wrestler takes a bad bump and pops his shoulder out, tough shit, finish the match.
As someone else said earlier, wrestling is awesome. The wrestling business itself is f***ing terrible.
And I gotta say, this is an interesting topic, so thanks for that OP. Certainly breaks up the 'Cena/Cole/Raw/WWE/everything except Owens and Lesnar sucks' vibe.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jul 2, 2015 6:00:57 GMT -5
Don't take offense to me saying it shouldn't exist. I like wrestling or I wouldn't post here. Just picture a world where wrestling didn't exist, then someone proposing it now. This isn't some "lets get rid of wrestling" idea. It just popped out as weird to me when I thought about it. It's a bizarre idea. The idea of fake fighting that actually hurts a hell of a lot. Also good lord if you watch the network, some of those chair blasts to the head are ridiculous. Even if you saw them when they happened and didn't think anything of it, holy shit they just blast each other unprotected with no hands up. Sometimes a bunch of times too. I'm actually surprised there's only been 1 Chris Benoit. The depressing thing is I remember people at the time, as in my friends at school, basically calling people like Rock a pussy for putting his hands up most of the time, despite the fact that 1. it's protecting him in real life 2. from a kayfabe perspective, if you saw a chair coming at you, WHY WOULDN'T YOU PUT YOUR HANDS UP?
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
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Post by Reflecto on Jul 2, 2015 6:49:23 GMT -5
With wrestlers though, it's not just the sport. It's the lifestyle. A lot of jazz musicians were dying young in the 50s and 60s, it's not because jazz is physically damaging to play. It's just the eccentric people it attracted were also more likely to make riskier decisions in life, just like wrestling. The lifestyle seems to have cleared up, and hopefully that means we'll see a lot less of these guys dying young. There's definitely that since we had wrestlers dying of heart problems due to cocaine, steroids, painkillers and the like due to the more casual use of such things then vs now. How much less I guess we'll have to just wait and see, but yes probably less. That is still the biggest point- you cannot possibly say "wrestling should not exist" until you see how it is in the modern day now that drug use is on the decline. While a lot of wrestlers- in THIS era- died young, it should also be mentioned that before the WWE went national (which tied into most of the drug use issues), the amount of wrestlers who died young was far, far lower than it was in that time period- going past even "wrestlers would be about as likely to die young as any other athlete" and into "wrestlers would be about as likely to die young as the average person would" (another benefit to wrestling: MMA was created now when it's 'real' fighting, so of course a promotion that decided 'we'll try and make things safer by only PRETENDING to fight, not really fighting' would be able to exist as well.) This also has to tie into the same problem seen when people complain about all the people who die young going into wrestling: While there IS a correlation between drug use in wrestling, for the purpose of the sport and continuing- people who attack that list of wrestlers who died young don't use the correlation of "deaths that can be caused because of drug use in wrestling", but rather "deaths of people who were professional wrestlers"- which unfairly adds wrestlers who died young for reasons that had nothing to do with the actual act of wrestling whatsoever (whether it be people like a Junkyard Dog or an Adrian Adonis, who died in car accidents, people like Marianna or Earthquake, who died of cancer, or people like Chris Kanyon or Renegade, who committed suicide).
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Bo Rida
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Post by Bo Rida on Jul 2, 2015 7:05:46 GMT -5
People wreck their health in all sorts of jobs without (m)any of the perks that wrestlers get.
I'm sure most would rather die a little early after traveling the world doing what they love than from a lung full of asbestos after a life of back-breaking work in the construction industry.
That said I agree that if wrestling didn't exist nobody would invent it.
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