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Post by Seth Drakin of Monster Crap on Aug 10, 2015 20:21:09 GMT -5
Bountygate was on field issues. You seem to forget that part. It also had no bearing concerning the manipulation nor integrity of the game, as was ruled by an independent arbitrator. I don't think you can make the same argument about deflating footballs. It's in the rulebook not to have bounties. And it has every bearing on the integrity of the game if you are going out there to specifically injure players. Seriously, it's like a guy who was a Washington fan at a Redskins game I was at against the Panthers saw that a TD catch was probably going to be overturned, trying to tell me that their isn't enough evidence to overturn.
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BRV
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Posts: 16,867
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Post by BRV on Aug 10, 2015 20:21:38 GMT -5
Wow...this is still being argued. Bountygate, domestic abuse gate, and all the other NFL screwups of late have nothing in common with Deflategate and the CBA, why is this argument continuing. This is strictly about On Field issues related to the game itself. Not about somebodies criminal case, or their drug convictions. This is totally concerning an on the field issue. Nothing more nothing less. He didn't overstep his bounds in any way and you can thank the NFLPA and the CBA for that. The above interpretation given by the Pats beat writer from the Boston Globe to drum up clicks for himself, to put it bluntly, don't mean shit. 1. Ben Volin of The Boston Globe is widely regarded (and often derided around New England) as one of the most critical, least team-friendly beat writers in the NFL. 2. No, his interpretation is not relevant. But just as irrelevant, according to the NFL's own argument, is Ted Wells' independence. "The NFLPA's contention that Paul, Weiss was not an "independent" investigator and that the Commissioner improperly delegated his fact-finding authority to Paul, Weiss is irrelevant." How the hell else are we supposed to interpret that as anything other than "The NFL bought and paid for a report knowing they were going to get the result they wanted."? It also had no bearing concerning the manipulation nor integrity of the game, as was ruled by an independent arbitrator. I don't think you can make the same argument about deflating footballs. That's why it should go to a judge, because from the first second that this ridiculous "scandal" hit social media, Tom Brady and the Patriots have not had the opportunity to present their case before an independent arbitrator. The Wells Report, as we now know, was not independent. His appeal was presented before Roger Goodell. Again, not independent. That's why a judge should preside over the case, because for the first time, Brady will be allowed to make his case before somebody who is actually neutral.
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Post by bluemeii on Aug 10, 2015 20:24:19 GMT -5
It also had no bearing concerning the manipulation nor integrity of the game, as was ruled by an independent arbitrator. I don't think you can make the same argument about deflating footballs. It's in the rulebook not to have bounties. And it has every bearing on the integrity of the game if you are going out there to specifically injure players. Seriously, it's like a guy at a Redskins game I was at against the Panthers saw that a TD catch was probably going to be overturned, trying to tell me that their isn't enough evidence to overturn. And concerning those that it was determined it affected the integrity of the game. Did they serve a suspension. Yes they did. The players were not determined to have done that if you recall, it was the coaches (or coach in this case even though Payton took a hit) who ran this.
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Post by Seth Drakin of Monster Crap on Aug 10, 2015 20:29:32 GMT -5
It's in the rulebook not to have bounties. And it has every bearing on the integrity of the game if you are going out there to specifically injure players. Seriously, it's like a guy at a Redskins game I was at against the Panthers saw that a TD catch was probably going to be overturned, trying to tell me that their isn't enough evidence to overturn. And concerning those that it was determined it affected the integrity of the game. Did they serve a suspension. Yes they did. The players were not determined to have done that if you recall, it was the coaches (or coach in this case even though Payton took a hit) who ran this. And those ballboys will probably be like the coaches. Brady is like those players who were ultimately going to be determined affected it.
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Post by bluemeii on Aug 10, 2015 20:29:38 GMT -5
Wow...this is still being argued. Bountygate, domestic abuse gate, and all the other NFL screwups of late have nothing in common with Deflategate and the CBA, why is this argument continuing. This is strictly about On Field issues related to the game itself. Not about somebodies criminal case, or their drug convictions. This is totally concerning an on the field issue. Nothing more nothing less. He didn't overstep his bounds in any way and you can thank the NFLPA and the CBA for that. The above interpretation given by the Pats beat writer from the Boston Globe to drum up clicks for himself, to put it bluntly, don't mean shit. 1. Ben Volin of The Boston Globe is widely regarded (and often derided around New England) as one of the most critical, least team-friendly beat writers in the NFL. 2. No, his interpretation is not relevant. But just as irrelevant, according to the NFL's own argument, is Ted Wells' independence. "The NFLPA's contention that Paul, Weiss was not an "independent" investigator and that the Commissioner improperly delegated his fact-finding authority to Paul, Weiss is irrelevant." How the hell else are we supposed to interpret that as anything other than "The NFL bought and paid for a report knowing they were going to get the result they wanted."? It also had no bearing concerning the manipulation nor integrity of the game, as was ruled by an independent arbitrator. I don't think you can make the same argument about deflating footballs. That's why it should go to a judge, because from the first second that this ridiculous "scandal" hit social media, Tom Brady and the Patriots have not had the opportunity to present their case before an independent arbitrator. The Wells Report, as we now know, was not independent. His appeal was presented before Roger Goodell. Again, not independent. That's why a judge should preside over the case, because for the first time, Brady will be allowed to make his case before somebody who is actually neutral. Concerning the first point, honestly it doesn't matter. Players have no one to blame but themselves for where they are at. Concerning the court, I think we discussed way back when it should have went to an independent arbitrator. Not gonna scream bloody murder it didn't as it's his right to do what he did, but now we are where we are. Brady is guilty, yeah I know sucks to hear but it's the truth, at least in the NFL's eyes. The courts are only ruling on procedures. They aren't ruling guilty/innocent. That's already been done according to the courts. This is all about did the NFL follow the rules as set in the CBA, and from what I've seen and read and according to the cited case when it comes to collective bargaining, they did.
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Post by Seth Drakin of Monster Crap on Aug 10, 2015 20:31:15 GMT -5
1. Ben Volin of The Boston Globe is widely regarded (and often derided around New England) as one of the most critical, least team-friendly beat writers in the NFL. 2. No, his interpretation is not relevant. But just as irrelevant, according to the NFL's own argument, is Ted Wells' independence. "The NFLPA's contention that Paul, Weiss was not an "independent" investigator and that the Commissioner improperly delegated his fact-finding authority to Paul, Weiss is irrelevant." How the hell else are we supposed to interpret that as anything other than "The NFL bought and paid for a report knowing they were going to get the result they wanted."? That's why it should go to a judge, because from the first second that this ridiculous "scandal" hit social media, Tom Brady and the Patriots have not had the opportunity to present their case before an independent arbitrator. The Wells Report, as we now know, was not independent. His appeal was presented before Roger Goodell. Again, not independent. That's why a judge should preside over the case, because for the first time, Brady will be allowed to make his case before somebody who is actually neutral. Concerning the first point, honestly it doesn't matter. Players have no one to blame but themselves for where they are at. Concerning the court, I think we discussed way back when it should have went to an independent arbitrator. Not gonna scream bloody murder it didn't as it's his right to do what he did, but now we are where we are. Brady is guilty, yeah I know sucks to hear but it's the truth, at least in the NFL's eyes. The courts are only ruling on procedures. They aren't ruling guilty/innocent. That's already been done according to the courts. This is all about did the NFL follow the rules as set in the CBA, and from what I've seen and read and according to the cited case when it comes to collective bargaining, they did. In the NFL's eyes, the Saints players were guilty and it got overturned because guess who heard the original appeal, you guessed it....Mr. Goodell.
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Post by bluemeii on Aug 10, 2015 20:34:54 GMT -5
Concerning the first point, honestly it doesn't matter. Players have no one to blame but themselves for where they are at. Concerning the court, I think we discussed way back when it should have went to an independent arbitrator. Not gonna scream bloody murder it didn't as it's his right to do what he did, but now we are where we are. Brady is guilty, yeah I know sucks to hear but it's the truth, at least in the NFL's eyes. The courts are only ruling on procedures. They aren't ruling guilty/innocent. That's already been done according to the courts. This is all about did the NFL follow the rules as set in the CBA, and from what I've seen and read and according to the cited case when it comes to collective bargaining, they did. In the NFL's eyes, the Saints players were guilty and it got overturned because guess who heard the original appeal, you guessed it....Mr. Goodell. Sigh....the courts didn't overturn Bountygate and exonerate the players. It was a 3 man panel headed by ex comminsioner Tagliabue (sp.) who overturned the players suspensions. This is just going to a judge for procedural issues. This isn't a guilty/innocent thing now.
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Post by Seth Drakin of Monster Crap on Aug 10, 2015 20:36:15 GMT -5
In the NFL's eyes, the Saints players were guilty and it got overturned because guess who heard the original appeal, you guessed it....Mr. Goodell. Sigh....the courts didn't overturn Bountygate and exonerate the players. It was a 3 man panel headed by ex comminsioner Tagliabue (sp.) who overturned the players suspensions. This is just going to a judge for procedural issues. This isn't a guilty/innocent thing now. Do you remember why they had that 3 man panel to begin with? Because a judge told overturned the original appeal and told them to do it again.
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Post by bluemeii on Aug 10, 2015 20:41:49 GMT -5
Sigh....the courts didn't overturn Bountygate and exonerate the players. It was a 3 man panel headed by ex comminsioner Tagliabue (sp.) who overturned the players suspensions. This is just going to a judge for procedural issues. This isn't a guilty/innocent thing now. Do you remember why they had that 3 man panel to begin with? Because a judge told overturned the original appeal and told them to do it again. No that was the appeals hearing. A step that the NFLPA gave up in the latest CBA or they would have done the same for Deflategate. There was a parallel federal court case going on where the judge publicly stated that she was not comfortable deciding collectively bargained matters, and hoped the panel would rule before she had to. Also the 3 man panel wasn't ruling on their guilty innocence or anything like that. The panel was only ruling on if Goodell had the power to unilaterally punish the players under the current CBA. Here's a deadspin link for what actually happened deadspin.com/5941442/saints-players-bountygate-suspensions-overturned-on-appeal
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Post by Seth Drakin of Monster Crap on Aug 10, 2015 20:44:25 GMT -5
The suspension is getting lowered (I almost guarantee it) and when it happens, I hope you are going to be okay admitting you were wrong.
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BRV
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants him some Taco Flavored Kisses.
Posts: 16,867
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Post by BRV on Aug 10, 2015 20:46:32 GMT -5
Brady is guilty, yeah I know sucks to hear but it's the truth, at least in the NFL's eyes. The courts are only ruling on procedures. They aren't ruling guilty/innocent. That's already been done according to the courts. This is all about did the NFL follow the rules as set in the CBA, and from what I've seen and read and according to the cited case when it comes to collective bargaining, they did. Honestly, your first sentence is the biggest travesty of them all. "Brady is guilty." We don't know that to be a fact, but unfortunately it's far too late in the game for that to matter. In the court of public opinion, Tom Brady was guilty the moment Bob Kravitz's Tweet hit social media that Monday morning, and he was SUPER GUILTY the moment Chris Mortensen's factually-inaccurate Tweet hit social media two days later. In the eyes of the NFL, he was guilty in just about the same time frame, which is why they commissioned Ted Wells to produce the report they wanted him to create, then used that biased, one-sided, clearly-less-than-independent report to hand out the most ridiculous punishment in league history. Look, I get that few are going to shed any tears over Tom Brady. He's a handsome millionaire star athlete who is married to one of the most beautiful women on the planet, and he also just so happens to be a four-time Super Bowl champion, three-time Super Bowl MVP, and arguably the greatest quarterback to ever play the game. But the way he's been railroaded from day one of this farce is indisputable bullcrap. He and the Patriots have been fighting an uphill battle since the end of the AFC Championship Game, where they were guilty until proven innocent, and it's a whole hell of a lot harder to prove innocence than guilt, especially when some of the loudest voices screaming "YOU'RE GUILTY!" were the people he was appealing to.
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Post by bluemeii on Aug 10, 2015 20:48:17 GMT -5
The suspension is getting lowered (I almost guarantee it) and when it happens, I hope you are going to be okay admitting you were wrong. Oh I will. Unfortunately if it goes to the judge that can't happen. It'll be 4 or nothing, judge doesn't have the authority to impose sentence. I've said since the beginning 2 games and a team fine and be done with it. I'll ask the same question of you if it gets left as is?
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Professor Chaos
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Bringer of Destruction and Maker of Doom
Posts: 16,332
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Post by Professor Chaos on Aug 10, 2015 20:50:15 GMT -5
That Suisham injury is likely to cost the Steelers a few games this year, especially now that PAT's aren't automatic. Hope they can find a kicker worth a damn.
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Post by Toilet Paper Roll on Aug 10, 2015 20:52:34 GMT -5
I think it gets dropped to zero, I think 0 or 4 are the only options in play.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Aug 10, 2015 20:58:42 GMT -5
First, this isn't mod rule or anything like that so feel free to ignore it like everyone else that has begged for this to stop.
Jesus cannot we just quit it with this already. Pats' fans will never admit their team could so much as get a penalty let alone do this, the rest of the League will never see the Pats' for anything other than cheaters. Make any excuses you want for either side but the narrative is in stone. Brady looks guilty no matter how you spin it, the League looks guilty for how they have handled it no matter how anyone wants to spin it. For the love of God lets move on. Much Spygate, Bountygate, Bullygate, the Love Boat, and every other scandal, this will be forgotten about until another team screws up.
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Post by Seth Drakin of Monster Crap on Aug 10, 2015 21:06:21 GMT -5
First, this isn't mod rule or anything like that so feel free to ignore it like everyone else that has begged for this to stop. Jesus cannot we just quit it with this already. Pats' fans will never admit their team could so much as get a penalty let alone do this, the rest of the League will never see the Pats' for anything other than cheaters. Make any excuses you want for either side but the narrative is in stone. Brady looks guilty no matter how you spin it, the League looks guilty for how they have handled it no matter how anyone wants to spin it. For the love of God lets move on. Much Spygate, Bountygate, Bullygate, the Love Boat, and every other scandal, this will be forgotten about until another team screws up. Why do I have to keep reminding people that I am a Panthers fan?
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BRV
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants him some Taco Flavored Kisses.
Posts: 16,867
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Post by BRV on Aug 10, 2015 21:56:53 GMT -5
First, this isn't mod rule or anything like that so feel free to ignore it like everyone else that has begged for this to stop. Jesus cannot we just quit it with this already. Pats' fans will never admit their team could so much as get a penalty let alone do this, the rest of the League will never see the Pats' for anything other than cheaters. Make any excuses you want for either side but the narrative is in stone. Brady looks guilty no matter how you spin it, the League looks guilty for how they have handled it no matter how anyone wants to spin it. For the love of God lets move on. Much Spygate, Bountygate, Bullygate, the Love Boat, and every other scandal, this will be forgotten about until another team screws up. It's been the biggest sports story of the past few months. It's not like it can be ignored. And I think for the most part, both sides of the debate on this forum have been exceptionally civil. Sure, there's been occasional name-calling from both sides, but all things considered, we've been remarkably peaceful about this subject considering just how divisive it is.
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Dr. T is an alien
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I've been found out!
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Aug 10, 2015 22:40:42 GMT -5
Brady is guilty, yeah I know sucks to hear but it's the truth, at least in the NFL's eyes. The courts are only ruling on procedures. They aren't ruling guilty/innocent. That's already been done according to the courts. This is all about did the NFL follow the rules as set in the CBA, and from what I've seen and read and according to the cited case when it comes to collective bargaining, they did. Honestly, your first sentence is the biggest travesty of them all. "Brady is guilty." We don't know that to be a fact, but unfortunately it's far too late in the game for that to matter. In the court of public opinion, Tom Brady was guilty the moment Bob Kravitz's Tweet hit social media that Monday morning, and he was SUPER GUILTY the moment Chris Mortensen's factually-inaccurate Tweet hit social media two days later. In the eyes of the NFL, he was guilty in just about the same time frame, which is why they commissioned Ted Wells to produce the report they wanted him to create, then used that biased, one-sided, clearly-less-than-independent report to hand out the most ridiculous punishment in league history. Look, I get that few are going to shed any tears over Tom Brady. He's a handsome millionaire star athlete who is married to one of the most beautiful women on the planet, and he also just so happens to be a four-time Super Bowl champion, three-time Super Bowl MVP, and arguably the greatest quarterback to ever play the game. But the way he's been railroaded from day one of this farce is indisputable bullcrap. He and the Patriots have been fighting an uphill battle since the end of the AFC Championship Game, where they were guilty until proven innocent, and it's a whole hell of a lot harder to prove innocence than guilt, especially when some of the loudest voices screaming "YOU'RE GUILTY!" were the people he was appealing to. You don't know that Brady was guilty for a fact? Look, I am not saying that he committed some great crime, but it makes absolutely zero sense to suggest that he was not involved in some capacity. No one is going to alter the game balls without the starting QB giving his explicit permission, regardless of the team but especially a sure-fire HOF-bound QB. Again, to me there are two issues. The first is that the cover-up is far worse than the crime itself. Do you honestly think that this would have blown up the way that it did if Brady had elected to feign ignorance until after the Super Bowl and then admitted that he asked the game balls to be low, perhaps not realizing that the balls were already at the minimum when he asked as much (ignoring the fact that Drew Brees showed on a visit on Conan that he could estimate how inflated footballs were very accurately. Maybe Brady's not as astute in that aspect). Therefore, he could have even claimed that he unwittingly asked for the equipment guys to break the rule. That's understandable and it would have been understandable for the equipment guys to be unwilling to question a HOF-bound QB on this little thing. I would have suspected that he was lying, but now he has gone to such lengths that I want to say that he is so full of shit that his eyes are brown. I want him punished on principle alone now, especially when it does not appear that he was as cooperative with the investigation as the NFL would like. That brings me to the other problem. This was not something that was explicitly covered in the CBA. Sure, there is a rule regarding the team not using balls that are not standard, but conspiracy to alter balls after they are inspected was probably something that no one ever expected to need to have a set punishment for. Had this been a thing that the NFLPA thought to cover in the CBA, it probably would have been a 1-2 game suspension at most. However, since there is no such set punishment and no real precedent to follow, the closest precedent for deliberately engaging in a continued attempt to gain a competitive edge by cheating is the use of PEDs, for which the first offense earns one a 4 game suspension. Again, I wanted him punished on principle. Had it been a 1-2 suspension, I would have been fine with it. Instead, it matches the same punishment that a player gets for PEDs, which is also acceptable to me. Had he gotten more, then I would say that there is something to legitimately complain about.
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Post by Seth Drakin of Monster Crap on Aug 10, 2015 22:54:37 GMT -5
Honestly, your first sentence is the biggest travesty of them all. "Brady is guilty." We don't know that to be a fact, but unfortunately it's far too late in the game for that to matter. In the court of public opinion, Tom Brady was guilty the moment Bob Kravitz's Tweet hit social media that Monday morning, and he was SUPER GUILTY the moment Chris Mortensen's factually-inaccurate Tweet hit social media two days later. In the eyes of the NFL, he was guilty in just about the same time frame, which is why they commissioned Ted Wells to produce the report they wanted him to create, then used that biased, one-sided, clearly-less-than-independent report to hand out the most ridiculous punishment in league history. Look, I get that few are going to shed any tears over Tom Brady. He's a handsome millionaire star athlete who is married to one of the most beautiful women on the planet, and he also just so happens to be a four-time Super Bowl champion, three-time Super Bowl MVP, and arguably the greatest quarterback to ever play the game. But the way he's been railroaded from day one of this farce is indisputable bullcrap. He and the Patriots have been fighting an uphill battle since the end of the AFC Championship Game, where they were guilty until proven innocent, and it's a whole hell of a lot harder to prove innocence than guilt, especially when some of the loudest voices screaming "YOU'RE GUILTY!" were the people he was appealing to. You don't know that Brady was guilty for a fact? Look, I am not saying that he committed some great crime, but it makes absolutely zero sense to suggest that he was not involved in some capacity. No one is going to alter the game balls without the starting QB giving his explicit permission, regardless of the team but especially a sure-fire HOF-bound QB. Again, to me there are two issues. The first is that the cover-up is far worse than the crime itself. Do you honestly think that this would have blown up the way that it did if Brady had elected to feign ignorance until after the Super Bowl and then admitted that he asked the game balls to be low, perhaps not realizing that the balls were already at the minimum when he asked as much (ignoring the fact that Drew Brees showed on a visit on Conan that he could estimate how inflated footballs were very accurately. Maybe Brady's not as astute in that aspect). Therefore, he could have even claimed that he unwittingly asked for the equipment guys to break the rule. That's understandable and it would have been understandable for the equipment guys to be unwilling to question a HOF-bound QB on this little thing. I would have suspected that he was lying, but now he has gone to such lengths that I want to say that he is so full of shit that his eyes are brown. I want him punished on principle alone now, especially when it does not appear that he was as cooperative with the investigation as the NFL would like. That brings me to the other problem. This was not something that was explicitly covered in the CBA. Sure, there is a rule regarding the team not using balls that are not standard, but conspiracy to alter balls after they are inspected was probably something that no one ever expected to need to have a set punishment for. Had this been a thing that the NFLPA thought to cover in the CBA, it probably would have been a 1-2 game suspension at most. However, since there is no such set punishment and no real precedent to follow, the closest precedent for deliberately engaging in a continued attempt to gain a competitive edge by cheating is the use of PEDs, for which the first offense earns one a 4 game suspension. Again, I wanted him punished on principle. Had it been a 1-2 suspension, I would have been fine with it. Instead, it matches the same punishment that a player gets for PEDs, which is also acceptable to me. Had he gotten more, then I would say that there is something to legitimately complain about. If he came out and said that immediately, the commissioner (with clamor from the other owners) would have tried to suspend him for the Super Bowl. And he would have suspended him 4 games also. You know they would have done this. This was easily the other owners looking for blood because they could not win and this was an easy excuse for them to blame their lack of success on. If they had done this and lost, no suspension would have happened....I guarantee it.
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Post by Pooh Carlson on Aug 10, 2015 23:20:47 GMT -5
What Dr. T said. All of it. To say that Tom Brady is 100% innocent defies all logic and reason. When a number of quarterbacks have come out and explained just how far into the details of how they want their gameballs, I refuse to believe that Brady doesn't know exactly how he likes them inflated. He even talks about how he likes the balls to feel in the appeal hearing but he claims to have NEVER EVER EVER NEVER talked about PSI levels EVER. I don't believe it. He wants them to feel a certain way and even complained when they felt too hard and had too much air in them. If this dude is gonna go through a hundred different balls to pick out the 20 he likes, why would he have all different types of PSI levels mixed in when he has a precise way he wants the surface to feel to begin with.
Logic. Reason. Things that quite a few NFL fans seem to be lacking.
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